Bilbo

I saw Yes a couple of times in the 80s, once woth Anderson and once with the Buggles' crowd. Whilst I recall being appalled at the Buggles idea, I bought the LP and there is some strong material on there. Its in no way a dead duck and I prefer it to 90125. It was the Trevor Rabin line-up that killed it for me. It lost a lot of its 'proginess' for me, like post ABACAB Genesis. I love all the stuff from Yes, Time and A Word, The Yes Album, Fragile, Close To The Edge, TAles of Topographic, RElayer, Going For The One, Tormato and Drama - its all great stuff. What is interesting, though, is that I bought all the solo LPs; Olias, BEginnings etc but the very last one I bought, because it didn't appeal to me, was Bruford's Feels Good To Me which, in a nutshell, got me into fusion and jazz. Jeff Berlin and Allan Holdsworth immediately made me realise how much more there was to virtuosity than what Howe and Squire were offering.

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='658864' date='Nov 19 2009, 08:16 AM']My original thought was this: You are a reader, and suddenly get a call to dep for a show or session, where you have never heard the tunes before, and circumstances don't allow you to do so. Would the dots and rests and accents signpost you enough to be able to play the music as it was originally intended to sound and feel?[/quote] If I get called at short notice for a reading gig that is pop, funk or rock orientated, I will have no trouble fitting in. If the call was for something orchestral, I would be out of my depth completely. Its not the dots that makes the gig a runner, its the genre. You don't necessarily need to know every pop tune or rock tune etc to pull it off. You need to know the 'default' variable of the genre. If I get a call for a Latin gig, I can deliver because I have digested most Latin sub genres. I may not know the tunes but I will know how to play a samba, a bossa, xote or guaguanco which are some groove types in Latin music. Its no different that if someone says it a swing tune, or a shuffle or a ballad. Each song form has its own protocols that determine the varaibles within which you will be expected to work. It doesn't mean you can't throw in something fresh or original but it does give you a sense of what the core expectations are. It all gets more complicated the more folkloric the material is. So, if a Brazillian singer/ guitarist says 'bossa', it will be different that a jazz pianist saying the same thing. So there are levels of competence from good enough to great depending on levels of professionalism required. Often the dots are like a script. They tell you what to say but it is up to you, the interpreter of those dots, to make it live and breath; like a great actor reading that script vs. a layman just reciting it in a monotone.

Its not just about the dots. Its also about understanding the genre you are playing in. A classical player who can read anything cannot just go into a jazz or a rock session and make it happen without some comprehension of the medium they are engaging with. I had a BBC Welsh Symphony Orchestra first bassist dep for me in a big band once (his call) but, despite reading every note 'correctly' he didn't come even close to swinging. If you ever read a classical score along with the music being played, you will quickly realise that the dots are only a part of the story. You have to know the genre.

Met him once in Cardiff. Impeccable technique and a joy to watch. He will be missed.

[quote name='RhysP' post='655210' date='Nov 15 2009, 02:45 PM']It looks like it was designed by Picasso.[/quote] From Wikipedia 'Metheny plays a custom-made Pikasso I created by Canadian luthier Linda Manzer on "Into the Dream" and on the albums Quartet, Imaginary Day, Jim Hall & Pat Metheny, Trio->Live, and the Speaking of Now Live and Imaginary Day DVDs. Metheny has also used the guitar in his guest appearances on other artist's albums. Manzer has also made many acoustic guitars for Metheny, including a mini guitar, an acoustic sitar guitar, and also the baritone guitar, which Metheny used for the recording of One Quiet Night. His latest use of the Pikasso is found on the album Metheny Mehldau Quartet, his second collaboration with pianist Brad Mehldau and his trio sidemen Larry Grenadier and Jeff Ballard; the Pikasso is featured on Metheny's impressionistic composition "The Sound of Water."' So your reference to Picasso was more accurate than you thought. It does sound remarkable but I am not wholly convinced of its versatility/practical applications.

[quote name='Cairobill' post='655984' date='Nov 16 2009, 02:36 PM']Rufus Reid DVD for 16 quid! Buy it now, it's all in there... [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Evolving-Bassist-Rufus-Reid/dp/0757915655/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258382107&sr=8-3"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Evolving-Bassist-R...2107&sr=8-3[/url][/quote] Could be worth a look - I have had the book for 25 years!

[quote name='jakesbass' post='655825' date='Nov 16 2009, 11:29 AM']Enjoy, you will prosper spiritually on it as it is the natural home of your second love (assuming your significant other is 1st) Jake[/quote] I wish I was still living in Farnham and could come to you for lessons (I used to live in Field End, Badshot Lea, on the old Aldershot Road). Would have saved me some grief. I was actually living there when I had my bad experience (you weren't there that far back - I left in 2002/3). I am already struggling to find a teacher up here (Google is proving unhelpful!!) but am determined to be patient and do this right. PS am listening to James Taylor as I write - that's your fault too!

Some of you may recall that I have posted here reporting a bad experience with the DB and discussed some injuries I have sustained which still cause me some twinges and aches. Well, an opportunity to try the instrument again has dropped in my lap and I wanted to hear some concensus from double bass players who have learned the instrument later in life (i.e. not a a child but as an adult learner). I am hoping to get a sense of whether I can go at this again without further difficulties or without aggravating existing issues (currently feeling quite minor). It would be my intention to get a tutor and not try and go it alone but I guess my question is, can you learn the double bass later in life without going through the pain and misery of aching limbs, bad backs and bleeding callouses I'd really like to do this but am anxious that I may be making a rod for my own back. How did others fare?

17 years....

[quote name='jacko' post='651994' date='Nov 11 2009, 09:08 PM']Why not? Just because you think isherwood and mailer are better doesn't mean anyone else will neccessarilly agree with you. What one person thinks is good another person will think is pish as sure as eggs are eggs. like I said, music is not a competetive sport so there can be no winners or losers, only participants. Ok... I may have a preference for a certain player but it certainly doesn't mean that person is any better than someone who's music I don't like.. If the thread had been entitled 'favourite british bassist' then I think the discussion would be a whole lot more valid (although I have to say my favourite changes from day to day depending on mood and what I've been listening to).[/quote] I have no preference for Isherwood or Mailer. My point is that a discussion on 'better' is as valid as one on 'favourite', arguably more so. Of course its not a competition but a comparison of skills, creativity, originality, core skills etc etc is more valid that one of 'sales'. The 'its all good' argument is a denial of passion and surrenders to the kind of ambivalence that results in mediocrity. I don't care who anyone likes or dislikes but I do want to know what people think about other people's playing. 'It's all good' is not an opinion. It is the absence of one. I want to know what folks think not what they don't!!

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='651952' date='Nov 11 2009, 08:25 PM']I really like your lists Bilbo, they've cost me a fortune at iTunes and Amazon but I've heard a lot of new music. [/quote] Then my work here is done... (I'm filling up )

[quote name='jacko' post='651830' date='Nov 11 2009, 05:56 PM']Music is an art form, not a competition. We're all going to have our own preferences so there's no real way we can say one player is better than the other.[/quote] Disagree.... We can all argue over Christopher Isherwood vs Norman Mailer or Shakespeare vs Brecht but noone is going to say Jeffery Archer is a better novelist or Victoria Wood a better playwrite. There are obviously sujective elements to it but it is perfectly defensible to argue that a is better than b. Otherwise everything is great and it most certainly is not. Am I the only one here who sees the value in debate? Some folk seem to think the only 'cool' space to be in is to live and let live and agree that everything is brilliant. Serene but BORING Maybe its a Welsh thing?

That Two Against Nature dvd was what got me into them a couple of years ago. Saw it, loved it, bought it, and several cds since. And I'm a jazz nazi. The interviews are a joke. Lighten up!

I use an Eden Metro for all gigs (jazz/rovk/funk/pop/big band) and an SWR/GK MB112 hybrid for small rehearsals. The SWR/GK just doesn't but it for live work. I have looked at the Markbass stuff and, whilst I liked it, I didn't find myself coveting it. I'll stick to the Eden for now - I think it does the job admirably and everyone I play with says it sounds great so why change.

Sorry, peeps, its my autism (although these are all really big names in jazz - or is that an oxymoron ) Staying with Katy Lied, I love the vocal harmonies on Dr. Wu....

Try getting someone else to play your bass without changing any settings on your bass or amp. If they 'click' too, maybe its your set up. Sounds like a mixture of techique issues and eq problems to me. Tough to say without hearing you play.

My favourite Dan CD is Katy Lied. I am not their no.1 fan by any means and only got into them a couple of years ago so don't think there is any nostalgia involved (I'm 46).

For the record: Motown was a Detroit based record company and the jazz scene in Detroit was, arguably, second only to New York for its influence on Jazz overall. Paul Chambers, Ron Carter, Kenny Burrell, Hank Jones, Thad Jones, Elvin Jones, Milt Jackson, Yusef Lateef, Barry Harris, Pepper Adams, Curtis Fuller, Doug Watkins, Kenny, McKinley's Cotton Pickers, the Jean Goldkette Orchestra, Marcus Belgrave, Earl Klugh, Kenny Garrett, James Carter, Geri Allen, Donald Byrd, Tommy Flanagan, Al McKibbon (3 of Miles' bass players were from Detroit), Sir Roland Hanna... The Funk Brothers drank the same water and couldn't but have been influenced by that environment. This is all covered in detail in Lars Bjorn and Jim Gallert's 'Before Motown: A History of Jazz in Detroit 1920 - 1960. [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Before-Motown-History-Detroit-1920-60/dp/0472067656/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257940017&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Before-Motown-Hist...0017&sr=1-1[/url] Jim was particularly helpful in my research on Paul Chambers so buy his book. Now.

One of the hardest things I find about playing the bass is learning how to serve the music rather than one's own egocentricity. I have learned over the years to deeply value to wonder of a simple root note. I have also learned to appreciate the value of understanding that the length of the note is important, where it ENDS as well as where it begins. Then there is the tone of the note, the rhythms and the dynamics you can use to make a line sing. And, against all of that, you have to contextualise it in the music you are performing at any given time. One of the difficult things about trying to learn to explore more complex ideas is that you inevitably want to try them whenever you are playing music. The trouble is, most music doesn't require the complex utilisation of modes and root/five does the job more than adequately. You need to learn to love the simple things that make the music work. Learning WHEN to and when NOT TO get clever is as important as learning what to do when you enter that territory.

Jake is absolutely right in contextualising the merits of Motown. I have absolutely no problem acknowledging the success of what these artists produced and its purpose and place in the market. Its historical and sociological contribution is discussed in detail elsewhere but that's not what I was attacking. My point was only to highlight the fact that a great bassline will not turn a piece of music I don't like into one that I do. If I don't like 'My Girl', it has nothing to do with the relative merits of its bassline. In superficial terms (i.e. on the basis that Jake believes this material was produced - it feels good, it's not taxing, it's light natured etc), it doesn't 'do it' for me, Jamerson or not. I find the same applies to most Motown. There are plenty of simple pieces that I love, most of which have no strong 'technical' elements to their production, just the right notes and the right chords in the right order etc. My favourite pieces are almost always not Jazz/Fusion/techncial/complex - they are simple pieces that move me. In a nutshell, the magic ingredient that is there in the pieces of music that effect me emotionally are seldom, if ever, there in Motown. To my ears, its mostly bubblegum and a great bass line doesn't make it otherwise. That, and only that, was my point.

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='650714' date='Nov 10 2009, 03:11 PM']Tedious, tosh, formulaic...reminds me of a lot of 'smooth' jazz.[/quote] Doesn't it? Tosh is tosh. Give it whatever label you like - you can't polish a turd Lighten up, guys!. I don't like Motown. Its not a crime.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='650640' date='Nov 10 2009, 02:00 PM']Like the football analogy is any less useful than Bilbo using Branford Marsalis as an example![/quote] There is a transcription of the part in two different places on this Forum and you can hear the track on Spotify. Do I have to do ALL of the work for you.......

I think you are hitting on an important point here, Golchen. What is the purpose of the bass part in a musical performance? Sometimes its role is harmonic, a means of helping the performers DEFINE the harmonic movement in a piece. Bach's Air on a G-string would be a case in point. Or the bass part of 'O Solitude' off Branford Marsalis' 'Braggtown' cd: totally functional. Sometimes its role is partly melodic (Pino's part on 'Wherever I Lay My Hat' or Jaco's on 'A Remark You Made' for instance). But often, its role is to give some rhythmic momentum to the performance, some energy. That's when you get those great percolating lines that funk players use a lot. Of course, the role of the bass in each genre is also to take its place alongside other instruments in a given ensemble and to asist those other instruments in creating an overall effect. In reggae, for instance, the bass, bassd rum and skanking guitar parts are totally interdependent in terms of creating 'that' feel. Some more sophisticated playing happens when the purpose of each line is defined by the requirements of supporting a soloist 'in the moment', complex lines created as a back drop to music being created in real time, helping to increase tension or release as part of a musical dialogue. That's when it gets harder. So, when a bass player goes off on one with some heavy duty lines, s/he'd better have some musical purpose in mind other that to impress the bass players in the audience. If that is all s/he is trying to do, it will show in an instant, all the bass players will go 'ooooo' and all the real musicians will leave, never to return!! The lay punters probably won't notice either way . Actually, they will either like the band or not on the basis of the overall grooves but certainly not because the bass player is s*** hot.

[quote name='chris_b' post='650469' date='Nov 10 2009, 11:10 AM']Now look what you've all gone and done!! Bilbo's off on one again![/quote] Its a hobby. Keeps me out of trouble

I googled a list of Jamerson tunes and took out the ones I liked or hadn't heard. My point is not to dismiss a whole genre but to simply point out that, on an entirely subjective basis, great lines played by a great player won't make me 'like' material that I find a bit icky. 'My Girl' fails to move me in any way whatsoever. 'Jimmy Mack' is a load of old tosh 'Please Mr Postman'/ PLEEEEASE! It ain't rocket science. What this is is the Stock Aitken and Waterman of its day. Formulaic, repetitious, music as factory work. You like it because you are familiar with it and may have some emotional connection with it for some reason. I don't. I look at it as a part of the whole catalogue of available musics and I don't rate it that highly. I don't own any Motown material at all and don't want to. You can't avoid hearing it - its everywhere but I find most of it superficial and tedious. I play several of these Motown tunes in function bands: I Want You Back is one, a couple of Stevie Wonder tunes etc. Its ok and it goes down well but great music? I don't believe so. Before the bricks start flying, remember: my opinions don't mean squat and certainly don't mean that you can't like it just as much as you did before I wrote this