Kiwi

a bassline didn't want me to become a bassist, it was a second choice after I had to give up drums for medical reasons. First complete top 40 bass line I ever learned was New Years Day by U2 coz we had a geek American guitarist at high school whose father lectured at the nearby uni and he wanted someone to play bass while he did The Edge impressions over the top.

Some good stuff going on here. It's great that people are sharing their views and exploring some ideas together.

Hi Gary, welcome

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='94633' date='Nov 26 2007, 04:55 PM']I understand that Keith Jarrett thinks any music over and above that of the solo performer will inevitably require compromise. I guess its is true in a way but I see music as a communal activity because, even if you are a solo performer, the moment the music is out there as sound, its beauty is in the ear of the beholder. There are now two people involved so the debate begins anew.[/quote] That's the point I was trying to make. Any artist who wants to be appreciated enters into a form of consensus [u]if they care[/u] about getting recognition. Where that point of balance between their vision and their tolerance of compromise is achieved is another question, however. Some artists don't need to compromise their vision and get recognised anyway, such as Banksy. But he must care about recognition or he wouldn't feel like putting his works in high profile locations. [quote name='bilbo230763' post='94633' date='Nov 26 2007, 04:55 PM']I think the role of the innovator is a lot easier to take a perspective on with hindsight. Remember Stanley Jordan - whatever happened to him? For every innovator who succeeds in moving the art form forward, there are 1,000s taking it up all sorts of blind alleys. Who is to say who is right, other than a concensus? I just think that the debate is more important than the outcome![/quote] This is interesting, because you're describing a process of natural selection to a certain degree. Survival of the fittest. But its also possible for musical performers to come back from the dead, The Police could be a good example of that although whether their music is still innovative is another question.

I like it, there's an elegant simplicity to it and there's no question about the quality of the materials used. The price is enough to make me break out in a sweat though. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night with all that dosh wrapped up in one instrument.

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='94607' date='Nov 26 2007, 04:13 PM']Absolutely true, but the context in question is that of a discussion about ERBs - our objectives are simply to enhance our music (I think?),[/quote] We're taking a circuitous route around to the point I wanted to make which was, there's almost always something of mutual interest between two 'interest groups'. Trick is to find out what that is and build emphasis and agreement around it. Its classic negotiation, very typical of the type employed in the Northern Ireland Peace Talks for example. [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='94607' date='Nov 26 2007, 04:13 PM']quality is completely subjective and CAN'T be defined properly,[/quote] Thats one of the advantages of achieving consensus. A team can all agree what is acceptable quality given that they all want to achieve the end result. The other advantage is spreading and managing risk. If a [u]musician/song writer[/u] doesn't want to reach a consensus within a [u]production[/u] team (for example because they believe the process will lead to unacceptable [u]creative [/u]compromise) then they have the option of leaving the team, of course. But if they can't find another team to work with, they can also take on more responsibility for not only creating but also delivering everything they want to see. However even if an artistic loner has the help of people to achieve their creative vision, that's an example of consensus, its just that the balance is very much in favour of the artist - Prince would be a classic example of this. Prince also takes on more responsibility and risk if things fail but he seems quite comfortable with that approach knowing that he has the fan base he has I guess. It might be that ERB'ers also see themselves as innovators, trail blazing their own paths but thats no reason for any individual to be intolerant of those who choose a more traditional route. In fact, if anything I think an innovative ERBer still depends on traditional forms of playing to help them define who they are as players. [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='94607' date='Nov 26 2007, 04:13 PM']cost is virtually nothing, as we are all willing to keep contributing to the discussion and just need to get past any unnecessary aggro, and time is pretty much infinite (I hope there's no time limit for basschat anyway!) - whilst this may not be the most wonderful example of discussion on this overall rather brilliant website, I see no reason it should end, whilst people still have opinions to express... unfortunately, it seems that we've fallen into a trap of discussing the discussion itself, which is pretty much pointless... with that in mind, I probably won't say anything more about it[/quote] OK, I think you might have misunderstood me a little there but its not important. I have a soft spot for more circuitous routes of discussion because they're a lot more interesting than people simply stating their opinion and leaving, so to speak.

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='94544' date='Nov 26 2007, 01:57 PM']Buttt even after reaching a consensus, that doesn't mean you've achieved perfection...[/quote] Often there's a logrithmic curve of effort in relation to how close to perfection you can get. Its up to an individual to decide how much effort they want to and how far they will get for that effort. A bit like increases in horsepower vs improved acceleration times in cars for example, the price of basses in relation to increases in quality as they get more expensive. [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='94544' date='Nov 26 2007, 01:57 PM']consensus doesn't usually refer to universal consensus; there'll always be someone who's not 100% happy with your result and there'll always be a way of improving what you've done - so never settle for anything, even if it's a consensus [/quote] There's also a difference between consensus and complete satisfaction. Consensus is best used within the context of a team where no single individual can achieve an objective without the help of others. Usually a team is needed and each person in that team has a clearly defined role and area of expertise. It often happens that there are conflicts between one area of expertise and another. Consensus is the process by which an [i]acceptable[/i] balance can be achieved between two opposing constraints. Consensus does produce things that are often imperfect but this is often the reality of working in an imperfect world. It surely depends on your terms of reference too? If you are just making something for yourself then you can make it as perfect as you like and be happy because you are setting the standards by which success is judged. You can even come back to it and change it if your feeling of what perfection is changes. A few things need to be in place for consensus to work properly: 1) A direction, or agreed idea of what you want to achieve which everyone has signed up to. (Objectives/benefits) 2) An agreement on how you will judge when what you are doing has been successful. (Quality) 3) How much effort you are all prepared to put in, to achieve the success you want. (cost) 4) By which time you expect to see results achieved (time - helps monitor progress) Often compromise happens because 2) hasn't been defined properly. Someone needs to be responsible for making sure that second best isn't being settled for when there's no good reason to accept it. It can also take an extraordinarily long time for the process to have a positive effect if the process is particularly complicated. It may require (like any negotiation process) both parties to burrow down into levels of detail not anticipated before discussions in order to resolve where conflicts lie and where progress towards reaching agreement can be made. A poor 'facilitator' can forget to emphasise 1) at key decision making points in the process which results in 'scope creep' or a change in the goals. For a solo recording artist, it may not be necessary to reach consensus on anything, up until they get to the delivery stage which is where aspirations meet real world limitations (for example, its too expensive to produce that surround sound DVD audio recording, or the technology isn't easily available.) Thats why I suggested it depends on context.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='94528' date='Nov 26 2007, 01:38 PM']Just a little point to consider. Progress is never achieved by people who agree - only by people who argue, discuss and debate. If everyone agreed, there would be no need to innovate. Don't ever settle for concensus, for the middle ground.[/quote] In my experience consensus isn't compromise and doesn't necessarily represent the middle ground. Or else all popular bands would be playing sh*t music by the same definition and the public (to take the definition one step further) would also be happy listening to sh*t music. Consensus represents an area where opinions and values converge, it only represents compromise when the [i]process of achieving [/i]consensus is compromised.

Anything by the Flight of the Conchords. I think they're great... ...but there again I would. Fanfare of the Common Man - Aaron Copeland. About as close to pure musical perfection as I've ever encountered. Takes me on a rollercoaster ride into the stratosphere and then lands me gently on the ground at teh end, uplifted and satisfied. +1 Eva Cassidy, Somewhere Over the Rainbow. +1 Pat Methenys, A Map Of The World [url="http://www.caraluft.com"]Cara Luft[/url] is revitalising Canadian folk music with bassist Hugh MacMillan from Spirit of The West. Fast forward to 2:10 if you don't fancy hearing the religious stuff like me. Cara and Hugh, are both good friends of mine and I have her CD on near permanent play in my car. It's great driving music! The second track in at 3:12 is my favourite tune, an old Led Zep number which Cara plays because she's a rock chick at heart . The [url="http://cdbaby.com/mp3lofi/caraluft-04.m3u"]CD track [/url]has more percussion on the CD than live and the pounding groove along with the time signature is really catchy.

We generally don't travel more than 2 hours although we will travel further if the client is prepared to pay for B&B style accommodation.

[quote name='Steve Lawson' post='94239' date='Nov 25 2007, 07:00 PM']Those of you who've been dissing ERB will probably grow out of that when somebody makes some music using one that really connects with you, and those of you vigorously defending ERBs will probably do so with less ferocity when you've had a few more of your own prejudices exposed, and perhaps have a few more gigs to get ready for... It's all good, we're all friends and there's room in the bass-pool for all of us to do our thing. We just need to keep some perspective, and keep the goal as being the music. Great music is great music whether it's played on bass, banjo or accordian... with that, I'm going to go and start another thread to help focus our minds in that direction...[/quote] Blimey, welcome back Mr Lawson. S'been a while innit? I think the ERB vs 4 strings thing is one of those situations that can feed on itself VERY easily and over what? An few extra strings? ERB players can sometimes come across to more traditional players as a bit pretentious when this may not actually be the case. On the other hand, 4 string players may be seen by ERB'ers as being unnecessarily conservative, which may not be the case. All it takes is one side to get defensive and lash out and it sets the other on a path to retaliation. As someone who plays both, I think both sides need to get a bit of altitude on the situation. This whole exchange is PRECISELY the reason why I didn't think creating an ERB forum would be a good idea. I like playing 4 strings because I can get so many well known sounds which is just perfect for covers. However there are many occasions when I need extra range and a trad bass isn't going to do it. They're tools for goodness sakes, seeing people fall out over an issue as inconsequential as this is like watching people argue over whether a hammer is better than a screwdriver and whether it requires more/less technique to use. Be happy people, c'mon there are far more deserving things to argue about. Lets see some impressive 8,9,10 string playing and have a debate about whether the instrument is being taken forward musically or not. Or alternatively, whether Steve Lawson would look better if he shaved his head.

lol For a moment there I did take you seriously. I'm no language expert but I'd imagine that textspeak requires a fairly high level of skill in order to translate one form into the other on the fly. In any case, if the guy bugs you then use the ignore function. He'll have to learn to use a spell checker if he wants to be taken seriously.

I think the benefit of doubt needs to be given until proven otherwise. Besides which we have at least one other member who is dyslexic that I know of and we should be tolerant. If you don't like reading the posts its possible to use the forums ignore function. Feel free to PM me if you need some help on how to find it. Can we get this thread back on topic please?

and crutons?

Yeah this is going to be another interesting test of Jon's skills. Probably THE build diary to watch.

I believe Rich made one for himself a while back.

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='93775' date='Nov 24 2007, 02:57 PM'][/quote] how much for shipping?

[quote name='Beedster' post='93759' date='Nov 24 2007, 02:13 PM']PS mods, do not let the rabbit and the spider go to the same person [/quote] LOL

[quote name='stingrayfan' post='93663' date='Nov 24 2007, 09:42 AM']Nah.. this rabbit's all white.[/quote] LMAO

or corn?

[quote name='Pbassred' post='92989' date='Nov 22 2007, 08:50 PM']I have a problem with singers who write their own glowing prase in the 3rd person.[/quote] I can't see anything wrong with that, it sends out the right kind of message. DON'T AUDITION!!!

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='93588' date='Nov 24 2007, 12:00 AM']An offer you cant refuse. Say yes or you will wake up with a horse head in your bed.[/quote] Horses head?! Darling, that is SO retro. We like to do it with a little more style these days - say a blue budgie on a black napkin and a sprig of mint? And a rentacrowd with backwards haircuts and skinny jeans to applaud WILDLY and say we all look gorgeous? We are SO worth it, let me call my people now and we'll set it up for 3am next Tuesday, yah?

[quote name='WalMan' post='93439' date='Nov 23 2007, 05:48 PM']Gigging tonight, thankfully just down the road at [url="http://www.myspace.com/thecrownlittlehampton"]The Crown[/url] but feeling guilty as I have been off work for the last couple of days (well logged in rather half heartedly from home) with man-flu. Think I may pass on the backing vox tonight as it will be even more like a strangled crow than ever. Hey ho. Works work, but a gigs a gig after all[/quote] Break a leg!!!! I hope your work don't hear about it though, like the situation with RoadDog.

[quote name='Grand Puba' post='93230' date='Nov 23 2007, 11:01 AM']So who is the best bass dealer in London, for a novice just starting out.[/quote] Hey GP, if you happen to be popping into Sound Control on a weekday lunchtime or after work, drop me a PM. I work just down the road in High Holborn and its not too much hassle to help out.

[quote name='TheBrokenDoor' post='92665' date='Nov 22 2007, 12:21 PM']Inevitably, what I always do is ask myself "Do I need to play this note?" about every single note I want to play. If the answer is 'no' or i'm unsure, I don't play it. I'm hired because I don't detract from what they already have: a song. I offer simplicity and a basic fattening-up of the sound they have.[/quote] Thing that is really the challenge for me is timing, and I'm not talking about keeping up with the drummer. Its about choosing [b]when[/b] to play the right note. Jamerson, Larry Graham and Bernard Edwards are masters at this. It does my head in because there's no easy way to understand why they play what they played when they played it and yet Jamersons stuff does my head in when he deliberately chooses to play a note way off the beat. IT WORKS so beautifully - check out the phrasing he plays under the hook in 'Can't Hurry Love'. 'Reflections' by the Supremes or 'Heard It Through The Grapevine' by Marvin Gaye are also superb examples of how he uses space to twist the groove beyond what mere notes are capable of doing. Jamerson is one of those players where I have to turn my 'what do I play' approach on its head, into 'what do I have to leave out'?