drTStingray

[size=5][sub]At this time, bass playing had been thoroughly influenced by the likes of Pino, Jaco, Louis Johnson, Nate Watts, Norman Watt-Roy, Mark King - so things had become technical - look at Nick Beggs - Kajagoogoo (top 10 single etc).[/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]So basses of the era - Musicman Stingray, Sabre or Cutlass.[/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]Ibanez Musician; [/sub][/size][size=5][sub]Steinberger; [/sub][/size][size=5][sub]Wal[/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]All choice basses of the time. Alembic if you could afford one (few people could); Jaydee if you couldn't.[/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]Fenders were off the radar for many serious players at this time as seriously out of date and unhip, but found in the hands of punk rockers etc.[/sub][/size]

THere's some good advice in this thread - however here's my take on it. I owned a pre EB Ray from about 1980 onwards, and currently only have Ernie Ball basses. The 3 EQ can sound almost identical to a 2 band EQ bass - the key difference is that the mid range knob, at centre detent, give the bass more mid range than a 2 EQ has with the bass and treble boosted about 80% (which seems to be the way many people play them). They can sound exactly like Bernard Edwards (but of course you need to be able to play in his style, which is very specific). The mid range control can help you out in some mixes, particularly if you don't want to play too hard - so basically the 3 EQ has a little more versatility. The 2 band has more bass and treble boost (IMO), however when dimed, you do lose mid range in the sound - the mid range comes back as you back off the tone controls. The Ray 133 is 2 band NOS in specific colours (red, white or blue??), without hard shell case. You may well find 3EQ basses around as NOS which are discounted - in fact I know of a shop with a 3EQ HS pick up model in natural with a maple board which I was offered a discount from the already discounted price - PM me if you want to know where it is. You should find the Stingray in either 2 or 3 EQ form a natural slap machine (amongst other attributes) - mine still bring a smile to my face a full 32 years after the first time I played a slap pattern in a gig with one - it is an awesome sound. Best of luck with getting one. You may wish to consider buying used - plenty of mint or near 3 EQ basses come on the market (Ebay for example) and 2 EQ ones.

[quote name='tedgilley' timestamp='1355528224' post='1899753'] Amazingly melodic player, up against a wall of horns. Never better. [/quote] Did you mean Nick Beggs of Kajagoogoo??

A large percentage of how a bass sounds is down to the user - Stingrays are capable of extremely smooth and subtle delivery, as evidenced by the multitude of professional users over the years. The fact the bass can produce an iconic and very aggressive sound produced by the likes of Flea and Tim Commerford tends to overshadow its ability to produce a very smooth bass sound. As for the neck query, I have 5 of these basses - and don't have the problem - they are all gigged and they barely go out of tune from oneto the next. Yes if you have v low action you may need to tweak the truss rod at the start of summer and winter but that is because the materials used cannot defy the laws of physics - however thanks to EBMM, the truss rod adjuster is about the easiest and most effective on the market. The size of frets may also have a bearing on the ability to get very very low action - no matter what reinforcement is used, I don't see how manufacturers can produce necks made from wood which defy the laws of physics - basically if your bass is exposed to temperature range of 40 - 50 degrees C, and humidity ranging from 10 to 90% (all of which occurs over a year in this country), wood will react at the extremes - and your action may need adjusting (especially if it's already perilously low). I'm not fussed about my Stingray 5 natural finish being available as an SBMM Ray 35 - indeed someone once asked me whether mine was a Ray 35 - I said no and pointed to the headstock - the guy thought my bass looked and sounded great anyway! It's no different from people with Fender instruments - last night I was at a jam session and a guy turned up with a Telecaster thinline in natural, with a worn maple neck and TV logos. I was talking to the guy next to me who's something of a Fender buff and he said to me that's not original because the tuners are Kluson and thus predate the model. He went and asked the guy who confirmed it was a Japanese re-issue about 10 yrs old - but who cares, really??? It looked very pretty indeed. The guy who has an original will no doubt think he's got the best guitar in the world (for him) as does the guy with the Jap re-issue - there are other compromises, eg pick ups, in the re-issue, which sets the real thing apart also.

[quote name='lownote12' timestamp='1355672887' post='1901169'] The secret of a good 5 string lies in having the slightly longer 35" scale the low B string needs [/quote] I would respectfully disagree that you need a 35" scale for a good B string - both My Bongo 5 and Stingray 5s have killer B string sounds and are 34". There are others as well. My take on this subject is you should get a 4 string to learn on. For your budget you may get a used Mexican Fender Precision and a used Ashdown 300 watt MAG combo. This will allow you to gig if you want to later - plus the resale if you find it's not for you will be OK. Should you want more tone options (not usually something a beginner thinks a lot about) you could go for a used Mexican Jazz bass or a Sterling by Musicman Sub bass (you will probaly be able to learn Flea and early Tim Commerford RATM lines and get a passable rendition of their sound and certainly a good slap sound with the SBMM). You could opt for a Squire or a SBMM Sub new if you didn't want to buy used but remember you will lose money on resale on anything you buy new - many people, however, prefer a shiny new bass if they can afford one. On the amp front you could just go for a small combo to use at home and learn on, but as soon as you want to join a band you'll need something more powerful (probably 300 watts in my view). You could go to a shop and get the salesman to demo the ones your interested, or if you know someone who can play reasonably well, take them and ask them to do it - try them yourself for feel etc, and pick what you like the best. Best of luck.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1355269562' post='1896313'] rickenbacker havn't yet. [/quote] Indeed not - they've taken a different route - trying to make it difficult for people to trade copies. What EBMM did was to say if we don't fill the space (for a cheaper version) someone else will - hence the Sub SBMM (which competes with the Vintage Stingray copy etc). My take on this is that people who start off with the cheap version may well lust after the real thing in due course. I was inwardly chuckling earlier at a very lengthy Talkbass thread which was trying to argue a Squire xyz bass is better than the Fender version of the same bass - I thought - yes you may believe that but I'm betting a good number of people who buy the Squire will at some stage end up with a Fender. My original take on this thread was it's just a facet of the current market - the price of basses can go up or down, as they say! A good example of fluctuation of new prices - I got my SR5 in 2003 with a hard case for £995 (yes really - brand new - in stock for two months from DOB) - six months later they were around £1250+ and didn't come with a hard case, only a gig bag - the reason - huge fluctuation in exchange rate. Later the rate changed and the prices altered yet again. Slightly off topic - but have any of you guys with Stingrays recorded with one with the mutes wound on? I did a couple of weeks ago (2 band Classic) and am totally amazed at the sound - real thump (a la P bass) but with warmth and a smoothness I've never heard before. So much so I've started using them live as well and they have a great effect there as well.

It's a sign of the economy - you only have to look at the silly prices people are bidding on Fenders - eg 17 bids on a Road Worn Jazz, and it's got to £175. 3 bids on an American standard Jazz - and it's reached £56. Loads of new Custom Shop stuff at half price. The market simply goes up and down.

The other thing to remember is that the market is not made up generally of people who are enthusiastic enough to post on a forum like this. Manufacturers forums tend to attract enthusiasts. However there is a large bulk of players who just own one bass - probably starting with an entry level copy and possibly aspiring to something better. Many never get past the next one above budget level (eg mexican Fender or SBMM). This large chunk of people iswhat sells - there is only a certain proportion of players who are serious enough to want to invest in a bass over, say £1000 - and then only a proportion of those who catch the GAS bug and end up with 20 Musicman basses or Fenders etc (there's a guy on the Musicman forum with over 250). Although all of the market is no doubt being squeezed, I think it likely that the upper end is taking the biggest hit in the current economic climate. Prices do fluctuate, but if £750 is about the long term average rate for a used Ray, seeing basses sold at £600, whilst others go for £900, just demonstrates statistical fluctuation around an average. Christmas does have an affect - on prices for a whole range of goods. So how are Fender prices holding up?? I mentioned the giveaway Custom Shop prices, I believe already. I have seen standard mexican Fenders for £200 ish on Ebay, whereas they are £500 odd new. I suspect that across the whole range of makes, prices are currently at a low level.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1354714207' post='1889449'] I've seen loads of EBMM Musiman basses with massive discounts in Guitar Centre in recent years , particulaly the Special Editions / Annivesary models[/quote] Yes, me too - the point I was making relates to the used market where at least some of them (if not most of them) command a higher price. On those being sold off cheap, I think it depends on the model - the recent PDN run (mahogany/birds eye roasted maple necks etc) seems to have been over-subscribed, as were some of the other ones. But this is true of many manufacturers. You are right regarding Guitar Centre and sheer volume - many manufacturers have so much tied in with them there would likely be a problem if ever they went bust.

Refinishing it and modifying it in a big way (eg putting an extra J pick up on a P) seem to have the most detrimental affect on value of name brand instruments. Just look at the prices on any vintage guitar site and you can see by how much. The modification thing appears to be confined largely to Fender instruments, and lower priced copies of mainstream basses. Not sure why that would be other than availability of after-market parts, or a belief that they can be improved. You don't hear of many people modifying Alembics, Musicman, Sadowsky, Warwick, Gibson etc etc, and if they do they usually keep the bits to enable reversion to original spec. Perhaps the people buying them think there's less to be gained by 'upgrading' them.

Do you think they might, further down the line, produce some Sabres in more standard colours like natural? You would think that might be a logical follow up, and would reflect what happened with the Classic Rays. My experience of the LE models is they do actually fetch more than the comparable regular model, used. I've been lusting after a 30th Anni Stingray but they are significantly more than a regular used Ray. The 20th Anniversary even more than that.

A factor of the economy I guess - I read about NOS Fender Custom Shop basses being sold at Guitar Centre for less than half price, along with other bargains. This affects all musical instruments. On the run up to Christmas, there are possibly more people wanting to sell secondhand stuff quickly to free up funds. The prices will fluctuate I guess as a result. My son was after a tweed case for his Mexican Telecaster - found a Mexican Strat complete with a tweed case on Ebay for £250 - buying it, keeping the case and selling the Strat on in a gig bag would have been a superb deal - but just goes to show what's out there. 'Back in the day' I tried to sell an Acoustic 371 set up, and eventually had to accept a ridiculously low price for it - OK it was a long time ago and pre Ebay but still galling - how I wish I still had it. The one thing I had people falling over to buy was my pre-EB Stingray at the time, and I guess the same would be true now.

You may not be aware they also make some lines WITH a lacquered neck. So if they wanted to, they could put all the necks through that process. A lot of people like the oil and wax finished necks for playability - yeah some people don't but they can choose another type..

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1354540532' post='1887087'] How can using an oil finish instead of a sprayed lacquer finish NOT save money? A minimum wage muppet with an oily rag compared to somebody with the necessary spraying skills is going to be cheaper, and is also going to increase the number of basses produced as they don't have to wait for multiple lacquer coats to dry & be buffed. With the amount of guitars & basses they produce that is going to save an enormous amount of money over time on both materials & labour costs, and whatever marketing crap they spout to justify using oil finishes instead of lacquer their prime reason for doing that would be to maximise profits. [/quote] Well except that the necks are all hand finished by skilled labour anyway. And you or I don't have access to the info. I personally think it would be very marginal if anything at all. So I'm afraid your assertion is likely to be completely wrong. I'm willing to accept you don't like these basses - not sure why you presume that the manufacturer is out to sting everyone who does. In fact, past history suggests that of all the manufacturers, they're the least likely to do so, simply because they're run by businessmen/industrialists who are also enthusiasts.

If you buy secondhand, they started in 1987 and up to about 1992 had alnico pick up poles. From about 92 to 07 ceramic, and as said above, up to date with alnico. The late 80s/early 90s basses often have birds eye maple necks and look very cool indeed. If you buy a bass from the 80s/90s, solid colours and trans blueburst may well have a poplar body, other trans colours (except red) an ash body, trans red an alder body. All sound quite similar but there are differences. There is another model which you may find new in the shops, the Stingray Classic 5 string. The neck is similar to a regular MM 5 string except they have highly figured wood with a lacquered finish. These have 2 band EQs (as did the original USA made Sub), but in all other respects are a premium range bass (all other MM 5 strings have 3 band with a mid range control). A single pick up MM 5 string with 3 band EQ will have a selector switch enabling choice between series and parallel, plus a single coil setting. Multipick up basses have a selector switch to select combinations of coils in operation. You can see the specs and colours for the current basses on the Musicman web site, and the difference in appearence. You could also look out Ed Friedland's demos on You Tube - some of these basses or the four string equivalents are featured. Best of luck with finding one. These are very solid basses and not much generally goes wrong with them.

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1354495691' post='1886756'] I've played more than enough EBMM basses to know I don't like them thanks, and I know that I'm not going to get on with any bass that has an oil finished neck - I can't stand them. [/quote] The fact you don't like them is a perfectly valid point of view, but fundamentally different from saying they're made without neck finish to save money, as you did originally. I think the only way anyone is going to be able to choose between maple and rosewood is to try them - in my experience they sound a little different (yes, I know the bridge may be set slightly different and the body wood may be marginally different etc etc etc etc) but every rosewood boarded bass I've ever played has, to my ears, for instance, a less searing slap sound. As I say - try them - and also decide which one looks better to you. A lot depends, IMO on the body colour as to which fretboard looks best - but it's all down to personal preference really - there's no right or wrong.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1354454367' post='1886070'] EBMM stands for Ernie Ball Music Man . In reality it stands for this guy because , trust me , when it comes to EBMM , what he says goes . [/quote] You'd expect a CEO to have some control over his company, but it is said that the Classic series of basses were not the brainchild of Sterling Ball, but his son Scott Ball (in fact it was Sterling Ball who said it). He's much misunderstood - who else runs threads on each new bass model they develop from ground up, taking feedback on the way? Quite a lot of what came out with the Classics seemed to result from forum interraction (eg figured necks; chrome battery cover and more) - along with the Reflex and other instruments. Who's the CEO of Fender? Hmmm a bunch of venture capitalists own it and I've never heard of anyone involved with it (other than the names of one or two people in its Custom Shop). Sterling Ball is a bass player and enthusiast (but has also banned one or two people who were (arguably) behaving like .......... aherm............twats on his company's forum - they appear in other places these days!) - I know who I'd trust more to produce musical instruments, however. [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1354456074' post='1886093'] Fixed. [/quote] Rhys you really should go and try some more basses out - I have four variants of neck material on my Musicman basses - rosewood with gunstock oil finished neck; pau ferro with lacquered neck; maple with gunstock oil finished neck; maple with fully laquered neck and board. They do sound different, but especially the slap tone. The gun stock oil finish produces the fastest and easiest playing neck IMO - you get used to the lacquered necks but the gunstock ones just feel silky smooth to play. The lack of varnish produces a player's bass. The necks are all hand finished anyway (as are Fender Custom Shop). Back to the OP - I'm not sure what difference you'll get between a P with a maple or a P with a rosewood board, other than the obvious aesthetic differences - I would just say that of all the people playing 70s R and B on these basses I have seen, most have used maple boards - I preume they may have a little more focus and treble. However, a passive P bass being what it is, I'm not sure how much audible difference this will really make - possibly marginal.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1354404066' post='1885713'] Black blocks on a maple board look cheap and common to me now. Has to be rosewood with white pearl blocks. Much classier. [/quote] A couple of weeks ago I'd have agreed with you - never liked black blocks and binding and preferred the white with silver blocks on a maple Jazz as well (as Marcus Miller Jazz) - that was until someone showed a picture on here of a 70s Jazz bass in black with maple board, black blocks and binding - a bass of total beauty. I now get it totally (and I didn't used to like black basses either). BTW I think the maple v rosewood board makes a significant difference on a Musicman - especially a maple with lacquered neck.

[quote name='andydye' timestamp='1353714980' post='1877878'] Date stamp should be on the inside of the neck pocket, that's where it is on mine... [/quote] Even on a 59 year old?? BTW I say he's at least 62!

I have a Stingray Classic which has a similar fretboard radius to what you describe. I find it excellent - I only notice the difference when going back to playing a standard SR4 (although it only takes a minute or two to become accustomed again). I have always found more of an issue, however, with the width of the fretboard of a 'vintage' (say 60s) P bass - they are slightly wider than the modern ones and my short fingers don't like them.

I bought a Markbass rig off you in the last year. However when I visited the lack of Warwicks (nil) and also Musicman (I think there was a Ray, a Ray 5 and a couple of SBMM) basses on display was alarming - far too many Fenders I'm afraid - nice as they are it's a bit of a turn off for a casual visit - just my opinion!!

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1353115290' post='1871891'] Only cheaper than a new classic and only when they come available anywhere other than Andybaxters, £1900 minimum for most of his now, if they are the prices he is getting for them then the pre EB is on the move upwards, resales of classics don't look that strong either even as new condition classic 5's are dropping below £1300 which is a massive saving on list price! I still want one though [/quote] They've often been around the price of a new Stingray in the past but there seems to be a lot of discounting going on in America to try and shift new/NOS basses - did you see the thread on TB about the Custom Shop Fender sold by GC for $1500? Plus GC made a cock up on the prices of their MM basses recently and sold some for very discounted prices - if these appear on Ebay, they might end up for sale here for the prices you mention. You should try a Classic Ray - a key thing about them is the fretboard radius (7.5 in) - my Classic feels quite different from my other 4 string Rays for this reason.

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1353110074' post='1871848'] No.8 was, apparently, given as a gift to someone by Eric Clapton and is now in Japan. [/quote] Carl Raddle apparently (per Musicman.Org website) who was Eric Clapton's bass player through the 70s at least. Interesting thing is that if you watch footage of the era (and there was some recently on the BBC4 programme, Guitarists at the BBC) not only is Carl Raddle playing a Ray (possibly #8) but the entire back line is Musicman amps and the rythmn guitarist is playing a Stingray guitar as well!! So possibly read for Eric Clapton presenting the bass to him that the whole band was endorsed so was presented with the equipment. I have a DVD of the Average White Band playing at the Montreux Festival in 1977 and Alan Gorrie is playing what looks like an X series Stingray bass (natural, white pick up cover, black pick guard) whilst Hamish Stewart plays a sunburst one with white pickguard (mostly with a pick as opposed to Gorrie's fingerstyle and occassional slap style). They were still using Stingrays when I saw then in 79/80. The think that stands out for me on these performances is the phenominal bass sound (in the case of AWB they are using Acoustic back line for the basses).

I don't generally like black basses but that is gorgeous - totally early 70s vibe!

That's v nice but I don't like black basses. There's a dilemma with vintage basses for me - I can see the point of the first production Stingray (another current thread) being this expensive as it's really a museum piece and v interesting (to me at least) with a famous ex owner - but this is a pretty anonymous Fender Jazz that hasn't been played much - OK 45 + years old but is it REALLY worth that much? If a colour came up that I really like I might be more tempted.