queenofthedepths

[quote name='tauzero' post='157131' date='Mar 14 2008, 01:18 AM']The future Mrs Zero can not only count the number of strings on a bass, she even has some vague idea of the difference between fretted and fretless[/quote] You're very lucky in love I'd love to have one of these but carrying it through doors can't be very easy, can it?

[quote name='jakesbass' post='157292' date='Mar 14 2008, 11:21 AM']are you suggesting pedant, that middle C and the C an octave above are the same note, they vibrate at different speeds and by my estimation are different notes [/quote] Ahaha not at all, although only one of my basses can play the octave above middle C (not that that's the point at all) - but if you include the root, the octave and all the notes in between, you have 13 notes; not 12! And if you include the octave below that, it's still only 7 more notes - after all, you only count the middle C once...

[quote name='dlloyd' post='157284' date='Mar 14 2008, 11:08 AM']You'll get there through the 'linear scale of fourths' but never through the 'linear scale of fifths'.[/quote] Ah okaeey - I'm pretty sure that's what I did - going down in fourths and equating this to fifths... if I'd gone up in fifths I'd have come to G#?

[quote name='dlloyd' post='157274' date='Mar 14 2008, 10:50 AM']Key of F## major? Certainly legitimate... admittedly downright odd and unnecessary. Most of the time I see double sharps denoted as 'x' rather than '##'[/quote] Yeah, it would seem that any note with any number of sharps or flats after it would be legitimate, if you arrived there as a result of numerous key changes... I was explaining all this about equal temperament to my friend last night and mentioned that if you go around the cycle (or spiral, I like that idea) of fifths from Ab, you'll end up with a Bbbb - I fail to see how it could be anything else?

The Peter Gunn theme

[quote name='Mikey D' post='156884' date='Mar 13 2008, 05:54 PM']Of course it was well intentioned, I see the forum as a place for learning and only answer if I know something about a subject (I wish only everyone did this), if they wanted to read more they can, they don't have to.[/quote] I appreciate it anyway - I've looked into wikipedia for more clarification and it's certainly food for thought

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='156837' date='Mar 13 2008, 04:51 PM']There are 12 notes in an octave and eight in any given key. That's a 66% chance of hitting a 'right' note even if you try it randomly[/quote] [pedant]Surely there are only 7 notes in any key? If you include the octave as well as the root, that's 13 notes in an octave! So it's not quite 66%...[/pedant] Congratulations on finding the courage - now just keep at it!

[quote name='aryustailm' post='156858' date='Mar 13 2008, 05:12 PM']The terminology of music (scale names etc) is ONLY useful to communicate verbally with other people about music.[/quote] And so you can learn it yourself in the first place... but yeah, that's exactly what theory is for

[quote name='cheddatom' post='156643' date='Mar 13 2008, 12:19 PM']This guy sounds interesting, can we have a link or something? Your post was very good! I need to take a break from this thread for today or i'll get shouted at for not getting any work done![/quote] Ahaha, thank you - I ought to be taking a break for a good while too! You'll probably be a bit disappointed by the contents of the myspazz - let me say that it's not been updated in ages, the songs on there are far from the cream and have been improved upon since being uploaded (as I said, he's always fiddling); also the compression process on myspace doesn't do the sound any favours... in general it's a bit AIDS (I think we just HAD to put the bit about major label interest on there - it is myspace after all), but if you bear that in mind along with the fact that he recorded it all in his small bedroom, with nothing other than a guitar, a microphone, a distortion pedal, some cables, a computer and occasionally some random objects like drainpipes (and sometimes me with my old bass), maybe you can appreciate it a bit better www.myspace.com/dassein Technically I'm a member of the band, and indeed a lot of the tracks feature my bass lines (and there is one with me replicating a sound effect from Age of Empires), but we've only ever had one disastrous rehearsal and the two of us are the only stable members, so the prospects of ever playing live or making anything of this are sadly diminished A pity, really, as this is what I'd rather be doing than a degree, but nobody gets paid just to be an artist, so knuckling down to the system is what we all have to do *sigh*

[quote name='cheddatom' post='156555' date='Mar 13 2008, 10:33 AM']If there are melodies that use the movements you've been practising then IMHO you should have been practising those melodies in the first place.[/quote] That would only work if you knew in advance what melodies you're going to want to play, which does rather defeat the purpose of improvisation! And I was under the impression that bringing all your practise techniques into the music was supposed to be a bad thing The best practise is that which you enjoy - nobody's forcing you to be a musician, so if you don't think it's worth practising difficult, non-musical stuff, fair enough! Some of us aim to push ourselves musically, some of us want to be able to improvise, some of us want to learn covers and some of us are pros who need to be at the top of the game - if your aim is to write music and then practise until you can play it, maybe your method is most appropriate, but it can't hurt to try our way for a month or two, can it? My best friend (a multi-instrumentalist) works in a similar way to you; he writes (startlingly good, IMO) songs and then records them, fiddling until they sound perfect, and the only practise he does is playing his own songs and bits of stuff he's learned by ear - it's very much his own style and I admire him immensely... but here's the catch He listens to everything he can and takes his influences directly from the music he listens to; in fact he goes so far as to aim to sound like these artists (he samples a lot too) - he also knows his theory, having played cornet, double bass and piano before taking up guitar... in spite of all this, his music still sounds like nothing you've ever heard before [quote name='cheddatom' post='156568' date='Mar 13 2008, 10:45 AM']I have never refused to accept the validity of music theory! I accept it for what it is. All I am saying is "I wonder if we really need it" or, would a player who didn't have it be a less conventional player? Does less conventional mean good? Do you have to be able to play harder things than you actually need to to be a good player? etc etc etc.[/quote] Yes, we need it - without it we'd still be bashing rocks together (or as I suggested earlier, setting off alarm clocks at random and humming) and nobody would have made any real musical instruments ever A player without it would, again, just be bashing rocks together and, as unconventional as this would be, it would most likely take hundreds of years of people expanding on your style to make it sound anywhere near listenable - so no, less conventional does NOT mean good! If you hear some music and think "ooh, that sounds original" - it's almost certainly not original; it's just innovative; if you wanna create innovative music, assimilate all the theory and music history you can and strive to build on that (as opposed to either just ignoring it or doing something completely different)... you can't change history, and you certainly can't change the fact that you already have influences and these will be reflected in your playing - just accept it! As for being able to play harder things than you need to... if you can't, that means that you'll be playing at the peak of your ability every time you're on stage! I find it hard to believe that anyone can [b]consistently[/b] play at the absolute peak of their ability - unless you play well within your comfort zone, you will screw up Oh btw, Kant and Hume really are incredibly dull to read! If you make it all the way through Critique of Judgement you're probably deserving of some sort of prize - also [i]Of the Standard of Taste[/i] is here: [url="http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/361r15.html"]http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/361r15.html[/url] [quote name='cheddatom' post='156612' date='Mar 13 2008, 11:37 AM']But if you learn in that way, you might develop weird new scales and shapes, which are combinations of what theory already describes but sound like a totally new style. Just one possibility?[/quote] It's even more likely you'll come up with something like that if you learn the theory first! If you start from nothing, you might spend several hours devising the harmonic minor scale, when you could have just found it in a book! If you wanna re-invent the wheel, you have to know what a wheel is first

[quote name='7string' post='156412' date='Mar 12 2008, 11:40 PM']I don't think that you can be genre-specific here. Can we say bassists from heavy groups, such as Rex Brown, don't put in just as much time as our beloved Janek ?? There are virtuoso bassists in every genre, not just jazz.[/quote] I'm not denying his merits as a bassist - far from it; although it's not really my cup of tea, I don't mind playing some of his lines... I wasn't speculating that because he plays metal but doesn't play like Stephan Fimmers, he obviously doesn't practise much - he stated in an interview that he NEVER practises! So I thought he was a good example

No ideas, anyone?

[quote name='Finbar' post='156349' date='Mar 12 2008, 09:47 PM']Forgot to mention, hah! This went quite a while ago o_O Sorry Michael! As for the Highcliffe... it just isn't as good as the Prince of Wales. The best pubs are those seedy ones in town though ;p Fagans! lolol[/quote] My favourite pub in Sheffield is definitely the Devonshire Cat

I'm not really a Bristolian! I just happen to live here temporarily Wales is where I belong!

[quote name='jakesbass' post='156310' date='Mar 12 2008, 08:17 PM']oops need glasses!!! the headaches have been telling me that for ages[/quote] Or you need to spend less time on basschat, staring at the computer screen! I think that's true of a great deal of us, though - drummers and loud cabs will do for our hearing while basschat ruins our eyesight

[quote name='cheddatom' post='156188' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:57 PM']OK, but you are building subjectivity into your answer. Of course some of us will think one bass player is sh*t and another sh*t-hot. We all have different opinions. If this is the case then how is it possible to become better, other than within your own subjectivity? For example, I might have a friend who loves really sloppyily played basslines with plenty of bum notes. In my opinion, i'd have to get worse to get better in his opinion. Bearing all that in mind, how is it possible to say "learning music theory makes you a better bass player"? I admit i'm being a bit of a tw@ now, but as I said to you before, i'm an argumentative f*cker [/quote] I know you're not keen on studying theory, but you could learn a lot from Hume and Kant! Since I've been (quite accurately) told on this forum that 18th century texts on aesthetics aren't lovely material ([url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=9371&pid=154875&st=20&#entry154875"]see this quote if you wanna know why[/url]), allow me to sum up the essence of the relevant parts of Hume's "Of the Standard of Taste" and Kant's "Critique of Judgement" Hume: beauty (or in this case musical excellence) can be determined by educated men who have refined taste i.e. Jake Kant: a judgement of beauty is one which demands universal assent - if your friend genuinely likes bass lines which normally are described as poor, he should insist upon everyone else's agreement

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='156136' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:08 PM']Do we? I must be missing something, snot box!!! [/quote] [quote name='jakesbass' post='156160' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:25 PM']now you're talking. Arse beard [/quote] Oh dear oh dear! Who let the jazz cats on the Internet?

The trouble with "originality" is that it gives an advantage to people who were lucky enough to be born earlier - if I played like Jaco 40 years ago, people would have been impressed and when Jaco came along he'd have been nothing, but if I play the same bass lines now, it's not "original" because it's already been done... Musical merit is irrelevant to the timeline, but originality is awarded to whoever gets there first, so a better word is "innovation", which gives modern musicians the advantage of being able to draw on what's gone before and take it a step further - if you disregard that advantage completely and just "play" with no previous knowledge of how the instrument is intended to be used, what you're doing may well be original, but it may well be, as Jake said, just breaking wind! You have to know how to play your instrument, and if you're going to accept any advice at all on how to play ("Try this; it's a bass guitar and will sound better than humming and setting off alarm clocks at random"), you may as well accept all that's available - the only way we're gonna get anywhere (unless by sheer chance you're very very lucky) is by standing on the shoulders of giants However, there is a point where studying theory and practising is a waste of time... for you, Rex Brown and whoever else, not much practise at all is necessary; for Janek Gwizdala and various other virtuosos, practising 10 hours a day has to take priority over watching TV or whatever else you want to do in the rest of your free time The one other thing I will confidently say is this: practising technique, learning theory and even copying Nuno's solos will not hinder your creativity; poor taste and failure to do the above WILL

Ah, still more fascinating... must explain why fretless is so wonderful!

That's fascinating, but I'm not quite sure I understand... are you saying that if Bach (for example; could be any pre-equal temperament musician) wrote an Ab, it would sound different to a G#? If so, how would one go about playing these different notes on a harpsichord? Or a flute or whatever... or even a fretted bass guitar? If I've understood that article correctly, the 1st fret on a standard tuned G string is half a comma sharper than a G# and half a comma flatter than an Ab? But I always thought we had equal temperament as standard ever since Pythagoras anyway

[quote name='dlloyd' post='156006' date='Mar 12 2008, 02:28 PM']You're joking, right?[/quote] Ahaha, I have edited my post slightly

[quote name='dlloyd' post='155956' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:35 PM']Learning theory in isolation of ear training is essentially worthless[/quote] Not a fan of Beethoven then? [quote name='bassbloke' post='155974' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:58 PM'][quote name='cheddatom' post='155775' date='Mar 12 2008, 09:35 AM'] I'm technically not very good, but I have no problem at all expressing myself on my bass. I can play anything I want. The only time I want to improve is when my guitarist comes up with something I can't play fast enough with my fingers, but don't want a pick sound for.[/quote] It's one thing to contradict yourself across multiple posts in a thread, but to contradict yourself twice in the same thread just shows that, as with previous threads, you have nothing particularly constructive to contribute and are just being contrary for the sake of it. [/quote] Quite a bit harsh, but fair point Tom, what you're saying is that you're technically inept, but then you contradict that by saying that you can play anything you want... Then you contradict yourself again by saying that sometimes you feel the need to improve, so clearly you CAN'T play anything you want You seem to be equating technical ability with knowledge of theory, when studying theory is just a way to become technically good! There are other ways, such as your own (although you've admitted that this isn't sufficient, because sometimes you can't play fast enough) - studying theory is the accepted norm, as it is the result of hundreds of years of the best musos working on it... of course for some people (many of whom are to some extent too lazy or "ergonomic" to learn something before they've found a use for it - no offence mate, but I am talking about you here! Unless you have another reason to shirk theory that you haven't explained to us? We're all lazy in some ways though so don't see it as a bad thing), theory is NOT the best way to learn; educational psychologists have proven that we all have a unique way of learning things, but studying theory is most appropriate for most musicians [quote name='cheddatom' post='155985' date='Mar 12 2008, 02:07 PM'][quote name='jakesbass' post='155981' date='Mar 12 2008, 02:04 PM'] you need to know what the boundaries are before you have a chance of breaking them[/quote] That's not true! It's just you wouldn't know that you've broken them. [/quote] You may well think you're breaking boundaries, but maybe you're just playing something which can be simply explained by theory and is not far from something quite commonplace, but you don't recognise it?

If it bothers you, call it Gb and put a Cb in it!

Ooh now there's an idea! At least until someone organises a Bristol one Pretty much any weekend is cool for me (I'm guessing nobody wants a weekday bash) - what's this place like?

Having moved here last September and joined an established band a couple of months later, I've played 2 gigs in the Croft and 1 in the Fleece, none of which have been for money - I've now been instructed to find some gigs for the band (coz apparently I'd be good at doing so; not sure why...) Here's our myspace: www.myspace.com/distortedspace - I didn't make it but I could offer to make it look a lot better; is the presentation of a myspazz that important..? We don't have a huge following at the moment; nor do I expect we ever will - 'tis just a bit of fun, but playing for free when the punters are paying £4 is taking the piss and does rather detract from the fun We're possibly acquiring a new guitarist soon but for now we're a fairly mobile three-piece; not too demanding... anyway, ideally I'd like to get paid at least enough to get me to the gig on the bus and buy a couple of drinks to bribe friends to come along - anything extra would be a bonus So basically I'd just like some Bristol-specific (or just generally useful) advice on where and how to get a couple of paid gigs for my band! Once or twice a month for a few pennies is sufficient, really