Bilbo

It is unquestionably the case that many musicians doing covers are better PLAYERS (technically) than many of the players in original bands (most of us here could probably outplay Lemmy on a basket of skills). They are potentially more rounded, versatile, educated in the panolpy of genres required etc. But we are not comparing like with like. The problem with music and musicians is that there is a tendency to view all music as part of the same thing, even to consider one genre to be a 'progression' from another (blues to jazz, dixieland to modern, rock to metal, pop to indie etc). This can result in a sense that musicians who commit to an 'earlier' form of the music are, in some way, inferior to the exponents of the newer genres. There is also the tendency to consider a more 'versatile' musician to be a 'better' musician, despite the fact that most of us would never publicly state that music is in any way competitive. This can, in turn, create a sense of hierarchy that places certain aspects of the world of music above others; creativity versus professionalism being the one under discussion here. It is therefore perfectly natural for exponents of any area of music to seek to elevate their professional perspective on this art form in an effort to validate it. I think many people here (and I do not judge them for doing so) are doing just that. If, however, you consider the art of music to be something more than a marketabe product, and many of us clearly don't, then, from where I am sitting, it is difficult to see how it is possible to consider the reproduction of the work of others to be anything other than that. A pastiche, a caricature, a mockery. However serious it takes itself ('the worlds leading XXXX tribute band'!!?!! Damned by faint praise or what?), it represents everything that I DIDN't get into music to do. I am sorry if it offends anyone, and it will, but I cannot see covers bands or tribute bands as anything but tired and culturally redundant.

Here'smy old friend... you can look but don't touch (unless you want to...)

Here it is, my mystery 6-string subsequently identified as a Status Energy. I would consider a swap for a credible 5-string but I am a bit choosy and don't want to cut my nose off to spite my face. It was £799 new (Anderton's in Guildford)

I would only spend £4K on TWO cars. Minimum. PS I think its ugly too!

I bought a 4GB MP3 player a couple of months ago from Argos, nothing fancy, just a little USB stick. It will hold hundreds of tracks (500+) so is plenty good enough for me (it is still nowehere near full). iPODs are too expensive for me to even consider them and I can't see me needing to carry around 10,000 tracks. Anyway, the headphones went today so I went to HMV and bought some Sennheiser in-ear phones for £12. WHAM!! - my pissy little 'Amstrad' MP3 player is now a Bose!!! Obviously I knew better headphones would improve the sound but I never realised how much! Coincidentally, the player was in the middle of a John Scofield track when I changed over and Steve Swallow was playing - WHAT A DIFFERENCE! Swallow sounds even better than brilliant. An up-grade for £12. Cool

I guesss from your post you are not based in the UK, Jogi. Am I right? Either way, you are welcome here.

Jazz trio in Bury. We did an original and nobody died.

There are some fantastic quotes around from Charles Mingus complaining about the fact that, as the 'powers that be' can sell anything to anyone, why don't they sell things of artistic quality over shallow nonsense. His guess is that it is because it is easier to recreate the superficial again and again and not to have to rely on the individual muse of a unique artist! People can't dance in 5:4 but I get requests for 'Take Five' at every other jazz gig I do (hate that one as well). I think (and this is a generalisation) that people don't actually know what they want because they don't actually THINK about what they want - most people go to functions not because they want to see a band but because a, the boss or their colleagues expects it or b, they are related to the bride/groom/birthday boy or girl/retiring employee etc. I would be interested in finding out how many people in the audiences at these function gigs actually OWN copies of the tunes being played by the bands on show. I bet its not 20% of them, maximum. I mean, how many people in the audiences at jazz function gigs (with the exception of the jazz clubs) actually KNOW 'All The Things You Are'? I only ever hear it at the gigs I play.... I actually think the most played jazz standards are not the ones people [i]like[/i] but the ones that saxophone players can play easily and with minimal rehearsal (Softly, Canteloupe, So What/Impressions etc). When was the last time anyone called 'Lush Life' or 'Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most'? So, my point is, if the audience don't OWN any of the tracks we play, how can we say that they LIKE or even PREFER them? I think they just take what we give them fairly passively and are grateful. So why not give them something fresh and original? Of course, there is the point that all of us, as well as being musicians, are also an audience. Every function band I have ever seen moves me not a jot. So who is meeting MY needs as an audience member at a function. I know I am not alone in this and many rock/funk/jazz/folk/classical/world music fans hate covers/function bands as much as I do - do these people never go to functions? Yes they do - they are the ones outside ignoring the band. I actually believe that the function band culture, like the industry of beans and breakfast cereal, is all about generating the most income balanced against investing the least time it takes to develop a product. No shame in that but I think the protestations about 'giving the people what they want' are a justification for that fact. I think most (not all) covers bands operate on a 'good enough' basis and, whilst there is no shame in 'having a good time' when we are playing, quality, integrity and expression of a personal perspective on music have a place too. The ideal is to have a good time doing something of lasting value. 'Professional' is no guarantee of quality - it is only a guarantee that money is changing hands!

[quote name='All thumbs' post='218067' date='Jun 13 2008, 02:56 AM']In fact for me personally I would feel I had lost MY integrity if I had to get a 9-5.[/quote] I actually consciously decided nearly 20 years ago that the function band/ships/cabaret/teaching route was too much of a compromise for me and I would do a day job I believed in first. That was why I started working as a Probation Officer. Some people's lives have changed for the better because of that decision and I feel ok about that. I have always held original music in higher regard than covers (early indoctrination by my bandmates in a HM band in the early 80s) and just find this whole covers thing uncomfortable (you have probably guessed). I don't get that playing in a posh hotel and getting a free sandwich makes playing music that does't inspire me ok... Sean's point about old music is fair but I also fear that we are fast approaching the point where rock music, in all its various forms, is becoming just another nostalgia thing. Its vibrancy was always its currency, its relevance. If we aren't careful, its going to turn into a dead art form like classical music and much of the jazz industry (what are Diana Krall and Stacy Kent if not nostalgia masquerading as art?)

What? And fail the audition?

Not sure I could cope with such bass excellence......

[quote name='Galilee' post='217470' date='Jun 12 2008, 10:40 AM']I imagine that Bilbo230763 will be [b]well[/b] up for this as well. [/quote] I'd rather boil my head.

Surely its all of it? If you think of a bass as a cooking recipe. If you add more salt or less, it changes the taste. But if the meat is lamb not beef, or chicken not pork or fish not game then that is fundamentally different. Add a tomato sauce or a cream based one and its different again. Throw in some herbs and its French, some spices and its Indian or Thai. Whilst I can see that different machine heads will make some sort of difference, surely all of it does - thats why a Wal isn't an Alembic isn't a Sadowsky isn't a Fodera. Its the overall mix not the details. Bit like if your tone is too bassy you can add more top or take some bass off. It taste and experience interacting. PS I wouldn't even DREAM of trying to build a bass so what do I know!

[quote name='sshorepunk' post='217509' date='Jun 12 2008, 11:49 AM']I need to hear the rest of the story Anyone know of any uprught bass tutors in the Manchester area? Tony[/quote] Is Steve Berry still up that way?

No - like all Hoodies, I have a raging crack habit...

Bilbo’s Book of Very, Very Common Standards Girl From Ipaneama Stella By Starlight Have You Met Miss Jones? Summertime Softly As In The Morning Sunrise Night And Day There Will Never Be Another You Body & Soul Yesterdays Bilbo’s Small Book Of Easy Wins (tunes that are easy to learn and played far too often) A 12-bar Jazz Blues (in F and Bb) Mercy Mercy Mercy Blue Monk C Jam Blues (Ellington) Doxy Blues For Alice Impressions So What Lush Life Bilbo’s Increasing List Of ‘learn half of these and you’re gigging for life’ Standards Rhythm changes (in Bb at the very least) - usually played like s*** off a stick All The Things You Are All Of Me Canteloupe Island (I refuse to play it but it is usually called at least once at every jam session - really. I hate its half-assed non-funkiness) Watermelon Man (and this one) Desafinado How High The Moon In A MellowTone Just Squeeze Me Manha Da Carnaval Wave Anthropology Ornitology Oleo Moose The Mooche Blue Monk Donna Lee Impressions Alone Together Angel Eyes Beautiful Love Body & Soul Days Of Wine And Roses Fly Me To The Moon A Foggy Day Groovin’ High (Whispering) It’s Only A Paper Moon Just Friends Love For Sale My Funny Valentine My Romance Satin Doll You Don’t Know What Love Is Mercy Mercy Mercy (Zawinul) Giant Steps There are zillions of these things but, broadly speaking, if you can deal with these, most other standards shouldn't pose too many problems

I started playing before I was born (I was premature). My parents were jazz musicians who played Gil Evans arrangements to me in the womb (via headphones) so, after I was born, they immediately taught me how to read music so I could write down my ideas. I performed in front of Wynton Marsalis before my first birthday and he wanted to book me for his Septet but I wasn't old enough to work nightclubs and, anyway, the soiled nappy thing was a problem for him. So, instead, I starting teaching at the ACM in Guildford. I got the sack after three months as I started talking about major sevenths and they thought I was a bit too advanced for them. So, still only 14 months old, I wrote my first Concerto which Peter Jackson has since earmarked for The Hobbit (that Shore guy thinks he's got the gig but, Jackson is going to sack him again - don't say anything, it is a secret). Personally, I think the work is a little naive, like late Stravinsky only noisier. Anyway, at age of two & a half, Vinny at Fodera offered to build me a 13" scale signature six-string fretless which I accpeted graciously, my Guild Ashbory having tuning problems. I tried talcum powder but, for some reason, I preferred to put it on my a*** than my fingers so that didn't work. I released my first CD at three years old (it sold dozens) and then left the music business to become a Hoodie. I am now in HMP Belmarsh waiting for Parole at which point, I will be recording my 'Free Neslon Mandela' suite and, with Bono from U2, petitioning for the release of this great man. See you then if not before.

[quote name='P-T-P' post='216819' date='Jun 11 2008, 01:12 PM']I can totally see how the opposite would be true for someone else, and that's fine so long as they don't insist their way is the only way.[/quote] But I DO insist! Mongolian nose flautists UNITE!

[quote name='Jase' post='216809' date='Jun 11 2008, 01:03 PM']So what would be the difference in a band playing a set of standards and a band playing a set of classics? (not tribute)[/quote] No difference at all in my eyes. I can accept that a sophisticated rearrangement of a jazz standard is more defensible than a copy of someone elses but I still think that a LOT of jazz (including ALL of the jazz I play) simply follows what is, from a conceptual point of view, the path of least resistance. I am researching a biography on Paul Chambers and I recently interviewed a Detroit bass player who had the same teacher as Chambers. He still has a copy of the set list from his first gig in Detroit in 1954. There was NOT A SINGLE TUNE on that list that I hadn't played in the previous fortnight (in Suffolk in 2007, 53 years later). Is that the way you want your music to go? I sure as hell don't.

I did an early Heavy Metal gig and broke the A sring on my old Aria SB700. Now when that happens, something happens to the set up that renders teh D and G strings unusable so I had to do the last three songs in the set with only the E string. Tony Levin eat your heart out. Funny thing is, no-one noticed Never broken a string since!

But surely the effort required to create something of artistic merit is worth more than that required to simply recreate something someone else has already done. Can you imagine what would have happened at your jazz festivals if you had played, say 'Body & Soul' and in doing so had repeated Coleman Hawkin's tenor solo from his 1939 recording. Or if you played Giant Steps and simply repeated Coltrane's solo. You may just avoid being laughed off the stage by your peers but you would never be take seriously as a player. Now, if one of these tribute bands gets up and plays 'Comfortably Numb' note perfect, its a obviously a perfectly acceptable product for the market place, I acknowledge that, but how can that possibly be of equal merit to Pink Floyd doing the original? Or Porcupine Tree bringing their own slant on Prog Rock? Or IQ or Spock's Beard (I have never heard any of these by the way)? My point all along has been that the repeated rendering of the same old stuff undermines the vitality of the art forms we engage in. People have always danced to music and WILL always dance to music, I am just not convinced that they need that music to be the same everytime they go out for them to feel like dancing. If someone can waltz, they can waltz. It doesn't have to be The Anniversary Waltz for the steps to work. Familiarity breeds contempt!

A friend and I once walked into a top banana guitar shop in London with the guitar roadie of a name rock guitarist. The man in question would, at every available opportunity, drop into the conversation that he was '*****'s guitar roadie. After looking at the guitars on show with unmasked derision, the man in question asked the (very knowledgeable) guitar tech what he should use to polish *****'s guitars. The (very knowledgeable) guitar tech nonchalantly answered 'Pledge.' My friend and I nearly p***ed ourselves.

There are probably dots up the side of the neck but, either way, it doesn't take you long to find you way around a neck. Its about practice and familiarity. Most violins, cellos, double basses, violas and classical guitars don't have markers of any kind. 1,000,000 string players can't all be wrong!!

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='216008' date='Jun 10 2008, 11:15 AM']The title of this thread seems to imply that you can do covers or have integrity. IMO you can do both.[/quote] I absolutely agree that you can do covers and have integrity. Because of MY value base (which isn't any more or less valid than anyone elses), and because of my musical life experiences to date, I am not altogether sure that [i]I[/i] can. Not any more.

[quote name='P-T-P' post='215878' date='Jun 10 2008, 02:16 AM']6. In the purest sense, that means you're screwed as soon as you hit a note,[/quote] One thing that does intrigue me here, and I know this is a Bass forum, is the passion people have for 'playing bass'. I have invested 28 years in the instrument and, like many of us, have a love/hate relationship with the thing but, I have to say, it is the music that I love playing, not the bass. As I said earlier, a great bass line only works in a great piece of music. It has no intrinsic value on its own. as for playing Mustang Sally with John Scofield? Ok - but just the once. And only for money