Bilbo

Absoflippinlutely! But it rarely masquerades as art!

dlloyd is right - or it could be a A maj 9 (no 3rd) - by leaving the third out, you can create an 'open' feel whose ambiguity creates a texture all of its own (its subtle but its there). Coltrane often played minor chords without thirds to create a similar effect.

[quote name='chris_b' post='215284' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:57 AM']No, your integrity went out the window when you started writing these negative, grumpy, elitist and tedious tirades.[/quote] What are you trying to say! Whilst I would not consider my perspectives to be elitist or negative (although I cannot claim they are not tedious or grumpy), I fear for a forum where expressing an honest, if unpopular, opinion can be viewed as indicative of a lack of integrity. I think thisnameistaken's point is valid: [b]"We may eventually reach the conclusion here that there are very few professional musicians who haven't sold their souls to be professional musicians" [/b] There are many examples of musicians staking their own claims to integrity over those of others (HM, I know, is full of these people) but, the minute one starts to change your art in order to increase its market value, you are compromised. There are many musicians who didn't and don't; Thelonious Monk, John Coltrane, Olivier Messiaen etc and there are others who have take the decision to terminate their relationship with lucrative acts in order to persue more artsitically satisfying avenues; Francis Dunnery, Peter Gabriel - this is not about one genre being more valid than others. A commited Country & Western singer is as noble as a commited Serial Composer. But the minute you seek to manipulate your product in order to render it marketable, you are risking a compromise. I guess thisnameistaken is right and that music is either art or commerce but rarely both.

I thought everything Stanley Clarke does sounds familiar?

Did two gigs this weekend - one was to a yacht club function. 250 people all eating drinking and being merry. They loved it; some singing along, some dancing, lots of applause. But, yes, you guessed it, the music was dross. Didn't swing, didn't groove, weak players, dreadful sound (massive warehouse type room - think Stafford Bingley Hall but smaller). Earned £100 - hated every minute except the breaks. 2nd gig - jazz trio (piano, bass, drums). Great sound, real piano (for a change) - appreciative, attentive audience including a retired American pianist and his party who were thrilled to hear jazz played so well in the UK and kept saying so - he kept asking for requests, most which our pianist (Chris Simmonds, Norfolk) knew and I could credibly busk. Great evening - spiritually, socially, musically. Earned £50. When I start turing down gig 2s to play gig 1s because it is more money, then I will know that the integrity has long gone.

I used to get problems if I did too few funk or Latin gigs but I eventually noticed that, ifyou use your amp correctly and don't dig in too hard, you can pretty much cope with anything without too much difficulty. I guess bassplayer spinn worked it out sooner than most of us.

[quote name='OldGit' post='213751' date='Jun 6 2008, 11:38 AM']Absolutely! It's just not always the most pressing need.[/quote] Agreed. I guess I am asking, do we delude ourselves when we act without integrity in order to fool ourselves into believing that we have it?

Scales: Major Minor Melodic Minor Diminished Augmented Chromatic in all 12 keys for two octaves. Then in thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths and sevenths Chordal arpeggios Major, major sevenths, major 9th, major 11th and major 13ths Minor " " " " " " " Dominant sevenths " " " " " dlloyd has a thread with all of this in somewhere. Work with the notes and a lot of your technique will develop simultaneously. [b]Study music not technique.[/b] And buy 'The Jazz Theory Book' by Mark Levine - its ALL in there.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='213444' date='Jun 5 2008, 07:58 PM']Yeah the audience might enjoy it but is that enough?[/quote] 100% agree. I say again 'If you play for applause, that is all you will ever get' - (Ellis Marsalis). I guess you could also substitute 'money' for 'applause'. I do care if the audience enjoys it but I did a jam session gig last night and it was utter twot but the audience enjoyed themselves. I like that they liked it but its not enough. Just throwing in a curve ball - I wonder if integrity needs, by definition, to be hard won. It is easy to have integrity, for instance, if you have £1m in the bank but a lot harder to do it with an overdraft. There are still people that do. There is a telling story in one of Paul Bley's books (I think its called Stopping Time) where he recalls living next to Steve Swallow and, when their electricity was cut off, each would run an extension lead to the others apartment so they could have power. Their commitment to their art was that strong. There are 100s of stories of jazz musicians (big names) roughing it in these kinds of ways just to keep it real for themselves. Admirable, stupid or both? Also, is integrity a noble state that we all aspire to and, accordingly, a state that forces us, consciously or otherwise, to justify our own decisions in order to maintain a self-image that allows us to retain some degree of that sense of nobility. Do we need to feel that we have integrity in order to feel ok about ourselves?

[quote name='Tinman' post='213620' date='Jun 6 2008, 06:56 AM']Are you honestly telling me Pete Docherty has integrity?[/quote] I have no idea. I have never met him.

And boy will we share it with you!!! Welcome to the world of Basschat!

Too much.

I don't know. What do you think?

Or is that an oversimplification?

Legitimate point but what are the criterion you are using? I was under the impression that this was a thread about function bands and integrity. I would, thus, from the comfort of my own a***, consider that, in terms of integrity, musicians that play their own music (in the broadest sense) are a cut above those who imitate others, however accurately. Those that do both are obviously compromised but I am in no way critical of them because they are living in the real world and not that of aesthetic theory. If the discussion were function bands vs staying at home a doing sod all, which it often is, function bands would win hands down. Or if it were function bands vs djs, I would vote for function bands every time. But the debate is about integrity and I don't think people who play in function bands (myself included - did I say that already?), as opposed to doing originals, can win any arguments on integrity. To attempt to do so is little more than a justification.

[quote name='Bassmurf' post='213159' date='Jun 5 2008, 01:04 PM']Well, I currently play with some old friends in a Status Quo cover band as they were desperate for a bassist, I'm not a fan of t'Quo but can appreciate the music, I find now having done it for nearly 3 years now that I've been getting seriously bored with the material as probably in any type of "boogie" band, the rhythm section can't really deviate from what has been written (and our drummer agrees!). I've never made so much money from gigging but have finally decided that I'm gonna quit at the end of the year as I can spend 2 hours doing the gig and it could go really well but I just don't get the buzz from playing the stuff as I would if I played songs by bands that I genuinely like/love.[/quote] Find another tribute band and swap gigs with the bass player

But that denies us the cut and thrust of debate!

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='213028' date='Jun 5 2008, 10:39 AM'][b]Definition of a typical jazz gig:[/b] Musicians playing 300 chords to an audience of 3 (and possibly a dog). [b]Definition of a typical rock/pop gig:[/b] Musicians playing 3 chords to an audience of 300[/quote] Although I did once do a HM gig to two people and a dog (in a pub in Harrow). Apparently, the dog was the mosher, his owner was dragged in off the street.

'boring self indulgent noodlings of jazz musicians' I'm gonna let that go. This time.

Yup, thass bubblegum! A good arrangement of these kinds of tunes is generally polishing turds. Nice and shiny but still fundamentally stools! Seriously, tho', I am not as much of a nazi as I appear. I can see why people like this stuff. Its low input, undemanding stuff. There is a shallow sense of satisfaction in seeing a room full of punters dancing to the stuff. But I fear that, if all anyone ever get is bubblegum or nostalgia, they will cease to expect anything more. Whilst there is a place for fast food, it would be a shame to see every decent restaraunt close and the only thing you could get to eat would be KFC.

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='212601' date='Jun 4 2008, 04:46 PM']If you approach the "standards" with a mindset that you're [b]churning them out to people who aren't really listening anway [/b]then guess what, they [b]won't[/b] really be listening. LOL I remain convinced that it's more down to the perception of the player than the perception of the audience. Music is, after all, a craft as well as art and there is surely pride to be had in executing a tune/song/bassline well?[/quote] I can perfectly understand the value of doing a professional job well and have never had any complaints (quite the opposite, in fact) - I would not consider the performances of most of the bands I play with to be poor/lacklustre by definition (sometimes they may be for other reasons but that is the nature of live music, particularly improvised music). I just think most covers bands are entirely predictable, as are many, many jazz performances. Live music should excite. Watching most covers bands just doesn't. I find it to be an increasingly tired concept and I think it has the potential to undermine itself in the longer term. I don't demand anything of an audience but I think the audiences should demand more of the bands it pays (directly or indirectly) to see.

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='212591' date='Jun 4 2008, 04:30 PM'][b]Q: [/b]Do you like the tunes you play, and are you enjoying the gig? [b]Yes: [/b]Shut up and play your bass. [b]No: [/b]Find another gig. This, my friends, is as complex as it gets.[/quote] How about Did you write the tunes you play? Yes - Shut up and play your bass No - Then just shut up! I wish I had that much integrity!

[quote name='ianrunci' post='212493' date='Jun 4 2008, 02:08 PM']So where does that leave us then? we have all pop and rock music which is shallow nonsense, Classical music which is mostly people playing covers, and Jazz music which is mostly people playing covers and a few people playing out of tune nonsense and calling it aventgarde. So whats left that actually has any integrity at all?[/quote] Errr.... that's my point. If its all covers, the whole thing dies, pop, classical, jazz, country, zydeco, reggae, folk.... all dead. There IS a lot of creative music out there, even some people playing out of tune nonsense and calling it avant-garde, but it rarely gets an outing because of all these covers bands clogging up the gigs! Let me make a point. I do a regular jazz gig in Bury St Edmunds, been doing it for 4 years. We do covers under the guise of jazz standards and, due to the generally conservative tastes of the bandleader, most of what we do is not particularly challenging. Our audience are not really listening; they look over in our direction once in a while and occasionally clap politely but it is what many call 'background music'. The standards we play are mostly the obvious Top 100 (the jazzers out there will know what I mean) but this audience demographic wouldn't know All The Things You Are if it walked in and bit them. Anyway, occasionally, someone pulls out a composition of their own and, because they have done a bit of work, written out a decent chart and have something resembling an arrangement, these compositions stand out and people notice them and comment positively. The great thing is, the farther 'out' we go, the more the audience responds. These people are mostly 20-30. What is apparent is that they respond to the ENERGY not to the notes. When we play something original, there is something less tired and stale about it. I just think if people stopped accepting covers bands, people would realise that their audience is more accommodating than we think and have more brains than we give then credit for. If the material is strong, they will get it. Remember, every song they ever hear they had to hear for the first time!

[quote name='ianrunci' post='212471' date='Jun 4 2008, 01:39 PM']Bubblegum? but then again thats down to personal taste isn't it? As I said one mans cheese is another mans masterpiece. Personally I can't stand any of the new rock music thats about (Artic Monkeys, Zutons, Kaisers etc ect) to me it all sounds like rehashed punk done badly but to other people it obviously has its merits. Original bands are great and there should be more of them. Like I said, not everyone wants to write and perform original music and to me that doesn't mean their artistry is superfluous. Their art comes in the way they translate thier own view of a particular line. A prime example of this is when well known bands recruit a new musician eg: Steve Morse with Deep Purple. Would you say that his versions of the old material are artisticly superfluous? Its all relative to any one individuals point of view[/quote] I would class the Kaiser Chiefs & the Zutons etc as another form of shallow nonsense but that's not my point (most rock music is as corporately sponsored as most other bubblegum music; the fans hate to acknowledge it because they like to think their artists have integrity but the 'brand' that is Marilyn Manson is as much a 'product' as the Kaiser Chiefs). My criticism is of OTHER PEOPLE playing the Kaiser Chiefs material. Steve Morse in Deep Purple is still Deep Purple doing Deep Purple material and their decisions regarding arrangements are their own so I won't criticise them for it. But if Steve Morse left and started a band called 'Smokey and the Waters' doing a DP tribute, he would go down in my estimation!

With respect to ianrunci, a great, complex and technically demanding bass line does not make a song great. Nor does a simple, 'boring' bass line make a song boring. Its a complex relationship between harmony, melody, rhythm, arrangement, timbres, lyrical content etc etc. 'Wake Me Up' may have a 'great' bass line but, as a whole, its still bubblegum. Pino may have ripped it up on 'Lady In Red' but I won't be rushing to iTunes to snap it up! I have said the same about a lot of James Jamerson's stuff. I worked through half of 'In The Shadows Of Motown' before realising that, whatever the merits of his lines (and they are 'interesting'), the songs they related to were pretty naff (IMO, obviously, before accuses me of lacking objectivity). So I stopped. A great groove or a great bass line is like the chassis on a car; whatever its merits, its only part of the whole picture. My problem with covers bands is, whatever their merits, they are artistically superfluous! Like photocopies of a piece of artwork. Don't mean I won' t play them, gain some limited degree of pleasure froim the process and take the money but, as I said, its a shallow victory. I know I am an idealist but it helps me cope with the world!