Bilbo

I am here to say something I have already said (more than once). The reading thing, for me, is less about getting reading gigs than it is about learning quicker and not having to retain stuff to be able to reproduce it. It is about being able to produce proper, accurate charts for other musicians and about wasting less time at rehearsals (which is more important as you get older and lifes gets more and more complicated). It is about wasting less time trying to learn by rote and studying scores to get the knowledge you are looking for (like the guy I knew who nailed a dep gig by listening to recordings on the way to the gig and writing out charts using his ears only). It is also a great way to explain stuff to students and to put together exercises for developing players at all levels. You don't do any of this instead of developing your ears; you do it AS WELL AS. In fact, it helps you develop your ears because, if you are reading, you need yours ears to tell you that you are playing the right notes at the right time and in tune, not your eyes to tell you your fingers are geographically in the right place (this is particularly important for fretless players). Readers aren't better than non-readers, they are just better than they probably would be if they couldn't read. If they have bad time, its because they have bad time, not because they can read.

He plays jazz, he plays jazz.....(sweating)...

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='392864' date='Jan 27 2009, 04:14 PM']The film score dude?[/quote] Have you heard the Theme from Schindler's List? If that isn't great music, what is? There is a version of it on YouTube with Itzhal Perlman playing the solo. 4.14 of you life to see another way of moving people. Go on, you know you want to.....

[quote name='Cantdosleepy' post='391826' date='Jan 26 2009, 03:14 PM'][Complex jazz expert]'s music is, say Jodorowsky's Holy Mountain, compared to Spoon's Shotgun Stories. Simplicity if executed well can be staggering.[/quote] Totally agree - but when all you get is simplicity, it loses its impact. Just like the complex. Its all about tension and release, yin and yang, Scooby and Shaggy....

[quote name='Rich' post='391774' date='Jan 26 2009, 02:06 PM']Yes, and a hell of a lot of people play simple thuggish music for the unwashed masses, for fun. I used to be in a pub blues-rock trio and had a whale of a time. Loved it. And I love jazz too. Please tell me you weren't serious when you wrote that, Bilbo..?[/quote] Fun is massively overrated Ok, I might have milked it a bit for effect.... but the spirit of it is what matters!

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391757' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:56 PM']I think the truth is, if the masses started liking Jazz, Jazz fans would start hating it and move onto something even more obscure and pointless.[/quote] It'll never happen. One of the main facets that attracts people to jazz is its unpredictability. What keeps the great unwashed in the cess-pit of popular music is the exact opposite. What is mor epointless than another rendition of 'Mustang Sally'? [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='391757' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:56 PM']Keep music dumb I say.[/quote] Yes, I got that...

'Simple', thuggish music (in the broadest sense) started boring me about 28 years ago. 'Pub rock' is to music what Eastenders is to drama, American Pie is to cinema or Mills and Boon to Literature. Superficial, predicatable, uninspiring and little more than fodder designed to take money off the great unwashed. That's not to say that a simple piece of music cannot be beautiful (take 'Pan's Lullaby' from Pans Labyrinth). The main theme is beautiful and simple beyong belief but, because Javier Navarette is an educated musician, he can take this simple theme and weave a complex series of variations which reflect a range of moods. Same with Elgar's Enigma Variations - take two bars and make it work for 45 minutes. Forget the examples I use; wouldn't you like to be able to do that? My interest in theory stems from my admiration for those who have it and use it creatively. Mashing about with a guitar, in my experience as a listener, rarely produces anything of any remotely lasting value (bit like the infinte number of monkeys with an infinte number of typewriters metaphor). I look at these great composers and improvisers and think, 'how could I do that'? The answer, as I have said here before, is not going to come from the magical composing pixie who throws the magic pixie dust over me and turns me into 'The Maestro'. It will come from the acquisition and disciplined application of knowledge, experience and reflection. How pretentious is that? Well all I can say in answer to that is that, on a completely visceral level, I love it. Its fun, pleasurable, rewarding, exciting, stimulating, enthralling, absorbing, relaxing.....etc. tBBC calls it w*****y but isnt it that same perspective that assumes that because someone is talking a foreign language, one you do not understand, they are talking gibberish? Of course there is bad jazz out there, I play it myself as often as I can, but, like all other genres, in amongst the trial and error, there are nuggets of gold. If you like the more popular genres, these nuggets are regularly drawn to your attention. If your interests lie elsewhere, however, you have to find them yourself. Two free compilations from the Daily Mail ain't gonna do it! Personally, I dislike singers as a rule. Not because I don't like the human voice but because I have no interest in what most of them are saying. It is almost invariably something I have heard said before a miliion times, equally ineffectually. But I don't slag off all vocal music because it is self indulgent preaching, endlessly narcissistic or just plain boring. What appeals to jazz musicians and to its listeners isn't the w******, as it has been called here; its the idea that every tune you play is an new opportunity to create (not recreate), produce (not reproduce) and compose (not decompose ). I play music for fun. I am not a pro - I earned less than £6K from music last year - its no kind of living and as much a 'hobby' for me as it is for anyone else here. But people need to grasp the fact that, until the 20th Century, many of the great artists, composers and poets in history weren't professionals but passionate amateurs. I haven't done a reading gig in 4 years. I still say 'learn to read'; it helps you grow just like literacy does - its not just about reading Dickens and Shakespeare; sometimes its just about reading a bus timetable and getting to a job interview on time, or knowing which shop sells fish so you can feed your cat.

Firstly, try not to sound like a double bass - you need to fill similar sonic space to an upright rather than 'sound like' one. You need to swing, not to sound like a double bass. , Play near the neck not at the bridge. Get rid of the mids in your signal (top is ok, its the mids that make it sound, errr, 'electric'), lots of bass and treble on the eq but not too boomy or clanky. Use your ears to ensure that the bass sound sits underneath everything else and blends into the overall sound of the ensemble - like you know its there but noone can hear it except you. Or like noone knows your are there unless you stop. In truth, you are trying to achieve in one month what I have taken 10 years to achieve (and still haven't nailed). Good luck!

I've got a jazz gig tonight too. There can't be two jazz gigs in Europe on the same day. Are we playing together?

I think I saw it off Orford Ness on its way to Norway - I can call ahead and get them to return it if you want?

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389563' date='Jan 23 2009, 02:04 PM']Perhaps I also admire the slightly punk attitudes of those who don't go down a formal route of musical education. Lets face it, winging it is always cooler![/quote] What I liked about Punk (with hindsight; I hated all that aggression) was the ethos of questioning everything and challenging everything, sacred cows included. In my experience, many of those that took to it were intelligent and politically aware (unlike the yoof of today who wouldn't know a fascist if it goose-stepped up a saluted); the questioning of educational values (e.g the Oxbridge monopoly) was well overdue and their flagrant hostility to the class system was refreshing - basically, if you went to Oxford, you would get the breaks, even if you were stupid! Viewing the phenomenon 32 years later, I think it is important to remember that, when you clear out all of the chaff, it is possible to ditch the wheat as well. Learning about things is not the problem here and I don't think it ever was. Its what you do when you have the knowledge that learning delivers that counts. I actually think jazz can the most 'punk' of all musics; it can be irreverant and angry just as much as real punk was - it is just a bit more subtle about it. And it can be enormous fun but in a satisfying not a purile way.

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='389491' date='Jan 23 2009, 12:21 PM']As an aside, my lack of motivation to read may be linked to the fact that the majority of the musicians who I admire most aren't the worlds most profficient readers.[/quote] Is this because you are looking for affirmation (not a criticism; I know I am!!)? You like them because they share the same core values as you; do it for fun, don't take it too seriously, don't be 'professional', if its too much like work.... etc. Do you like these people because of your lack of motivation, not the other way around? Just a thought (if I have one, it has to come out )

There is a continuing theme here; those that have got theory or reading skills know that they have gained from it; those that have seen the potential of reading and theory are frustrated at their limitations and are working at dealing with them because they know what can be achieved with these tools; those that haven't got it wish they had and those that can't get it want help. So why is it is rare for young players to be shown these tools and alerted to their potential? I think there is room here for some sort of advocacy strategy. Or an anti-tab campaign! Dots are good, numbers on lines are bad!!

It more complicated than that because the response doesn't include time spent composing! But, in the spirit of the debate, I do around 2 gigs a week and the rest of the free time is spent in music related activity that is not playing.. Its a whole lot less than the 38 hrs pw day job tho' (48 if you include travel time - at least I can listen to music then!!). I can't say I was better when I was young. I could have had more technique but I didn't have the knowledge or taste to use it.

[quote name='Merton' post='389426' date='Jan 23 2009, 11:20 AM']it's a weakness and I am embarrassed[/quote] That's as it should be

I often use small passages of written notes on chord charts to indicate a groove - lots of charts say 'medium funk' or 'swing feel' without actually defining the details so, sometimes, I will add a two or four bar sequence to indicate the feel of the groove. It means that next time I do that gig, I can play the grooves as required without having to be reminded. Its not all about reading flys*** on toilet paper. Also, you can often see rhythmic stabs on chord charts that add much need colour and detail. It makes all the difference.

[quote name='Protium' post='388994' date='Jan 22 2009, 08:31 PM']It is a jazz sin, and for perpetrating it you will end up in jazz hell.[/quote] Or a room full of banjo players........

In an effort to earn the 2009 'most popular forum member' Oscar.... Most people don't need reading or theory because most music that is played in most venues by most people is actually very basic/simple/repetetive/undemanding (I know; I have played it throughout my career). People can get by because there is nothing to test them. They can use their ears because there is not that much in the way of real harmonic movement that will test these skills to any real exent. The audience reaction rewards this mediocrity; the more sophisticated the music, the more the punters struggle. Not their fault but its a fact. The benefits of reading are obvious; it comes in two types, reading and sight reading. Whilst I can do both, my sight reading is undermined by a lack of real opportunities to do so (it is a muscle that is wasting). But being able to read and write charts allows you to cover all sorts of bases that you might struggle with otherwise. You can communicate ideas reallly easily and interpret those of others with less need for repetitious run throughs and without the logistics problems of endless rehearsals. You can learn more quickly. You can play in more situations without having to 'learn' sets. Its a skill that can open doors if you want it to. Theory is invaluable if you want to move beyond trained monkey status. Doing it is one thing. Knowing what you are doing is another. My theoretical knowledge, despite being better than most, is not what it should be and I am trying hard to address this but, without it, I couldn't play half the gigs I do. I love the sounds of music and want to know what makes things work. Its not just about bass. I want to challange the pianists, saxophone players and guitarists I play with. I want to arrange big bands charts and string quartets; not because they are lucrative but because they are there. Without theory, I would be doing jigsaws without the lid. With theory, I have more potential to create. But that's just me. I am always suspicious of people that advocate ignorance. It jut doesn't compute.

That rule is not a rule, its what we in jazz call an 'option'. When deciding what lines to play you have what you call 'choices'. Playing the same note twice is one of the 'options' you can 'choose'. You would obviously need to ensure that the 'same note twice' technique is used with taste and discretion as you would not want to gain a reputation as a 'same note twice' playing fool, but sensitively used,it can be an effective way of filling space between one note and another. Chill.

Does anyone know how an adult (like, me) can go about sitting a GCSE in Music? I know you can do all sorts of things in evening classes and stuff but Music is never in the lists. I want to do the exams more than the course itself but would do it if I had to. Anyone know anything?

Mick Goodrick on guitar, Bob Moses on drums and Dave Liebman on soprano and tenor sax. Mmmmmm, nice

Nice one, OG. I don't smoke or drink. I could give up food for two years...

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='386285' date='Jan 20 2009, 03:47 PM']A small OT moment... A lot of people have mentioned practising "standards". That's a term that has always made me rather uneasy. One man's standards are another man's deeply obscure tunes! I once went to an audition "cold" - "oh you'll know the songs - they're standards". Guess how many I had heard before? That's right - none. They we're horrified. Bad night [/quote] They are also regionally defined, the standard changes change from person to person and generation to generation and some people can transpose to any key more easily than others. Its a minefield. I have mixed feelings about standards. The good thing is that they allow you to perform a gig without any rehearsal but the bad thing is that they allow you to perform a gig without any rehearsal I sometimes think they are little more than a quick win for lazy musicians.

I can't see what you are doing is any different, Nathan. You have just called it something else. You say potato, I say potato....