Bilbo

[quote name='OldGit' post='294345' date='Sep 29 2008, 09:48 AM']Ok some research needed .. What might be the best Jeff Berlin tracks to listen to?[/quote] 'Palewell Park' off Bruford's 'Gradually Going Tornado' 'Tokyo Dream' off Allan Holdsworth's 'Road Games'

I reckon its the colour of the strings that you are reacting to. The harmonies during the opening are diatonic and the voicings are in unison. The fact is that the tone/timbre of something can have a massive effect on its emotional content. If it sounds beautiful, it is beautiful.

THere is some conceptual promise here, Shergold. Its raw as f*** but, if its your first go at something like this, you haev sone remarkably well. Have you seen Samuel Adler's 'Orchestration' book, or Walter Piston's, or Schoenberg's? You should start exploring this stuff.

Just got a listen in. Its a great transcription but you still sound uncomfortable with the piece and your phrasing is a little awkward. Some of that will be because you are playing as a written piece something that someone else has improvised. But, nevertheless, you need to work on some of your core techniques and tighten things up a bit. But, otherwise, a great exercise and all credit to you for trying something that ambitious! Well done that man!

I actually have more guitars than basses (4:2 ratio) and also have a piano I am messing about with (as much as a midi controller as an instrument in its own right). The study of music is what matters here not the study of technique. The greatest composer/instrumentalists in jazz are nearly all multi-instrumentalists. Mingus played piano (inc recording LPs) as does drummer Jack DeJohnette, who has recorded on the instrument many times. Pat Metheny writes on piano. Guitarist Birelli Lagrene plays great Jaco influenced bass whilst bassists Dave Holland and Jack Bruce both play cello. Trumpter Wynton Marsalis plays piano whilst drummer Omar Hakim has played guitar on Weather Report cds. The list goes on and on. I would recommend all bass players play either guitar or piano as an undersatnding of chords is central to your ability to play great bass lines. No need to achieve virtuoso level, just enough to be able to hear stuff!

Benavent rocks! First heard him on a Gil Goldstein 'Zebracoast' cd several years ago. Will check out the link later.

I think it depends on the gig. A great drummer on a great sounding acoustic kit would probably out do an electric kit in most situations but a great drummer on an electric kit is likely to do the job perfectly satisifactorily in many situations and, more importantly, will probably out perform a weak player n a great kit If your drummer friend can play, move past the prejudice and go for it. I lose jazz gigs to weak acoutsic bass players all of the time. When its aesthetics vs musiciality, the musicality should win everytime. Try it, You might like it.

Never liked Abe, I'm afraid, but I think its because I never really liked anything that he played on (its mostly fuzak).

Robert Palmer plays in mine. Regularly.

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='290804' date='Sep 24 2008, 01:01 PM']Bilbo, you just don't know when to stop stirring, do you? [/quote] Moi?

Just a small point on Jon Anderson's lyrics. As a Yes fan through the 80s, (I came to it around the time of the 'Tormato' LP), I am familiar with everything they did up to '90125' and could probably recite acres of Anderson lyrics without any effort. There has always been this thing about how s*** his lyrics were and how they didn't make sense. The thing is, they weren't supposed to. Anderson long ago made it know that his concept was to string together words that sounded pretty/poetic etc i.e. the sound of the word was as important as, if not more important than, its meaning. The meaning of his lyrics is, therefore, impressionistic rather than a narrative. If you bear that in mind, it all makes a bit more sense (or not, depending on what you mean). As I understand it, Jon Anderson's lyrical concept is not a million miles away from James Joyce's 'Ulysses'. Yes played some really great music and although some of it got a bit bloated sometimes, much of it was highly original and innovative. 'Going For The One' was always a favourite for me.

Whatever your thoughts about Prog Rock and Yes lyrics (!), Squire was (and remains) an original voice on his instrument. He influenced a generation of bass players including Geddy Lee of Rush and has produced some pretty incredible stuff in the Yes discography. And all with a pick! Being compared to him should very much be considered a compliment.

[quote name='noelk27' post='290852' date='Sep 24 2008, 02:02 PM']The ambition of any songwriter has to be the creation of a homogeneous entity and not a collection of individualist parts.[/quote] Absolutely - a great bass line on a bad piece of music is like polish on a turd. Its nice and shiny now but, when it comes down to it, its still a turd!

[quote name='Bass_In_Yer_Face' post='290782' date='Sep 24 2008, 12:37 PM']I don't get The Beatles either....I think The Stones & The Who were better[/quote] Now the Stones - bad bass lines AND bad songs. Hell of an achievement.

My point was simply that liking a song was not the same as valuing its effect on the masses. I like loads of things that would clear a dance floor in seconds. My original post was about not liking songs with great bass lines not about not liking songs that are dancefloor fillers. So if the poster in question says he likes a poor song because of the effect of that song on his audience, it doesn't mean he likes the song on its own merits. Maybe I should have just said that!

[quote name='tonybassplayer' post='290675' date='Sep 24 2008, 11:08 AM']When I see a full dance floor loving what we are playing ie mama mia, disco inferno, I want You Back etc then I start to love the song !![/quote] Then what you are enjoying is not the song but the effect the song has on your audience. Perfectly understandable but, remember, if you play for applause, that is all you will ever get .

I remember in the late 80s/early 90s getting hold of the famous 'In The Shadow of Motown' book/cd set and spending a few weeks or months looking at what were generally some very sophisticated and demanding bass-lines (and great reading practice, if nothing else). Some of these lines were fantastic (the line to the bridge on the Diana Ross live version of 'Ain't No Mountain High Enough' springs to mind as an absolute diamond). After a while, however, and after visiting the original recordings of the tunes involved, I clocked the fact that, despite these wonderfully complex and intelligent lines, I didn't actually LIKE most of the songs - a lot of it is bubblegum and some of it just plain bad! I have since tried (with varying degrees of success) to listen to all music wholistically and not just from a bassophile point of view. As a result, massive amounts of music that other bass players find exciting bores my rigid - great bass playing, lousy music. So, my question is, what are the tunes where the basslines make you think 'wow' but you never listen to them because the tunes are s***e? Some of mine..... 'Le Freak' by Chic - great line, naff song. 'Car Wash' by Rose Royce - we all like that fill but....yeeeeeeeeeeuch! Almost anything by Tower of Power! Loads of Jeff Berlin tunes, especially that awful train effect on 'Runaway Train' on 'In Harmony's Way' - criiiinge!! All of Steve Bailey's 'Dochontomy' cd. Stu Hamm's 'Radio Free Albymuth' Wooten's 'Amazing Grace' The list goes on and on and on.....

Try the Simandl book or Rufus Reid's 'The Evolving Bassist' - each represents a systematic approach to playing (they both work just as well for double bass and electric - its the notes that matter, not the power supply)

Four decades to find jazz? You can't have been looking very hard

As an electric jazzer, I find I, like you, favour the neck end of things to the bridge area. If you actually look at a double bass player, s/he is generally playing in a similar position relative to the bridge/neck. That is why the sound is deeper and more rounded. When I solo, I find I move slightly towards the bridge so itcuts through a little more but rarely do I play right up at that bridge end.

I'm with The Funk on this one. The book has everything in it and you can take it one bite at a time. The AB Guides are no easier in my view and they aren't as comprehensive in the longer term.

That's cos he's never met the magic drum pixie....

[quote name='deadraven' post='287318' date='Sep 19 2008, 02:24 PM']you cant really 'teach' timing and rhythm[/quote] Of course you can.

[quote name='deadraven' post='287311' date='Sep 19 2008, 02:18 PM']Like most people are saying, there are mainly two types, one who is theory based, and the other who will explore.[/quote] That's exactly the opposite of what I just said [quote name='deadraven' post='287311' date='Sep 19 2008, 02:18 PM']The experiences I've had with people who learnt all the theory first from picking up their instruments for the first time generally thought everything had to be played 'a specific way' and always in a certain scale.[/quote] The bad application of knowledge should never be laid at the door of the knowledge itself but at the owner of that knowledge. A example of a musician who applies theory badly should not be used to negate the value of that knowledge. [quote name='deadraven' post='287311' date='Sep 19 2008, 02:18 PM']I think when you feel you've gone stale in your playing or hit a brick wall, then perhaps you should further yourself by learning techniques you may not know. But untill that time, as long as your having fun playing your instrument and generally going well with the music, nothing else matters!!![/quote] Whilst this is not wholly defensilbe, I would argue that, if you study the whole language of music in all its myriad glories, you would never get stale. I am more excited by music now that I was when I started playing in 1980! Stale is what you get if you don't look outwards and see what the rest of the world is doing - stagnant water is only stagnant because it is not regularly refreshed. And as for fun; there is a concept called deferred gratification. Not everything that is of value can be gleaned out of what is superficially 'fun'. The best things in life, the things that really matter, are often hard won.