Rick's Fine '52

[quote name='Kong' timestamp='1316514543' post='1378937']
No, not my church, I don't agree. This planks are made to play on, and they deserve the right enviroment - dark, damp and
smokey pubs. OK, mine is not as old as Yours, I've got a 1964 Precision, but I take to the places where I need it. It is already
worn out a little bit (more than that, I'll add a photo soon), and every little ding or dong adds more mojo to it.

I think, there are races for old cars, and even a Ferrari GTO 250 gets damaged at this races. I don't believe in making of
things of dayly use a holy grail. They are made for using them, and they should be used.

In the 70's an old Fender Pre bass, built in 1958, was nothing else than an old bass. Many of them, built in the late 50's or
during the 60's, got violated in the early 80's by adding a Jazz-Bass pickup in bridge - Position. This is not the right way to
treat such an instrument. (You don't use the wheels of a Ford Capri on a vintage Ferrari, do You?)

But You have to use it! Standing in a corner (or behind glass) doesn't make things better. I apreciete Your point of view, but
I don't believe in the "Fender-Vintage - hype". I use my old Fender in any giging - situation - but be sure, I have my eye on
this brave, old axe while not hanging around my neck...
[/quote]


Horses for courses. In 1952 a Fender Precision was made for playing, 60odd years later, and a near mint, unmolested version, has, whether you like it or not, become an instrument of significant importance, and should be in a museum, not in the Red Lion Pub. Don't know anyone else who would think differently. Personally, i have over a dozen guitars i can use for gigging, and not stand next to, on guard the whole evening, the really rare stuff though, is still played, by me, but not down the local pub. That would be simply ridiculous, and only a fool would do so, or someone who doesnt respect the instrument enough to deserve to own it. Why would anyone do that?? Thank God i dont know any other players/collectors like that. Nonsense. If you have a worn '64, then thats a very different scenario. Nice bass all the same, great players those.

Just out of interest, what current race do you know of, that includes all original, mint Ferrari 250 Daytona's??? I doubt it very much.

Bought a fabulous P-Bass from Owen, that is now my new toy, loving it to bits, nice addition to the arsenal.

Easy deal, no hassle at all.

Would definitely recommend.

Thanks Owen.

[quote name='Donnyboy' timestamp='1316358156' post='1376871']

If The early Squiers were" Japanese Vintage" versions of 1950's & 60's Fenders & started in 1982(?) does that make them Double Vintage?
[/quote]

Ha, why not indeed, double vintage it is then, for '82 JV's.

[quote name='gareth' timestamp='1316359008' post='1376886']


I have told this story before, but when i got back into playing bass about 10 years ago, a friend of mine bought me several precisions to try

There were several 60's and a vintage reissue.

The vintage reissue was vastly superior to the very tired 60's precisions in all respects and this is the bass i bought and still have - subsequently I realised that its a fullerton vintage reissue
[/quote]


the '82/'83 fullerton reissues are definitely superior to the later AV's, as they changed personnel and parts in '84, and went progressively downhill from there.

Minor point though, this thread is about what year you consider 'vintage' to start, not about quality. There are many good reissues out there, are they better than a good original, in my opinion no, because out of the hundredes of reissues i've played, they have never been as good as an original, there [i]are[/i] bad originals out there though, but it depends entirely on the individual instrument.

[quote]I have a few custom shop bass, vintage style and from different years
I have also try a few real old fender bass and of course the reissue series

The CS are the best bass you can own in terms of finish and sound

If you are concerned about the resale value buy a used CS
[/quote]

I agree.

I wouldnt buy a US Vinatge reissue, because for the extra little bit of cash, you can get a Custom Shop, which form my experience, they are alot better, better pickups, better hardware, lighter bodies, more time spent on the finishing etc. A good nick US AV will cost about £1000, for an extra £250 you can get a CS NOS, and for an extra £400+ (depending on model), you can get a CS Relic, and for alot less you get a Roadworn.

Regarding your comment about appreciation/depreciation and possibly investing in a 70's model instead, my opinion, for what it's worth, is this;

Investment wise, the AV will lose a small amount every year, as will the CS models, they won't increase, although good scarcer model CS Relics, tend to be around the £1600 for the last 5 years or so (In the UK that is). A 70's model, if original, and nice will continue to appreciate over the coming years, but it may not be as nice to play during that time. As I always recommend, play as many as you can, and if its to be used as a player, pick the one that plays/sounds best to your taste/requirements, if you're looking for an investment guitar, then an original one, again, if nice and original, will be the best bet. Tread carefully with vintage guitars though, some are the best, and command top prices, some are far from it, especially mid to late 70's models. Remember a nice 70's bass will always be saleable, but if it plays crap, with bad joints, poor intonation etc, then it won't.

If i had £1000 to spend on a really good playing/sounding/quality Fender bass, that was to be a regular player, i think i'd go for a Roadworn Jazz, for around £500, and leave the other £500 in the bank, or even better, buy a roadworn P, [i]and[/i] a Roadworn jazz, the ones i've played have been every bit as good as the AV models, for half the price (Although you don't get a tweed case ) , and you dont need to worry about the odd knock and scratch. The AV models only retain value if they are Mint, which means you have to be careful with them, if you are also in it to maintain investment, for possible future sale, otherwise it doesnt matter of course.

Happy hunting, the hunt for the [i]right[/i] bass, and the eventual, successful catch, can be much fun.

Rick

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1316252824' post='1376246']
This is missing the point for me though, You have already bought into the scene without realising to some extent, Why do they make a AV62? (and endless Ri models) Because they are not readily available as such.

Why have EBMM released the ClassicRay? Because some people (more than there are pre EB's to go round) want the older neck feel, the chunky body, the muted bridge, the good old 2 band EQ etc and the look of an older bass without having to hunt for a good pre EB and not be scared to use it. If there was no genuine market for the old items the market would wind itself down and Fender would have a bash at making a totally new bass, The fact they have not and if anything them and other companies are making a tidy sum making retro models suggests a very different story.

If I had found my old Ray in a shop for £600 with no idea of what it was it would still be the best Ray I have ever played so thats a bonus. The general rule as I see it is this and most proper collectors will tell you to only buy a bass you like personally ( I think Rick will agree?) rather than just for the words in the advert or its history (unless its Elvis's or something). If some folk want to get caught up in the wording thats their problem but if they then sell it on for twice as much a year later to the next mug why not? Also these for many people are an indulgence my 2002 is quite capable of doing what the old one does really but have I asked any of you lot to pay for it, no. Can I afford it, yes. Anyone wanting to sell me a nice 77 MM bass in rootbeer brown for the right money can call it whatever they like for me
[/quote]

Exactly, you should only buy an instrument because you like it and want it for whatever reason. I collect 'vintage' basses, but i never enter the word 'vintage' into a search box, because it means nothing to me when looking for particular things. Other collectors are the same I'm sure. Its not about sellers trying to make something sound more desirable than it is, they are just describing an old guitar as 'vintage', which in this business, that is totally legitimate and acceptable, certainly to me.

The thread is about what we determine is the line (Not abouts whats better, or whether prices are reasonable), when tagging something as vintage, and from all the responses (Thanks everyone), it is now clear where that line is. Its 1973, or was it '83, actually it could be '92, OK, does it still have shrink wrap on the pickguard, and tissue paper still wrapped around all the strings?, No, then it must be 'vintage'!

[quote name='hubrad' post='1376008' date='Sep 16 2011, 10:15 PM']The headstocl pic looks to have MN7.... as the serial no.. can 14 years old be described as 'Vintage'? I think there's another discussion going on as we speak...[/quote]

Don't get me started again!!!

[quote name='LeftyBiskit' post='1376073' date='Sep 16 2011, 11:36 PM']Yeah I agree with you on that on the P sound
I've listening to a few roses tracks recently,namely
she bangs the drums,waterfall and I am the resurrection as we do these numbers..and the bass sounds very P like-in fact I use a Squier Precision and the sound/tone is spot on.[/quote]

Mani actually used a 4005 on those tracks, he didnt record with the 3000 until the Second Coming album.

[quote name='noelk27' post='1376067' date='Sep 16 2011, 11:30 PM']My cello was made circa 1870. Seems it might be vintage. Then again, it might not. It's certainly antique, though. So, all things considered, I've found this thread quite an amusing read.[/quote]

It's all relative isnt it, hence my remark earlier about this being basschat, and not harpsicordchat.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1376020' date='Sep 16 2011, 10:30 PM']Or they are selling a vintage instrument.........[/quote]

Exactly, things always, well, nearly always, sell for what the market says they are worth at that time. If a 'vintage' bass is worth £5k, and someone is selling it for £10k, by overmarketing the whole 'vintage' thing, it simply wont sell. Buyers who spend big money arent stupid, they generally know the market very well, and are shrewd with their purchases. Only when a partcularly scarce or unique item comes up for sale, and there are more than one serious person wanting it, does the price often get escalated, but generally this is not the case.

Those who say vintage is used as a false selling ploy to inflate prices are a bit misguided, I've never known this to be the case, or an instrument sold over its value because it said vintage in the description. People know what they are buying.

[quote name='Clarky' post='1375626' date='Sep 16 2011, 03:22 PM']Well, the Japanese owner actually replied to my message. Unfortunately though he is not selling[/quote]

Nooooooo...

Don't blame him, i wouldn't either.

It always surprises me how few there are around to be honest, when they were new they were a pretty cheap bass for a top brand, they should've sold in their bucketloads, they had short and long scale versions, different finishes, one and two pickup options, one of those quirky things i guess, i suppose the Rick faithful brigade, just didnt think it was a real Rick? Dunno, never played one though either, so perhaps theyre not great, i just want one to hang on the wall next to my pollocked 4005!

Thanks for chasing though, appreciate that!

[quote name='Monckyman' post='1375802' date='Sep 16 2011, 06:11 PM']This.
Vintage is used to denote age, not quality.[/quote]

Indeed.

[quote name='Paul S' post='1375714' date='Sep 16 2011, 04:46 PM']For me the word 'vintage' is purely a measure of age not quality. I'd always assumed over 20yrs made something vintage, but wouldn't argue with 25.[/quote]

Yes, i wouldn't associate it with quality at all, its definitely an age thing.

[quote name='Clarky' post='1375146' date='Sep 16 2011, 08:39 AM']I have fired off a message to the Japanese owner to see if he would consider selling - will letcha know if he gets back to me[/quote]

Nice one, thanks Clarky.

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1375631' date='Sep 16 2011, 03:26 PM']Damn.

There I was composing a theory which invalidated the wine / quality proposition; the crux being that overall quality has never been higher, therefore the Vintage period is now. Which - for the purposes of this thread - is plain silly.

And you've just convincingly knocked out the alternative approach.

How about an era-based system, like comic books. With a nod towards perceptions of quality, but also reflecting product development, corporate shifts and other indefinable stuff:

Pre 1950: Dark Age

1950-1960: Golden Age

1960-1970: Silver Age

1970-1990: Bronze Age

1990-Date: Modern Age[/quote]


Sounds reasonable to me.

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1375639' date='Sep 16 2011, 03:32 PM']No I believe that your reasoning is entirely sound. The best basses are being made right now. And next year's basses will be even better.

Old basses are just that. Old basses.[/quote]

Now there's a debate all on its own.

Sweeping generalisation statement that in my experience isnt true at all. Theres some great old and new basses, but to say the best basses are being made now is just not true. Same can be said for anything. Yes, technology has improvedm, but workmanship, care, that attention to detail just isnt there on mass produced things these days, especially with guitars. Vintage sound is something that many crave, and will pay handsomly for, others despise it. We're all different, and have different ears, hands, emotions, sensations etc.

You obviously havent played a good, 'old' bass, or maybe it just doesnt suit your playing style/requirement. I havent played a 'new' Fender that comes close to some of my vintage ones, regarding sound, comfort of playing etc, comparing eggs with eggs of course.

[quote name='LastBass' post='1375559' date='Sep 16 2011, 02:16 PM']Hooray - something to save up for! Paul Tutmarc right? Learnt something today, thanks.[/quote]

Tutmarc indeed, good work!

[quote name='Hutton' post='1375555' date='Sep 16 2011, 02:11 PM']Maybe it all depends on whether you view guitars/basses as a collector or as a player.[/quote]

Don't think thats relevant, we're discussing the instruments age, not what its being used for, its about the actual item itself.

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1375530' date='Sep 16 2011, 01:58 PM']What actual category of musical instruments are you talking about? All musical instruments? Electric instruments? Solid electric instruments? Just Fender bass guitars?

I think the actual category of instruments your talking about will have an impact on whether they can be classified as vintage or not.

The two things that vintage is most commonly associated with - cars and wine - it has completely different meanings. With wine it simply refers to the year so in this case 2010 is just as much vintage as 1977. With cars it refers to a fixed period from 1919 to 1930. So you can see neither of these definitions are really any use when describing musical instruments.

If we were talking about electrically amplified instruments (IMO the most useful category) then I would be reluctant to classify anything made since 1945 as vintage.[/quote]

I'm not talking about wine or cars, I'm talking about musical instruments, specifically, electric, solid body bass guitars, the ones that people [i]generally[/i] think about when discussing 'vintage' guitars, so we're talikng Fenders, Rickenbackers, Gibsons, Gretsch, Hofner, and if the vintage thing comes more recent, as its being suggested, then all the other manufacturers will come on line. Its not an exact science is it, it's just a general feeling for what we consider vintage, nothing to over analyze.

This is basschat afterall, if it was Harpsicordchat, then I'm sure 'vintage' would mean a different era entirely. Sorry for not being more specific in the opening thread, didnt feel it was neccessary.

[quote name='LastBass' post='1375508' date='Sep 16 2011, 01:43 PM']From Doctor J - "Personally, I think there might be a link to the age of the buyer, where having disposable income and a large dose of nostalgia makes owning an instrument older than you are a cool thing."

Good point Dr J. Trouble is, apart from presumably a few pre-production Precisions that my disposable pension won't quite stretch to anyway, there are no bass guitars older than me![/quote]

1937, surely this qualifies???

[attachment=89589:oldest_bass.jpg]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1375501' date='Sep 16 2011, 01:41 PM']Our neighbours have just come back after 4 years working in Canada. I was convinced that they'd only gone at the start of last year!!![/quote]

Exactly, not just me then....thank God!!

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1375497' date='Sep 16 2011, 01:39 PM']Looking at your sig, if you don't know then we're fooked. [/quote]




I know what [i]I [/i]define it as, which in Fender's case (Thats all i deal with generally), it has always been, and will always be pre-CBS. But recently the 70's models are called this, hence putting it out there.

I think the upshot is, I'm getting old, and even my JV could well be classed as a vintage bass.

[quote name='Clarky' post='1375448' date='Sep 16 2011, 01:13 PM']I don't think the OP was really addressing whether a 'vintage' instrument is better or worse - there have been countless threads about this and analogies between basses and other collectable items (eg, many - including me - would love an old '50s/60s sports car but it would undoubtedly be vastly inferior performance-, comfort- and economy-wise to a modern sports car costing a great deal less)[/quote]

Indeed, but would said car be classed as a 'vintage' one?

Exactly right, this has nothing to do with good/bad/better/worse, its just about about age/era.

[quote name='chris_b' post='1375455' date='Sep 16 2011, 01:19 PM']That's old age creeping up on you!!

90's instruments will be considered vintage some day!![/quote]

I think you're right, as I eluded to in the original post.

At work, I'm mentoring a graduate, and he filled in a form for me recently, and he stated his date of birth as 1988, i gave it back and asked him to correct it, to which he looked at me blankly, and somewhat confused, i then 'did the math', and realsied that i was in fact working with someone who was actually born in 1988, which to me, seems like he should be about 3 years old!!! Time moves fast, and as such, the whole 'vintage' thing does too. Like i said, 'vintage' is more relevant to the age of the person, not the instrument.

I'll get my coat.......by which i obviously mean housecoat, pipe and slippers. Anyway, I've just had lunch, so I'm off for a nap.

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1375445' date='Sep 16 2011, 01:09 PM']But you need to believe this given the instruments that you collect and sell.[/quote]


The quote you referred to is a fact, not what i beleive in. I don't know what criteria is needed to label an instrument 'vintage' anymore, hence the thread.