Bilbo

Some of you may recall that I have posted here reporting a bad experience with the DB and discussed some injuries I have sustained which still cause me some twinges and aches. Well, an opportunity to try the instrument again has dropped in my lap and I wanted to hear some concensus from double bass players who have learned the instrument later in life (i.e. not a a child but as an adult learner). I am hoping to get a sense of whether I can go at this again without further difficulties or without aggravating existing issues (currently feeling quite minor). It would be my intention to get a tutor and not try and go it alone but I guess my question is, can you learn the double bass later in life without going through the pain and misery of aching limbs, bad backs and bleeding callouses I'd really like to do this but am anxious that I may be making a rod for my own back. How did others fare?

17 years....

[quote name='jacko' post='651994' date='Nov 11 2009, 09:08 PM']Why not? Just because you think isherwood and mailer are better doesn't mean anyone else will neccessarilly agree with you. What one person thinks is good another person will think is pish as sure as eggs are eggs. like I said, music is not a competetive sport so there can be no winners or losers, only participants. Ok... I may have a preference for a certain player but it certainly doesn't mean that person is any better than someone who's music I don't like.. If the thread had been entitled 'favourite british bassist' then I think the discussion would be a whole lot more valid (although I have to say my favourite changes from day to day depending on mood and what I've been listening to).[/quote] I have no preference for Isherwood or Mailer. My point is that a discussion on 'better' is as valid as one on 'favourite', arguably more so. Of course its not a competition but a comparison of skills, creativity, originality, core skills etc etc is more valid that one of 'sales'. The 'its all good' argument is a denial of passion and surrenders to the kind of ambivalence that results in mediocrity. I don't care who anyone likes or dislikes but I do want to know what people think about other people's playing. 'It's all good' is not an opinion. It is the absence of one. I want to know what folks think not what they don't!!

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='651952' date='Nov 11 2009, 08:25 PM']I really like your lists Bilbo, they've cost me a fortune at iTunes and Amazon but I've heard a lot of new music. [/quote] Then my work here is done... (I'm filling up )

[quote name='jacko' post='651830' date='Nov 11 2009, 05:56 PM']Music is an art form, not a competition. We're all going to have our own preferences so there's no real way we can say one player is better than the other.[/quote] Disagree.... We can all argue over Christopher Isherwood vs Norman Mailer or Shakespeare vs Brecht but noone is going to say Jeffery Archer is a better novelist or Victoria Wood a better playwrite. There are obviously sujective elements to it but it is perfectly defensible to argue that a is better than b. Otherwise everything is great and it most certainly is not. Am I the only one here who sees the value in debate? Some folk seem to think the only 'cool' space to be in is to live and let live and agree that everything is brilliant. Serene but BORING Maybe its a Welsh thing?

That Two Against Nature dvd was what got me into them a couple of years ago. Saw it, loved it, bought it, and several cds since. And I'm a jazz nazi. The interviews are a joke. Lighten up!

I use an Eden Metro for all gigs (jazz/rovk/funk/pop/big band) and an SWR/GK MB112 hybrid for small rehearsals. The SWR/GK just doesn't but it for live work. I have looked at the Markbass stuff and, whilst I liked it, I didn't find myself coveting it. I'll stick to the Eden for now - I think it does the job admirably and everyone I play with says it sounds great so why change.

Sorry, peeps, its my autism (although these are all really big names in jazz - or is that an oxymoron ) Staying with Katy Lied, I love the vocal harmonies on Dr. Wu....

Try getting someone else to play your bass without changing any settings on your bass or amp. If they 'click' too, maybe its your set up. Sounds like a mixture of techique issues and eq problems to me. Tough to say without hearing you play.

My favourite Dan CD is Katy Lied. I am not their no.1 fan by any means and only got into them a couple of years ago so don't think there is any nostalgia involved (I'm 46).

For the record: Motown was a Detroit based record company and the jazz scene in Detroit was, arguably, second only to New York for its influence on Jazz overall. Paul Chambers, Ron Carter, Kenny Burrell, Hank Jones, Thad Jones, Elvin Jones, Milt Jackson, Yusef Lateef, Barry Harris, Pepper Adams, Curtis Fuller, Doug Watkins, Kenny, McKinley's Cotton Pickers, the Jean Goldkette Orchestra, Marcus Belgrave, Earl Klugh, Kenny Garrett, James Carter, Geri Allen, Donald Byrd, Tommy Flanagan, Al McKibbon (3 of Miles' bass players were from Detroit), Sir Roland Hanna... The Funk Brothers drank the same water and couldn't but have been influenced by that environment. This is all covered in detail in Lars Bjorn and Jim Gallert's 'Before Motown: A History of Jazz in Detroit 1920 - 1960. [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Before-Motown-History-Detroit-1920-60/dp/0472067656/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257940017&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Before-Motown-Hist...0017&sr=1-1[/url] Jim was particularly helpful in my research on Paul Chambers so buy his book. Now.

One of the hardest things I find about playing the bass is learning how to serve the music rather than one's own egocentricity. I have learned over the years to deeply value to wonder of a simple root note. I have also learned to appreciate the value of understanding that the length of the note is important, where it ENDS as well as where it begins. Then there is the tone of the note, the rhythms and the dynamics you can use to make a line sing. And, against all of that, you have to contextualise it in the music you are performing at any given time. One of the difficult things about trying to learn to explore more complex ideas is that you inevitably want to try them whenever you are playing music. The trouble is, most music doesn't require the complex utilisation of modes and root/five does the job more than adequately. You need to learn to love the simple things that make the music work. Learning WHEN to and when NOT TO get clever is as important as learning what to do when you enter that territory.

Jake is absolutely right in contextualising the merits of Motown. I have absolutely no problem acknowledging the success of what these artists produced and its purpose and place in the market. Its historical and sociological contribution is discussed in detail elsewhere but that's not what I was attacking. My point was only to highlight the fact that a great bassline will not turn a piece of music I don't like into one that I do. If I don't like 'My Girl', it has nothing to do with the relative merits of its bassline. In superficial terms (i.e. on the basis that Jake believes this material was produced - it feels good, it's not taxing, it's light natured etc), it doesn't 'do it' for me, Jamerson or not. I find the same applies to most Motown. There are plenty of simple pieces that I love, most of which have no strong 'technical' elements to their production, just the right notes and the right chords in the right order etc. My favourite pieces are almost always not Jazz/Fusion/techncial/complex - they are simple pieces that move me. In a nutshell, the magic ingredient that is there in the pieces of music that effect me emotionally are seldom, if ever, there in Motown. To my ears, its mostly bubblegum and a great bass line doesn't make it otherwise. That, and only that, was my point.

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='650714' date='Nov 10 2009, 03:11 PM']Tedious, tosh, formulaic...reminds me of a lot of 'smooth' jazz.[/quote] Doesn't it? Tosh is tosh. Give it whatever label you like - you can't polish a turd Lighten up, guys!. I don't like Motown. Its not a crime.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='650640' date='Nov 10 2009, 02:00 PM']Like the football analogy is any less useful than Bilbo using Branford Marsalis as an example![/quote] There is a transcription of the part in two different places on this Forum and you can hear the track on Spotify. Do I have to do ALL of the work for you.......

I think you are hitting on an important point here, Golchen. What is the purpose of the bass part in a musical performance? Sometimes its role is harmonic, a means of helping the performers DEFINE the harmonic movement in a piece. Bach's Air on a G-string would be a case in point. Or the bass part of 'O Solitude' off Branford Marsalis' 'Braggtown' cd: totally functional. Sometimes its role is partly melodic (Pino's part on 'Wherever I Lay My Hat' or Jaco's on 'A Remark You Made' for instance). But often, its role is to give some rhythmic momentum to the performance, some energy. That's when you get those great percolating lines that funk players use a lot. Of course, the role of the bass in each genre is also to take its place alongside other instruments in a given ensemble and to asist those other instruments in creating an overall effect. In reggae, for instance, the bass, bassd rum and skanking guitar parts are totally interdependent in terms of creating 'that' feel. Some more sophisticated playing happens when the purpose of each line is defined by the requirements of supporting a soloist 'in the moment', complex lines created as a back drop to music being created in real time, helping to increase tension or release as part of a musical dialogue. That's when it gets harder. So, when a bass player goes off on one with some heavy duty lines, s/he'd better have some musical purpose in mind other that to impress the bass players in the audience. If that is all s/he is trying to do, it will show in an instant, all the bass players will go 'ooooo' and all the real musicians will leave, never to return!! The lay punters probably won't notice either way . Actually, they will either like the band or not on the basis of the overall grooves but certainly not because the bass player is s*** hot.

[quote name='chris_b' post='650469' date='Nov 10 2009, 11:10 AM']Now look what you've all gone and done!! Bilbo's off on one again![/quote] Its a hobby. Keeps me out of trouble

I googled a list of Jamerson tunes and took out the ones I liked or hadn't heard. My point is not to dismiss a whole genre but to simply point out that, on an entirely subjective basis, great lines played by a great player won't make me 'like' material that I find a bit icky. 'My Girl' fails to move me in any way whatsoever. 'Jimmy Mack' is a load of old tosh 'Please Mr Postman'/ PLEEEEASE! It ain't rocket science. What this is is the Stock Aitken and Waterman of its day. Formulaic, repetitious, music as factory work. You like it because you are familiar with it and may have some emotional connection with it for some reason. I don't. I look at it as a part of the whole catalogue of available musics and I don't rate it that highly. I don't own any Motown material at all and don't want to. You can't avoid hearing it - its everywhere but I find most of it superficial and tedious. I play several of these Motown tunes in function bands: I Want You Back is one, a couple of Stevie Wonder tunes etc. Its ok and it goes down well but great music? I don't believe so. Before the bricks start flying, remember: my opinions don't mean squat and certainly don't mean that you can't like it just as much as you did before I wrote this

[quote name='beerdragon' post='650008' date='Nov 9 2009, 07:54 PM']I agree with most of the stuff you post on here Bilbo. but that's got me scratching my head. could you give me an example of the lousy material?[/quote] My Girl - Temptations Ooh Baby Baby - The Miracles To Many Fish In The Sea - The Marvelettes Heat Wave - Martha & The Vandellas This Old Heart Of Mine - Isley Brothers Where Did Our Love Go (U) - Diana/Supremes My Guy - Mary Wells Dancing In The Streets - Martha & The Vandellas Don't Mess With Bill - The Marvelettes Mickey's Monkey (U) - The Miracles Cloud Nine - Temptations My Baby Loves Me - Martha & The Vandellas Little Darling (I Need You) - 4 Tops I'm Ready For Love The Way You Do The Things You Do - Temptations You're All I Need To Get By - Temptations You Can't Hurry Love - Diana/Supremes Shop Around - The Miracles Take Me In Your Arms (And Rock Me A Little While) - Brenda Holloway My Baby Must Be A Magician - The Marvelettes Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart - Diana/Supremes Beauty Is Only Skin Deep - Temptations Going To A Go-Go - The Miracles Hitch Hike - Marvin Gaye I Second That Emotion - The Miracles Please Mr. Postman - The Marvelettes Jmmy Mack - Martha & The Vandellas Shake Me, Wake Me (When It's Over) - 4 Tops I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Temptations Get Ready - Temptations Stop! In The Name Of Love - Diana/Supremes Nowhere To Run - Martha & The Vandellas Seven Rooms Of Gloom - 4 Tops Pride & Joy - Marvin Gaye (I Know) I'm Losing You - Temptations Two Lovers - Mary Wells I'll Turn To Stone - 4 Tops Come See About Me - Diana/Supremes If I Were your Woman Gladys Knight & The Pips My World Is Empty Without You - Diana/Supremes The Tracks Of My Tears - The Miracles Can I Get A Witness - Marvin Gaye The Girls Alright With Me - Temptations Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Da Day - Stevie Wonder Reflections - Diana/Supremes What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted - Jimmy Ruffin Quicksand... - Martha & The Vandellas Reach Out...I'll Be There - 4 Tops You Beat Me To The Punch - Mary Wells The Bells - The Originals All in the Game - Four Tops My Baby - Temptations This Old Heart Of Mine - Isley Brothers My Whole World Ended (The Moment You Left) - David Ruffin It Takes Two - Marvin Gaye/Tammy Terrell To Busy Thinking About My Baby - Marvin Gaye When Your Young And In Love - Marvelettes I Were Your Woman - Gladys Knight & the Pips It's Growing - The Temptations I Can't Get Next To You - Temptations Heart Breaking Guy - Supremes Mostly bubblegum and dross. Some great lines on paper but not great songs by my standards. You are allowed to disagree (how big of me) but that's what I think.

I think that that is the Dan's appeal. The material is sophisticated and accessible at the same time. Like Pat Metheny, it lets you sing along without realising how bloody hard it is to write and perform. I haven't heard any Dan lines I couldn't play. Some I wouldn't ahve WRITTEN, yes, but none I couldn't play. And I agree - a great/complex bassline is not enough to make a song great. I said it elsewhere: James Jamerson - great player on lousy material!

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Yeah, but its the ONLY thing he can play. Can't make 'House of the Rising Sun', 'Wipeout', 'Chopsticks' or 'The Chain'..... Astonishing.

Unmarked - so I can maintain my intonation with my ears and not my eyes. So I can play in the dark.....

In around 1986, I used to be in a Chepstow based band called Silent Partner with Grant Nicholas from Feeder and a guitarist/keyboard player called Brian Sperber. Brian was American and we used to argue like cat and dog about everything - to be fair, it was his band but I was really arrogant then and liked to pick arguments . Needless to say, the band broke up (musical differences - I was musical, Brian was different) and we all went our seperate ways. Without my knowledge, Grant went on to play in bands called Multi Story, Temper Temper, Raindance and then formed Feeder. Brian went back to America and I never heard what he was up to (although he did ring me from the US one night at 4 a.m. to see what I was doing - 'sleeping' I said!!!). Many years later (2000/01?), I started work as Manager of a Probation Hostel in Kew in S. W. London. One of the hostel wardens was a drummer and, over the years I was there, we would often talk about music. Amongst other things, he turned me onto an LP called 'Straight On Till Morning' by Blues Traveller (recommended). He had lent me the CD and I had taped it and given him the cd back. I was particularly drawn to a track called 'Yours', a heavy ballad-type thing with some great lyrics. I listened to the cassette for a long time and then lent it to my nephew because he was a developing guitarist and I thought he would like it. I never saw it again. I was living in Farnham at the time and started doing jazz gigs around that area. I hooked up with, amongst others, a drummer from Reading called Julian Bown. We did some regular jazz gigs near Bracknell and used to talk between sets. The subject of early bands came up and I mentioned that I used to play with Grant Nicholas. 'You're s***ing me'? says Julian. 'No' says I. Apparently, Julian was Jon Lee's first call dep drummer for Feeder and had played with the band many times if Jon couldn't do it. He was able to pass on a 'hello' to Grant for me (Julian has since worked with Nik Kershaw and was on at least one of Kershaw's cds). Roll forward to 2008. I decided I would like to get a copy of that Blues Traveller CD again (so no nagging about the cassette, please ) so went onto Amazon to buy it. It arrived a few days later and I listened to it straight away and loved it all over again. After a few more listens over a few more months, I got hold of my first mp3 player and decided to put some of the tracks onto my PC to transfer it onto the player. As I was copying the disc, and for the first time ever, I read the production credits. Who was the engineer on 'Yours' and who has also worked with Moby, Whitney Houston and Ric Ocasek of The Cars? Brian bloody Sperber.... What's the chances of all that happening?

I actually find that the biggest issue with reading music is acquiring the concentration and focus required to remember that this what you are doing and not letting your mind wander. Its particularly bad when you are practising. I find that trying to read stuff whilst playing along with the music is the best way of learning the discipline as the thing about keeping going is so true. I agree that a rhythmically strong wrong note is often more use than a weak right note (loud, confident and wrong, as one wise colleague said to me once). Creating the right groove is often more important than hitting the right notes and, if you lose your place in a reading gig, its often best to rely on your ear and knowledge of grooves to get you back on course. But all of this is learned by the consistent application of effort: the doing of the thing. Read, read and read some more. As OTPJ says read it, don't learn it. You don't need to know it because its written down! If you know it, you aren't reading it. It is sometimes interesting to check progress by reading a melody that you know by ear but have never played and playing it 'cold'. You will often realise that you are getting better quicker that you think. Big issue, however, is the old key signature. So much music is written in Bb, F and C that, when you get a key change or a chart in Gb, you realise your skills base is shaky. Another one is gettign used to counting and odd bar that is 'out of kilter' with the general times signature; a bar of 2 in a 4:4 chart etc. Its all good stuff, tho. Practice, practice, practice.