Andyjr1515

Good news! The tuning held true. No sign at all of movement. Tuning held overnight so I think the neck is stable. I might add a cross-dowel in the heel just to be doubly sure the neck doesn't split from the body upwards but other than that, it seems strong enough. In fact, very strong. The trussrod tightens fine but does nothing at all to the neck relief. But actually, releasing all the tension on the strings does nothing either. Basically, I think the neck is so stiff, it isn't moving at all. That might be OK. I will be taking off the frets, flattening the fretboard and refretting. As long as it never moves, it should be fine (a number of basses nowadays have carbon rods and no trussrod - same principle)...but of course there is no guarantee. As expected, the action is very high due to zero neck angle paired with a T-o-M bridge. I think the bridge (and stop tail to some extent) will need to be recessed into the body and dropped by about 5mm to get a decent action. There's enough depth to do this although it will mean that intonation adjustments would require slackening the strings to lift the bridge out of the recess to get to the adjustment screws. I don't think that is a big issue as it is very rare for basses to need intonation changes once they've been initially set. Warwick bridges and stop tails are similarly recessed so it is not such an unusual state of affairs. Mick and I are now starting to discuss the final shape, the finish and, of course, the pickup types and arrangements. One question Mick has asked is whether it was at all feasible to put a curvature to the body cross-section similar to Warwick or my own bubinga fretless? I think the answer is probably yes to a reasonable degree. The top can't be cambered any more than it is already because the control chamber is too close to the upper surface. However, it is feasible to scoop out the back by 5 or 6mm, reflecting the curvature of the top: I actually think that might be a nice thing to do. It's a chunky old thing, as the folk at the Midlands Bash saw, and scalloped out at the back might look pretty cool and also take a bit of bulk out of it....

The crucial test - the go forward or not test - is underway...and so far so good If the neck is stable under string tension, we have a live rebuild. If not, then it's back to the drawing board. Mick had sent me some nice Sperzel tuners, a brass nut and a T-o-M bridge and stop tail. For the string test, the only thing I needed to fit was the stop tail and tuners. The latter will need a bit of work, but good enough for this test - clearly a previous owner was indecisive where to fit them: Next was a rough fret flattening - the frets are coming out but they need to be flat to be able to measure the relief and truss-rod effectiveness. You can see by the levelling beam swarf that it's a bit bowed!: Next was fitting the T-o-M stop tail bushes. Mick's preferred string length is medium so the stop tail has to be a bit closer to the bridge than normal to ensure the strings are clear of the binding at the nut. This was one of those check, double-check, triple-check, double-triple check occasions: Then loose fit the nut, loose fit the bridge and string her up! And so far so good. No sign whatsoever of strain or movement on the neck, tuning holding so far. I'll leave it overnight and then do some checks of the bow, relief, effectiveness (and/or need) of the truss rod etc., before hopefully declaring an end to the first phase, that of feasibility and structural checks Andy

There was great interest in this at the Bash. Two things came out of it: Confirmation that those oak panels have got to go. They almost move before your very eyes I have seen the inspiration and aspiration....Norris's reconditioned Aria! Let's hope it survives the stringing up test....

No pics I'm afraid (I'm sure some will be arriving soon) but thoroughly enjoyable do... Special thanks to Simon for organising, Andrew (D'Addario) for the great support, advice and raffle prizes and, of course, Jo (Mrs Chris S) for the divine and sublime orange and lemon drizzle cakes. Good to catch up. Too many impressive things to remember but things that come to mind include: the sheer perfection of Jabba's (Jez) builds - aspirational; a beautiful Wal ; Norris' EUB and wonderfully restored Aria; Button's buttons and effects; a lovely Vigier; some splendid D'Addario strings; Len_Derby's (Neil) acoustic bass. Here's to the next one

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1462625365' post='3044479'] Andyjr1515 - Splendid fellow. I met him recently when he agreed to have a look at my B2A. By arrangement I took the stick to his place and we discussed what would be worth doing and what would be nice to have if time and money were of no concern. He's quite a pleasant chap to talk with and we settled on a repair/replacement of the seemingly inoperative pre-amp, a change of jack socket and a light polish on the fretboard. The pre-amp turned out to be okay when he put in the new battery that I had supplied. If memory serves, the last time I tried it and thought it had failed I had used a rechargeable battery. I read recently (elsewhere on this forum) that rechargeable batteries don't always work in B2As. He told me when he rang to update me that the amp was fine and needed no further attention. He did the job in slightly less than a week. He even dropped it off at ours and stopped for a chat. All he wanted was for his expenses to be covered. It was a relatively minor job and Andy may have a tendency to undersell his work so I made sure he could have a couple of drinks for his trouble. I am happy now that I have a crackle-free connection. The stick sounds good because I don't tense up in trying not to cause crackle. The fret board is nicely oiled and the frets twinkle when they catch the light - nice. Thank you Andy. I am happy to recommend you should anyone be looking for assistance with their guitar maintenance. [/quote] Thanks for this John! The jack socket is often the culprit - happily it was this time too. Very glad to help - hope you enjoy gigging with it

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1462547199' post='3043960'] What a shame that the Midlands Bash has had to be cancelled this weekend... Never mind, Andy can hopefully use the time to do a bit more work on my bass.. [/quote]

Thanks for this, Kert Gosh - you and Mick could make an old-git blush I'm delighted that you like the bass so much...it was a thrill to see how it ended up from those early tentative discussions. I loved doing it. Every one of these projects brings something new and that's where the satisfaction comes from. Mick's 'Alembic-esque' is still at the will-it-or-wont-it stage but it will be just as great a thrill to get that to how Mick and I have it in our heads. Great hobby this...and some great folks on this forum Andy

Well, in light of the above, it is clear that the oak is actually a major part of the problem. Some of it is that it is cross-grained, but look at this, the panel I managed to remove and which was still solidly stuck at the join line before I removed it....here it is lined up with the front horn curves: ...and this is where it is at the back: It's shrunk around 3mm since I took it off less than a week ago. Lengthways (ie along the length of the grain) it has actually GROWN by around 1.5mm. With that kind of movement - and the evidence that most of the issues have been around the two oak panels - I have to revert to a more standard 'luthier' approach....the oak has got to go. So yes - I now have to remove the one panel I spent the last 2 days fixing extremely securely, but basically they both need taking off and new panels need putting in their place that are the correct grain direction and whose properties are more compatible with the mahogany and maple. I have agreed with Mick that we will use these lovely bookmatched walnut pieces: It will look lovely with the quite deep carve of the panels... But before I do that and add the additional cost, I'm going to test the strength of the neck. Mick has sent me some machine heads and strings, and so I will now fit the TOM stop tail, the tuners and nut and get it up to playing tension to see what happens...

Thanks, Kert I'm delighted you're pleased with it. It was a very satisfying and enjoyable build. Andy

Clamps are off and the 'non-luthier' fix is holding: Glue lines are generally pretty small but - more importantly - the panels are very securely held. The manner in which this bass has delaminated has given an interesting example of differential properties in woods and the internal stresses and strains in a multi-laminate construction and the desirability to make laminates compatible. See the raised central neck splice in the above picture? It is [i]completely [/i]flat at the other side - it has simply expanded, because it could, more than the maple and mahogany either side. You see it again here. The oak back panel (cross grained) is pretty well joined at the neck splice: But overhangs by at least 1mm at the edges: In both cases, the expanded wood is oak. I suspect when I look at the Wood Database for oak, I will find that the dimensional stability of oak with changing temperature or moisture is significantly worse than maple or mahogany. This expansion and contraction can be all held together with decent glue, but can produce unexpected results if the glue holds (eg warped necks, etc) or strains on the glue joints if atmospheric conditions change, that can lead to failures of the joints, thus letting more moisture and exacerbating the movement. If I'm right, then it's no surprise that the major cracks are at oak joints... If I'm wrong....well...that would not be a surprise either

Mahogany body splice seems to be holding well. Only a thin glue line that will be pretty invisible once resanded and finished. Today, I am giving the other peeling backpanel the same treatment - it's only coming off at the horn so should hold OK, glued with the same kind of clamping pressure (trust me - it's a different picture ) Once that has cured fully, tomorrow, it will allow me to flatten and re-square up the other fully removed back panel and hopefully get that glued back too.

Hi Mel Most of the usual suspects have already been mentioned. My starting point for pickup height is usually 4mm bridge and 5.5mm neck so with the adjustment you've already made (assuming neck pup height is OK) it is unlikely to be excessive magnetic pull. The thing that makes me wonder is that the same string and fret will vary between plucks and the tuners sometimes act in reverse. That does not fit the normal pattern of tight nuts, bridge, etc.. It fits with duff strings but you've eliminated that. So a couple more things to check relating to the stability of the neck: 1. What is the neck relief like? And is it stable, that is, consistent each time you measure 2. The neck bolts may be tight, but is the neck secure and properly seated. That is, with the strings off, does the neck move in its seating? Andy

[quote name='roman_sub' timestamp='1462286662' post='3041779'] Is it me, or is the "spot the difference" answer is the 24th fret is now missing? [/quote] You win today's special prize, roman_sub. The prize is so special, you can't see it, hear it, touch it or smell it....but it's there all the same....trust me I took the 24th out because it was loose and also raised right across its length, making lining up with a levelling beam inaccurate. All the frets will have to come out in any case - they are a very odd shape, most are raised at one or both sides and they seem to have been attacked by aliens. Also the fretboard needs straightening and re-radiusing. Mick and I are pretty sure there have been two builders at work on this bass - the first, a skilled luthier, capable of producing a very fine, technically advanced instrument in an interesting variety of woods; the second, a over-enthusiastic boilermaker, using all the tools at his disposal with gusto (lead mallet, bolster, sledgehammer, plumbers-mate sealant). Those of you who are at the Midlands bash on Saturday will be able to see what we mean...Mick's happy for me to bring it along

A couple more evaluation checks and a bit more progress. Mick wants a Tune-o-matic bridge with stop-tail. Normally, the neck angle in a thru-neck would be predetermined at the build stage, usually with a 3 to 5 degree angle to match the height of a tune-o-matic. This has been built flat-angled for a standard low profile bridge and I needed to calculate whether a T-O-M could be accommodated, both in angle terms and position of the stop tail. I think - with a Warwick-type recess for the T-O-M to drop around 4mm - I can get it low enough with the existing angle. The stop tail will also be low enough for an adequate break angle. The combination will probably cover all but a single row of existing predrilled holes used for the old bridge. I also spent a long time cleaning up the crud in the split between one of the mahogany body sections and the maple layer next to it. I have some HUGE clamping force on this with some very good glue. Based on the squeeze-out and the very thin remaining joint line, I think it's clamped as well as it could be so will be a decent test for stability when the strings are put on for the final strength evaluation: Mick's sending me some tuners and strings this week. It should be ready to string up for the final strength-based feasibility part of this project which will include the effectiveness of the truss rod. That should be done by early next week. If all goes well, the major steps will then be:[list] [*]Strip down, sand, and reform the joint lines [*]Defret and re-radius the fretboard [*]Re shape the neck to accommodate a narrower nut (present is a massive 47.5mm) [*]Refret [*]Route out for pickups and electronics [*]Refinish [*]Reassemble [/list] Fingers crossed it all holds together to render those steps necessary....

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1461313185' post='3033507'] I could bring an NS WAV-4 along too if that would be of interest, and former cellist Mrs Zero. [/quote] Many apologies, tauzero ... completely missed this I'm always interested in seeing these things for real - and it's a super, super design, so if it's not a problem to bring it along, great . On the other hand, I think my own makes a better wall hanging than an instrument and I have no plans to make another one, so don't worry if it's extra hassle. I just can't hold the pesky things properly and they (violins) play havoc with my arthritis! Hence the thoughts on a cello...

[quote name='Si600' timestamp='1461261352' post='3033106'] Are Andy and Jabba bringing their latest projects? [/quote] I might bring my own OM Acoustic instead...it would be a beggar if I dropped the dreadnought before I gave it to birthday boy! I'll also bring the new Bubinga fretless (and the veneered VM jag I brought last time)

To most of you, this will look exactly the same...but to me this makes me very, very happy : No crack in the middle. What's more, with lots and lots of weight on either wing trying to intentionally break the back, no movement, no gaps, no creaks. Clearly, it's only when the strings are on under full tension that you know for sure, but I'm beginning to think that this might be strong enough... In the meantime, I'm cleaning up some of the smaller splits on the other side of the back to see if I can stabilise those in a similar way.

I've done a lot of pondering on this and am probably going to go the Andyjr1515 unconventional way. Experienced luthiers might want to look away My logic is this. The conventional approach would be to either:[list] [*]Judge that the bass is irrecoverable [/list] or[list] [*]Take it apart absolutely bit by bit and rebuild [/list] My approach assumes:[list] [*]To attempt to take it apart bit by bit would probably render it irrecoverable anyway [/list] So, the unconventional approach is this:[list] [*]Secure the central split to ensure there is no unplanned parting and splitting of the neck woods while wrestling with the remaining loose body panels. This may be temporary or permanent. [*]Attempt to remove the two remaining water-split body panels. This will confirm if the glue that is still stuck really is as tight a bond and that it is as resistant to 'normal' de-glue and disassembly approaches as I think it might be. [/list] If they come off more easily:[list] [*]dissassemble where necessary and possible [/list] If they don't come off then, rather than abandon the project, instead simply switch to a pragmatic and empirical approach:[list] [*]Floss, clean, glue and clamp the splits [*]Drill a stabilising dowel through the heel laminates [*]Fit (budget) bridge, nut and tuners [*]String it up and check the stability, straightness and adjustability of the neck [*]If it's not OK, proceed no further and knock around the options with Mick [*]If it [i]is [/i]OK, then put the effort into the pickup, electrics and finishing preparation and the financial outlay into the pickups [/list] Whatever, that central split needed to be stabilised: I spent some time this morning carefully 'flossing' with sandpaper until the sawdust from both sides consistently came out wood-coloured (the crack is conveniently all the way through allowing 2' of sandpaper to be pulled through at each stroke ): Then, significant squeeze-in and distribution of Titebond Extend before some serious sash-clamping and screw-clamping. Based on the squeeze-out at both sides, I'm pretty sure the glue got everywhere: Got a gig this evening, so I won't be tempted to touch it until tomorrow

Our old-gits-band have been covering Purple Rain for years...but for the same reason, probably need to drop it for a bit. Pity he couldn't have kept going until one of us beat him to it...can't be too long

[quote name='Manton Customs' timestamp='1461541089' post='3035587'] With the grain orientated like that on the back it'd definitely cause issues like seam separation if given half a chance (such as damp conditions). I'd probably replace the back if possible for that reason, as it could happen again! Your guesses on the wood species sound about right to me . Definitely looks like an Ash top with Mahogany and Maple. The back could also be Ash, but it appears to have those white marking low down on the bass side wing. They are an Oak trademark usually and won't be present in Ash. Good luck with it! Look forward to seeing it restored [/quote] I think you're right about the back being Oak. The end grain that can now be seen on the edge of the section I've got off, looks just like Oak end grain.... Thanks for the tip-off

Started the exploratory stages today. These included:[list] [*]Will it be possible to remove the split sections? [*]How strong is the glue that [i]hasn't[/i] failed? [*]Does the truss rod work? [*]Will the neck be usable and, if so, will the neck angle be able to accommodate Mick's preferred Tune-o-matic bridge arrangement. [/list] The first thing to do was to make sure that the split in the body didn't extend all the way up the neck while I was moving things around. Presently, the split in the one thru-neck splice through the body extends to - but thankfully not past - the heel. I put on a violin clamp at the heel that stopped any inadvertent widening of the split from the heel upwards: ...and, when access would allow, clamped the body to try to put minimum strain on the existing crack: My first target was to see just how easily the 'almost off to start with' rear right layer would come off. The answer is - not very easily at all. Considering that 90% of the layer was already showing daylight, the final 10% was an absolute beggar. I tried steam - lots of it at pretty high pressure directly into the gap - using a steam mop adapter: I used a spatula, heated to almost red hot. I used a stiff scraper, again very hot. I used a pull saw, heated. I used stainless steel acoustic side bending sheet: In the end, I got the big bas***d out: Even once I'd got the whole section free at the bottom - and the side was already cracked at the glue joint halfway, like this: ... it still took hot knives, sharp knives and - in the end - a few chisel blows to finally release it: With it having taken me about 4 hours to get this off, with pretty much all the tools and techniques you would expect for a job like this - and remember it was 90% off to start with - I have drawn a few initial conclusions:[list] [*]The glue joints that haven't already failed are probably OK. When I was trying to release the edge of the section above, if the glue had been brittle, it would have just snapped off once I could start levering the whole thing. It didn't! It took me another hour of hot knives and platters and, in the end, a chisel, to release it. [*]I think it would be almost impossible to get any of the remaining split panels off (the worst have less than 25% separation) without something irrevocably splitting or snapping. So for the others, I think it is a 'clean it up as best as possible in the splits, force glue in, clamp very tightly' [/list] Other things I checked were:[list] [*]the truss rod - I [i]think [/i]that works well enough. I certainly works, although I don't know yet whether there is enough adjustment [*]the neck angle. To fit a TOM bridge almost certainly will mean routing a slot for it to sit low enough for a decent action. Early days yet for that discussion because: [*]...the frets may have to come off anyway and the fretboard re-radiused and refretted. The frets are all over the place, although the neck itself seems relatively warp-free. I'm not certain there's enough metal to be able to sand them down enough for a straight starting point [/list] Anyway - that is all academic unless I can glue the body back to the required stability...that will be where I focus my ponderings and tests and trials.

[quote name='Manton Customs' timestamp='1461541089' post='3035587'] With the grain orientated like that on the back it'd definitely cause issues like seam separation if given half a chance (such as damp conditions). I'd probably replace the back if possible for that reason, as it could happen again! Your guesses on the wood species sound about right to me . Definitely looks like an Ash top with Mahogany and Maple. The back could also be Ash, but it appears to have those white marking low down on the bass side wing. They are an Oak trademark usually and won't be present in Ash. Good luck with it! Look forward to seeing it restored [/quote] Really interesting stuff ref the white markings - I wouldn't have known that's an oak signature

[quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1461331860' post='3033780'] Ok gents, bit rushed this month. Would've liked it to be a bit cleaner but here it is: [url="https://soundcloud.com/tona-fied/noodle-3"]https://soundcloud.c...a-fied/noodle-3[/url] Yes, i did warn you they might be some slap this month!! The first part of the noodle is kind of a hybrid picking style, and the second is slap. Hope it's not too offensive Edit to say it was recorded with a eden amp simulation (i think) on Line 6 podfarm. Little bass boost, little treble boost. Little compression. [/quote] Sounds great to me, Kert. Is it 'THE' bass? Andy

Yes, me too... I like this very much...

I'm not entirely sure, but I'm thinking the neck is an oak middle, then maple, then mahogany. At the headstock, there is an extra slice of maple and what looks like mahogany, but is a different shade to the main splice, so might be a different wood altogether. The body middle I reckon is maple, then mahogany either side, but I wonder if the top and bottom splices might be ash. It certainly looks like ash at the top. At the bottom, it's the same wood but there are birds eye-like blips and it has been laid on cross grain...and that looks less like ash to me. And just to finish the materials analysis, the fretboard is ebony, and the glue is absolutely genuine 1970's Golden Shred Marmalade...