Bilbo

Rotosound Solo Bass (groundwounds - 22 years and still minimal fretwear)

It's taken me 28!

Cool - Ron Carter once said something about 'free' bassplaying along the lines of 'no thanks. I don't want to be free'. He considered the infinite choices available in that context to be disabling. Like its the frame that defines the artwork and, without it, it has no boundaries and is just so much paint. My own studies of composition have revealed that one of my problems, one of the barriers to my producing anything of value, is my overwhelming desire to complicate things, to look for complex harmonies, melodies and rhythms; in short, to be 'clever'. By breaking stuff down into diatonic sequences and consciously limiting note choices, I was immediately able to write better tunes. Simple melodies, simple tunes. Then, by starting to build things up from there, progress has become possible. Your point is essentially about learning to walk before you try running. I think that applies equally to both craft and art. Good point well made.

This one is at the GAllery in Camden for £1400 (no, its not mine). Real looker. [url="http://www.thebassgallery.com/seijazz5quilt.html"]http://www.thebassgallery.com/seijazz5quilt.html[/url]

[quote name='Galilee' post='222917' date='Jun 20 2008, 01:45 PM']it begins to affect my brain, in the same way that repeating the same word over and over until it no longer makes sense does.[/quote] I'm gonna try that now, now now, now, now, now, now now, now, now, now, now now, now, now, now, now now, now, now, now, now now, now, now

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='222791' date='Jun 20 2008, 11:52 AM']That's it!! I have clocked it now. If I have a Fodera, I can play exactly like Victor Wooten![/quote] It's always a temptation, isn't it? But your musical persona is a lot more than your bass; it is you bass, your amps, your fingers, your head, your heart, your choices.... I fancy a Fodera too (AJ Presentation but fretless?) but have never played one! I guess I am falling for the hype as well (although Jake's turned my head with his Alembic!!). Fortunately, I can't possibly afford one so I'll stick to my Wal....

Ref AndyMartin's point. But one tosser doesn't change the fact that the levels of creativity possible in a context where the music is being created not replicated or approximated are greater. Just as a couple of great and highly original arrangements of popular songs doesn't excuse the fact that most bands doing covers are reprising the same old same old. I can only report on what I see and that is most covers bands are not hot-beds of original thought.

[quote name='mcgraham' post='222752' date='Jun 20 2008, 11:15 AM']You are responsible for being creative and imaginative. Yes, I acknowledge some environments are easier to be creative in than others, so doesn't that mean if you can thrive in a restrictive environment, then your creative ability will prosper in an unrestricted one.[/quote] Possibly. Good point.

A few points in response: Whilst I can readily accept that I am capable of talking bollocks (it's part of the human condition), it does seem that anyone here who seeks to take a considered and reasonably intelligent approach to issues of any kind is quickly accused of being arrogant, self-righteous, elitist, superior etc. We are all just trying to make sense of it all. Being told that things that are being said, whether by me or anyone else, are 'b******s' is not contributing to the debate but debasing and serves only to stifle it. How creative is [i]that[/i]? Thisnameistaken's decription of covers bands as as retirement homes for former musicians is a delight and will be quoted often in sleepy Suffolk Remembering why I play is why I am getting increasingly saddened by this covers/tribute culture. I don't play to 'have fun' although having fun is a common consequence of playing music. If I want to 'have fun' there are 1,000 other things I could do that would cost less money and require substantively less investment in terms of time and effort. I DIDN'T start to play because I wanted to be in a covers band. I started because I like music. As I have played it now for 28 years or so, I have come to realise that certain aspect of the making of music are more satisfying than others. Regurgitating covers is, for me, one of the least satisfying aspects of musiking and amounts to the aestheic equivalent doing jigsaw puzzles or painting by numbers. I find it undermines creativity because it numbs the senses and stifles the flow of ideas. Finally, we say 'here [i]is[/i] my twopenn'th' as it is an abbreviation of 'here is my twopenny's-worth' (the worth of two pennys) as opposed to 'here [u]are[/u] my two pennys'. Now I really AM talking b******s.

Trumpet? Chromonica? French Horn (one hand possibly but maybe not one arm)? Tuba? Didgeridoo? Euphonium? Eb horn? Composing music on a computer for playback or composing using a DAW music or Sibelius for others to play? Various percussion instruments? Synth? Slide guitar (same as French Horn although there is a slide player out there with [i]no[/i] hands who plays slide with his feet - its on Youtube somewhere). And, as was said, the voice, the most sophisticated instrument of all. A life in music is not determined by the number of arms/hands/digits you have but by your passion and ingenuity. The only barrier to a fulfilling and rewarding life as a player and musician would be your mind.

You sound like a monkey with his hand is a sweet jar, afraid to let go of what you have even though you can' t enjoy it. If The Growlers have a local rep, you may be able to poach a singer and drummer from someone else and get your mojo back. Ambivalence is difficult to counter and life's probably too short to try. Ditch the deadweights and start again.

I think one of the things people forget about composing/songwriting is that, like the mechanics of bass playing, you start as a beginner and get better with [i]practice.[/i] I think there is a tendency in the music business to expect composers/songwriters to nail it 100% the first time and every time thereafter. Its ok to write s*** music, as long as each composition is marginally better than the last. Most of the bands you see doing this stuff don't charge for tickets, its free so enjoy it or leave. I used to play with Grant Nicholas of Feeder and he used to write the stuff we did with a guy called Brian Sperber (now a NY producer/engineer). The songs were ok, some weak some stronger, but 10 years after I last saw him, I hear he is headlining national and international tours and winning awards for his songwriting. It didn't happen overnight- it took years of writing sh*t songs and playing them live to develop his craft (I don't have an opinion on his material now as I haven't listened to it - I assume it works for some people otherwise he wouldn't still be out there). If he had decided not to bother with songwriting at 18 because Stevie Wonder wrote better tunes, a whole catalogue of music would have been lost. Some may say that would be a good thing . I don't. Whilst I accept ianrunci's point about stagecraft, I do believe that working only in covers bands and neglecting a more directly creative impulse is counter-productive in terms of developing as a potential artist. Working on your technique in a covers band is not working on your creativity. There is a peripheral benefit of learning an odd lick or working on your phrasing but this marginal to the more quantifiable benefits of studying composition properly. But the creative process is as much a learned skill as playing and developing artists should not be dismissed so quickly. They deserve as much encouragement (and indulgence) as young players.

[quote name='chris_b' post='222126' date='Jun 19 2008, 01:38 PM']Lennon and McCartney, Sting, Ray Charles, Miles Davis, Clapton, Jaco, Jamerson all played covers and it didn't dent their creativity in the slightest. Can we move on now???[/quote] D'ya think? Of course, they are all known primarily for their function band work.

[quote name='squire5' post='221971' date='Jun 19 2008, 10:36 AM']Flim and the BBs - New Pants.My,Jimmy Johnson is amazing![/quote] Have you heard Wayne Johnson's Trio with JJ and Bill Berg (that would be Flim and [i]a[/i] BB)?Fantastic - google him or be square (sod all on YouTube)!

Doing your scales, chords, theory etc is about developing muscle memory and insights so that, when you seek to execute an idea, you are able to do so. Learning to read music has many purposes, one of which would be to allow you to execute the ideas of others. But that particular skill also allows you to record (as in write down) your OWN ideas and recreate them some time later without having to try to 'remember' them. It also allows you to provide instructions for other musicians who agree to work with you in creating your music. All of these skills are necessary to become a rounded player/composer/artist. The problem with suggesting that playing in a covers band is a a 'learning experience' is not that it isn't. it is, but that what you learn is of limited value and can be learned more effectively and quickly in other ways. If you just learn, by rote, Watt-Roy's line for 'Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick', you are only able to play that tune that way in that song. If you study that line, comprehend the scales used, the chords and the context in which they are used and the nature of the choices Watt-Roy made, then clarify which technical/motor skills he is utilising and the extent that they can be built upon to increase your OWN creative potential, then you can probably transfer that information to any one of a myriad of alternative situtations and retain the collected information as a lesson for life. But this assumes several things. Firstly, that the line involved is so critically original that it warrants that level of investment. Secondly, that the motor skills required to execute it are something that the developing player needs to acquire (like two handed tapping, it’s a creative choice but I subjectively think it mostly sounds like a bag of spanners being thrown down the stairs – others disagree and are right to do so). Thirdly, the time it takes to acquire that skill is worth the investment (I have no doubt that I could play like Michael Manring given infinte time and space but, having critically assessed his work (by listening to it), I do not believe that, in order to take my own concepts of musicality further, this amount of effort would be a productive use of my time). Otherwise, thank God that Manring exists and continues to do what he does. Fourthly, that there is something specific about that particular piece of music that makes it important for [i]me/you[/i] to wish to invest [i]personally[/i] in exploring its mysteries. To be blunt, at this point in my career, I have yet to find a 'function band' cover I can't play pretty much straight off, as well as if not better than most of my peers and certainly sufficiently well to satisfy any customer (this is not about playing Weather Report or Stanley Clarke covers which never appear at functions but the about playing the usual bubblegum called for by function/covers bands). Its been a LONG time since I actually 'learned' anything technical from playing covers other than how to play those specific tunes, most of which I can take or leave. The only way to improve is to study music; not licks, riffs, musicians or acres of other people’s basslines but music, the art of it. Learning to write is not about learning to regurgitate other people’s stuff’; thisnameistaken’s girlfriend need's to have something worth writing about before she even starts. If people copy other people’s stuff in literature it’s call plagurism and gets you seriously censured and wholly discredited. In music we call it a tribute band! I sometimes think people are not really aware of what is out there in the world of music and the full potential of music to improve people’s (including their own) lives. They continue to be dazzled by the applause and perceived status achieved and by the reflected glory that is believed to be a consequence of playing ‘the hits’ – I still hear it in jazz (‘he can play ‘Donna Lee’ – so f***ing what? That was nailed three decades ago by Jaco and three decades before THAT by Parker. It’s mostly a party trick and, like all party tricks, impresses the uninformed and nothing more). It’s a hall of mirrors. I am not saying don’t DO covers – this industry demands it of us and, if there are no other gigs out there, I will continue to do it, but let’s not pretend that there is any nobility in it. It can be fun, in spite of its nature, but it is a crass job that fills our wallets (no shame in that) and is no more creative than flipping burgers. I am sure there are plenty of people out there having fun doing just that.

Hi Crash. What's you poison? Rock, pop, funk, country, folk, prog, Heavy Metal, Speed Metal, Death Metal, Hip Hop, House, Garage, Classical, fusion, jazz or klezmer? We need to know!

[quote name='cheddatom' post='221230' date='Jun 18 2008, 11:03 AM']It was my mental image that got on my tits, not you bilbo! I'm sure you don't need an e-hug, but I can offer violent make-up sex at the weekend if you're up for it?[/quote] Sorry mate, I'm washing my goatee!

[quote name='cheddatom' post='221214' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:42 AM']Bilbo at home, stroking his goatee sipping coffee listening to Gyles Brandreth and Stephen Fry?!?!? ARRRGHGHG so jazzy!![/quote] Sorry, mate. More likely to be listening to Connolly and Kohli. I only know any of these guys because they occasionally appear on tv. I was trying to make a point. If my reading intelligent writers and then thinking about what they say gets on your t***, then I am sorry. I promise to seek counselling.

[quote name='cheddatom' post='221150' date='Jun 18 2008, 09:48 AM']I think that any drive towards excellence is more a trait of a craftsman/the craftsman within the artist. IMHO an artist wants to create better and better art, but this could be worse and worse in other people's opinions, and they don't necessarily need to improve technical skill to improve art (in whoever's opinion).[/quote] A good point, oh cheesy one. I have always been intrigued by the fact that great raconteurs like, say, Gyles Brandreth or Stephen Fry, fail to communicate as effectively and universally as less 'erudite' individuals like Billy Connolly or Hardeep Singh Kohli. Art is not necessarily best served by technical skill.

[quote name='cheddatom' post='221198' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:28 AM']Maybe there are just many people out there who educated themselves enough to choose the swill that they know and love.[/quote] They are welcome to it

[quote name='chris_b' post='221169' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:10 AM']And to take the analogy even further....... many original bands that I have heard would equate to Charlie's Kebab van, so excuse me if I don't rate these bass lines as highly as covering something like Chic etc! Burger King? Sheer luxury!![/quote] But there are a range of takeaway vans that provide tuck that is far superior to your average high street takeaway - I have eaten Carribean, Thai, Szechuan, Phillipino and a host of others cuisines from vans/tents and was massively impressed by the qulaity. I quickly learned that, like music, there are many people out there who will continue serving you swill if you are unwilling to educate youself enough to recognise the fact.

[quote name='lowdown' post='221174' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:12 AM']I write and record library music, Does that count as well? Garry[/quote] Yup....

[quote name='Clive Thorne' post='221148' date='Jun 18 2008, 09:46 AM']But it is !!![/quote] I agree but it don't make it Michelin Star level.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='220751' date='Jun 17 2008, 04:59 PM']Like many of these threads the question relies on individual definition and being what we are; varied, we will have a similar variety of definitions for this. Here's mine: (and I believe it was my post in another thread in which this point was first raised) Very few if any of us are artists by my definition. I would equate the terminology with excellence moving towards world class or at least unique/highly individual in order to achieve the status.[/quote] I know what you are saying, Jake, but I disagree on one fundamental point. To be a poet, you need to write poetry. To be a bass player, you need to play a bass. To be a composer, you need to compose. To be an artist, you need to 'do' art. You can, however, be a [i]bad[/i] poet, a [i]bad [/i] bass player, a [i]bad[/i] composer or a [i]bad[/i] artist. And this is not vernacular slang; when I say [i]bad[/i] I MEAN [i]bad[/i] . I think it is an aspiration towards excellence that drives me and it is that same aspiration that leaves me frustrated at the lack of opportunities to be genuinely (by my value system) creative. Nevertheless, I reserve the right to continue to sit in front of Sibelius, Cubase 3 or Band In A Box writing crappy little compositions, each of which represents another cobble on the Yellow Brick Road to compositional Xanadu! I AM a pretty capable bass player. I AM a ok jazz musician. I AM a lousy composer. But when I compose, it is because I want nothing more than to create something of lasting value, something that justifies the 1,000s of hours I have spend musiking (a term coined by musicologist Christopher Small). My writing is by far the least productive of my musical activities and yet it is the one I value most. I will keep trying. 'I Feel Love', triplets or not, just doesn't compete.

[quote name='silverfoxnik' post='220967' date='Jun 17 2008, 10:01 PM']duplicitous[/quote] Moi?