Bilbo

But those that don't know what they don't know can only want to know what they don't know if they have a very real sense that they don't know what they don't know. If they knew that, and knew that they knew that, then they would want to know, you know?

The proper study of theory would inevitably improve your ear. I particularly found this with the melodic minor scale and associated chord theory. You would be a pretty special musician if you could find your way around that sucker without proper study. C D Eb F G A B C = melodic minor = C Min/maj7, D Min7sus9, Eb Maj7sharp5, F7sharp11, G7b6, Adim, Balt (b9, Min3shap9, b11, b5/sharp11, b13, b7). Of course, you learn it, internalise it then 'just play' but the important part is to LEARN it not wait until the magic bass pixie delivers it fully formed.

Well, I definitely learned something today Although, in my defence, I would point out that there are 208 words in that post and I got one wrong. That's a 99.52% success rate. If that was anything medical, I would go ahead anyway!!!

I have my own agenda here (NO!!!) I have always been frustrated by the desire of some quarters to 'dumb down' everything, be it music, books, films, tv, art - whatever. I have always preferred excellence in any discipline and, whilst I do expect everyone to be 'the best', I like to see some sort of desire in the individual to develop, to learn, to grow. It is that tendency that makes people interesting (whether they are musicians or not). The absence of that instinct generally renders people pretty one-dimensional and, frankly, boring. That is why the popular media is so bad; most people don't want to be challanged. I started in HM bands, as I have said elsewhere, and have played in all sorts of different situations in all sorts of locations. In my experience, those musicians who are educated (and self-educated is still educated) are generally (and that word is important) more motivated, quicker, more creative, more respectful of the musicians around them, more professional, easier to communicate with, less frustrating, DEFINATELY better improvisers, more responsive, more open-minded and are more rounded. They are, in a nutshell, more interesting to be around. The celebration of mediocrity is going to kill all Art; its already disabled it.

I HATE IT!! I HATE IT!! I HATE IT!!! It should never be played again by anyone ever. If you have a chart, burn it. Now.

My experience tells me that I will never get past just competent. Everything I ever learned reveals at least two more things I didn't know

Yeah! - I've never had any theory lessons either (just about 1 lesson on technique every 4 or 5 years). I just taught myself using some books and tapes and dvds and reading some articles in some magazines written by some very clever people that knew stuff I didn't. I thought that would be a good idea rather than knobbing about in the dark until something clicked. Here's the rub: learning theory doesn't require formal lessons! As for the status this knowledge brings: the most high profile piece of work I have ever done as a musician was a Radio 1 session in 1981 when I was 17 - before I had any lessons, knew any theory or could read dots. Knowledge is power. The absence of knowledge, however, does not leave you powerless. My point is simply this: If you are ignorant of the building blocks of music, you have nothing to offer to the originator of this thread other than a blank piece of paper, some justifications as to why it has remained blank and an excuse for him (or her) to not do anything constructive about their playing. If that is all you have to offer him, do him a favour and shut up (now that's arrogant)! Would any of you suggest people don't send their kids to school because they can probably learn most of the stuff outside? Just because people tell you you are brilliant doesn't mean you are, just as having noone tell you that you are brilliant means you are not. You may be a great player by accident but that won't help the author of the original post get any better, will it? Advocacy of ignorance is not a defensible position to take. I have one question. If some of you 'naturals' who are great players had studied, how much better would you now be? I can't answer that for you. (although I suspect you answer will be that the theory would have undermined your playing and creativity...... Like it did Steve Vai, Jaco, Jeff Berlin, Brian Bromberg, Gary Willis, Tom Kennedy, Lawrence Cottle, Paul Chambers, Janek Gwizdala, Beethoven, Prokofiev, Aaron Copeland, Mike Stern, Steve Morse, Mozart, John Scofield, Tchaikovsky, Elgar, Scott Henderson, Holst.... (i'm boring myself now ) )

I have performed modern jazz at the Brecon Jazz Festival in both an orange suit and a lime green one. I have also done jazz-funk gigs in black tie and tails (no-one else was wearing them). Mad, eh

Steve Swallow - he produced John Scofield's 'Still Warm' album and has done many others that I can't recall.

GK MB150E is not very loud at all and the tone potential is limited. It would be ok for small jazz gigs etc (I have just started using two of the MBX112 cabs with an SWR head for small gigs and am still not 100% happy with the sound but its early days) but if you are playing with a loud drummer, it won't compete. If you are set on one, try it out first. Otherwise, I would recommend a s/h Eden Metro (£650?). I use mine on all the louder gigs I do and it is a monster. Heavy to lug around but you'll know how you feel about that.

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' post='276434' date='Sep 3 2008, 05:57 PM']i learned to play bass just by listening to the bands i liked and figuring the parts out! this has given me a pretty dam good ear and i can now pick stuff up really quickly! it also has led to me being a very free and natural player. i dont have to think about what im doing in a mathmatical way i just do it by feel. this really works for me in a band situation where you improvise and jam a lot! a lot of the musicians that i was around when i first started out really didnt understand how i could play with out lessons or theory (ive never had a lesson in my life) they had so many lessons and its all they talked about but in a band situation they sounded so wooden like they were being restricted by what they were being taught! like they were only aloud to play what was "correct" and "proper" but to me music is about expression and feel. i think you should start by playing how you want to play and develop your own style! then later on if you feel like you hit a brick wall or want to take it to another level consider lessons etc if your happy and confident with your playing then its obviously working for you! dont worry about theory too much or what other people say/think! just keep up to date with the basics and just get on with playing and enjoying it! after all thats what its all about! also remember that some of the greatest musicains in the world couldn't/cant read or write a note of music!! [/quote] This is what is called a series of justifications. It all sounds perfectly plausible but what Chrisdabass is actually saying is that you can become a 'free and natural' player' without doing any work and, and this is the one that REALLY gets on my thruppnies, that people who have studied sound wooden [i]because [/i] they have studied and had lessons. This is a fantastic way of justifying a lack of investment in your playing. Music is about 'expression and feel'? Of course it is. But its not about magic and the magic bass pixie coming along and sprinkling pixie dust on the chosen few. It is about gathering as much information as you need to make defensible decisions about note choices, groove playing, musica textures etc The trouble with 'natural' and 'untrained' players is that they are invariably one trick ponies who have a limited potential to find work. They are generally less informed about the wider musical world and fairly entrenched in a small generic silo. Outside of their comfort zone they struggle. The fact that some of the greatest musicians in the world can't read a note of music is neither here nor there. The question is what route is going to get you the most long term benefits as a player. I would advocate for systematic study over pixie dust everytime! If you want my opinion, if anyone ever tells you there is an easy way to learn the bass that doesn't require concerted study, give them a wide berth.

I have a basic setting that I use as a starting point but I often tweak it to compensate for odd sounding rooms. The Wal Custom has a lift facility on the tone controls that improves the presence and enhances the frequencies that each control covers. I find I use that quite frequently during gigs. Its also sometimes easier to use the bass pots to control tone rather than the amp when you are playing in small, dark venues etc and you need to make adjustments in real time. So, the straight answer to our question is, yes.

Ignorance is ignorance. Fun is overated. Do some work, you waster!

Leave it near a naked flame!!!

Sounds great. Can't get there as I have a gig in Suffolk but good luck anyway.

Absolutely! Its all about intent vs chaos. I think a lot of developing players thrash about hoping to get something good to happen wihtout understanding the creative process. Guitarists are particularly adept at wiggling their fingers without any real idea of what they are doing but a lot of bassists are the same and the problem is getting worse. I was looking at a Youtube clip recently where the player was 'noodling' and, although there was some technique on show, the results lacked focus and form whereas an improvisation by, say, Dave Holland or Steve Swallow is a little piece of art. The difference is in the knowing, and the results, consequently, have their own internal integrity.

Have you ever actually heard any jazz? I think the point is best illustrated by the 'playing ahead of the beat' concept. You need to know where the beat IS before you can play ahead or behind it. If you don't, you will just drag or rush. You need to be able to play 'inside' before you can play 'outside'. If you can't hear diatonic harmony, 'outside' playing will be just wrong notes. I don't think it is common sense, cheddatom. I think the misunderstanding that many lay people have about jazz/improvised music is based on the fact that they don't understand that you have to be able have a comprehensive, even encyclopeadic, undersatnding of harmony, melody and rhythm before you can 'make it up as you go along'. People like John Scofield, Pat Metheny and Scott Henderson have all achieved a level of technical proficiency and then built upon it by throwing in some dirt. The results are exquisite.

I have a confession to make! The quote that opened this thread wasn’t complete. It carries on as follows: [i]'The variation from the exact which is due to incapacity for rendering the exact is, on the whole, ugly. The artist who is to vary effectively from the exact must know the exact and must have mastered its attainment before his emotion can express itself adequately through a sort of flirtation with it’[/i] In a nutshell, the writers argument is that you need to move away from perfection in order to express emotion in music but, in order to do that effectively, you need to know where perfection is. The argument is not without its flaws where some popular music forms are concerned but, for the developing musician, it is compelling.

I am in Felixstowe if you want to come over one day/evening to chew the bass fat. PM me if you are interested. I promise not to talk about jazz all night

I'm a convert! I got this one for my birthday in July and have listened to it almost every day (on my cd player in work) - it makes me feel good. I also find my own voice sits comfortably in the same register as JTs so I can sing along without regrets!

James Taylor - Mud Slide Slim & the Blue Horizon. Purdy!

I have a 205,000 word manuscript I am working on. The back-up is backed-up with copies on 3 different computers and a falsh drive. I lost 8,000 words of an MA dissertation once; fortunately I had origianlly hand written it but it still took hours of typing to recover it. You'll never make THAT mistake twice!

You can sell some things to ANYONE!

[quote name='Josh' post='274477' date='Sep 1 2008, 01:33 PM']Bilbo you are the inspiration to the notion Maybe you just to love to hate him alone, you may dislike some others but hating Jeff Berlin is just so much more fun because you've been following him for so long.[/quote] And what's worse is that, as a 10 year old, I liked Gary Glitter (I still have a few of his singles somewhere). Why do these people keep letting me down?

[quote name='Josh' post='273821' date='Aug 31 2008, 04:53 PM']Wals: The bass for a Druid. Killer tone though.[/quote] Works for me! Haven't read the whole topic but I want to go off at a tangent. I have grown to hate Jeff Berlin; everything he says and EVERYTHING he plays. There is a trio version of his 'Bach' thing on YouTube - it is so lame it is unreal. He plays with his head and not his heart and the results are emotionally dead. His MySpace posts are excruciating. His dress sense is worse than mine and that is saying something but, hey, I am not out there in public like he is. His moustache makes him look like an ex-70s porn star and his signature basses are pitiful. His Norah Jones duets are so cringeworthy it is astonishing and his efforts at self promotion are so transparent he wouldn't be out of place on Celebrity Big Brother. I am even getting worrried that I feel this strongly about a dork! I have no strong feelings about ANY other players but he is really getting on my t**s lately. Or is it just me?