drTStingray

Well not quite................ No one has answered my question on which is (obviously opinion but nevertheless valued), which is the most sought after custom colour. FWIW my favourites are fiesta red, sonic blue and surf green. And secondly........... [quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1348440165' post='1813758'] - how about 80s and onwards Musicman basses - clearly improvements over their predecessors, with similar reputation for sound, but great reputation for quality, fit and finish. These are the basses I use through choice and probably will retain all the ones I have, and hopefully will be with me or in my family when they are well over 30 yrs old. Late 80s/early 90s Musicmans often have stunning figured maple necks also. [/quote] Any vintage fans/experts willing to give a view. Many thanks for everyone's help.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1348408032' post='1813214'] As I promised yesterday, here are a few of quick snaps of my Reflex: The big problem with trying to photograph this bass is that it's all but impossible to show the beautiful deep gloss finish on the white. This video fom the ubiquitous Keko , who I'm sure you are familiar with from the EBMM forum , gives a much better impression of how this bass really looks and some indication of just how epic it sounds : On the subject of the aforementioned Keko, I really think EBMM should give him a free bass for all the publicity and exposure he has given this bass on the internet. [/quote] That's a stunning bass - v nice indeed. Keko wants a Bongo.........but is holding out for a 10th Anniversary one (2013 - if they make one) [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1348428138' post='1813537'] I'm seriously tempted to pick up a Bongo as well as my other Bongo order before the price rise hits and they are £1800+ [/quote] How about a PDN 2012 Bongo via an American dealer??

Some interesting stuff in here. You talk about 80s Fenders - how about 80s and onwards Musicman basses - clearly improvements over their predecessors, with similar reputation for sound, but great reputation for quality, fit and finish. These are the basses I use through choice and probably will retain all the ones I have, and hopefully will be with me or in my family when they are well over 30 yrs old. Late 80s/early 90s Musicmans often have stunning figured maple necks also. Back to the original topic, I do take issue that Fenders were the best basses around in the early/mid 60s - there were others and a couple of my favourite players played EB3s to great effect. The Fender sound fits many genres very well - but not all. However, there is something beautiful and 'of the time' about these late 50s/early 60s Fenders - when you stray away from the standard sunburst and blond which are great enough, the custom colours are stunning in some cases (my own opinion). I would love to have one of these at some stage and thank everyone contributing advice to my original questions. As for JVs, CIJs, MIJs - I have a vague idea what you're talking about but have little or no interest in these. I'm much of the 'if I want a Fender for everyday use I'll buy a new one' school of thought. And as I've said, I have no wish to currently (though I've played quite a few owned by others or in shops). I have played a 59 P bass in red (dakota I think with a rosewood board). Three old school R and B songs - it was very nice and played beautifully. It was one of the best P bass sounds I've ever created with my own hands!! Maybe that ignited some GAS - I even got out the Fender bass book last night and looked at all those custom coloured basses shown in it. Fabulous.

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1348396924' post='1813044'] Was the selection of wood done on the basis of tone, availability of supply or cost per unit? If the wood was so important (as claimed by so many sellers) what contribution did fullerplast make above and beyond what an 80's JV Squier offered? I'd love an opportunity to separate the myth from the fact because there seems to be so much bullshit about vintage Fenders given the context they were produced in. If that happens, hopefully I'll learn something in the process. [/quote] +1 - the situation with wood choice is very interesting - and particularly the change from ash to alder in the 50s - from what I've read, this could have been based on production efficiency (less finish and paint prep required).

These basses are not bad - I've played a few of them in shops in the past. My son bought one as a back up to his Stingray (he's a leftie) - it's passive and does get the underlying Stingray vibe. The 5 er predated Musicman making a 5 string Stingray with the oval pickguard and I agree with you, they look very good. However there is an adage that if you want a Ray sound, you need a Ray and this is true. I think the closest you'll get is a SBMM Ray 34. From what I've heard the Nordstrand pick up is a good replacement - you may or may not already know that Musicman do not sell major part spares - they will sell you say a pick up or neck but only on receipt of the item to be replaced (people usually do this because it's non functional or damaged in some way). This way, they are able to minimise the amount of non factory produced instruments in circulation (you could say fakes or repros). John East also does a good pre amp. For a SR4 sound you need Alnico poles. I have a ceramic SR5 - it does the SR4 sound in parallel setting but not exactly - it's a little more aggressive I think. However I think the Vintage is good in its own right and you can certainly use it to get the classic types of sound - save up for a used Stingray - there are always a few on Ebay and the prices make them good value. The SBMM Sub series basses are designed, I suspect, to compete directly with the Vintage and other basses produced in this proce range - early days but they seem very good and certainly sound like a Ray.

Quality in production is very much about systems to ensure consistency of output in terms of performance and consistency of product. From what I've heard and know, the consistency of Fender instruments is very varied so this implies in itself that quality is, or certainly has been, variable to say the least - how many times have I heard people say, you need to try a bunch before you get the right one. This does not demonstrate good quality and smacks of the sort of variability you might expect buying a new car in the 70s, say. All that said, I have a soft spot for Fender basses and I particularly love these old custom colour basses. I'm also mindful that these basses were designed, particularly in the case of the Precision, in order to get over the problems of amplifying a double bass which existed at the time - this was in the days of mono music reproduction and rudimentary studio recording techniques - thus the concept and design was based on those parameters, particularly from an electronic point of view. The world in terms of all of this has moved on significantly and it is amazing to me that these anachronisms could be in general use today. Sadly, in some genres their use undermines the music to my mind and 'funky ass synth bass' is far more appropriate. Yes there are people who tell me I should use a pre CBS Fender to play metal - unfortunately they are wrong!!! Far too much nostalgia, far too much 'retro vibe' fashion and far too little common sense I'm afraid. But I do have a big soft spot for these basses. I also do for original Mini Cooper S cars - I would never subject one to day to day use - just admire for its beauty and use sparingly and with the reverence a near museum piece deserves, if only to preserve it as long as possible. Plus, there are many products which do the job better on a day to day basis IMO. I find it very difficult to have a different view and outlook on bass guitars.

Goodness - a decent thickness of paint of some of those beauties then - so much for thin paint finish contributing to tone....... There is also a story that owing to the popularity of the Shadows, the British importers had an amount of new sunburst guitars refin'd in fiesta red as they were more saleable. But don't count as a factory refin..............

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1348333950' post='1812500'] Just buy another Bongo before the price rise [/quote] Lol - well I wouldn't mind a PDN one! Vintage Fender would be a different level of purchase financially and not just yet. I read a fascinating site about custom colour Fender instruments and quite a lot of bona fide instruments appear to have been painted over the top of sunburst (one of the standard colurs) - theory is they were imperfect paint jobs and cheaper and more cost effective to undercoat and top coat over an existing finish than to start with a bare body - plus they get a mark up for the custom colour - canny guys, eh?

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1348185840' post='1810716'] My dream bass, forgive me if I don't advertise its presence! Not fender though [/quote] And what was it (you can whisper in that small font if you want). Another vintage Fender query - this time about 'natural relicing' - now I understand belt buckle rash, dings on the edges and wear points like the arm contour, but why is it I see vintage Fenders for sale which have heavy paintwork damage in fairly inaccessible areas - such as between the bridge and edge of the body - unless an owner has been carelessly changing strings over and over and over again, say on a daily basis, I don't get it - it sort of looks like deliberate damage to me. Any comments from experts on this??

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1348327126' post='1812392'] I've got a white Musicman Reflex bass and that looks like a toilet with the lid down . Great bass, though. [/quote] Yes the same thought occurred to me the other day when I saw a white Lakland - come to think of it ALL basses in white with white pickguards look like toilets with the seat down. And +1 for Musicman 20 - pics please of the white Reflex.

Excellent thread - I shall be interested to see pictures of the finished bass. And unfortunately (and noting your comments about making it clear in the build it's a repro - I'm sure there are others not so alturistic when big money is involved), it scares the hell out of me thinking about buying a pre CBS - although I also know quite a lot of the recognition points on these basses.

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1348214964' post='1810819'] Good to know. Im sure the majority are fine. I remember thinking this might be a bit liek the MIM Geddy Jazz neck. A few people have said its too thin and bows too much but on the whole they are fine. [/quote] The neck appears to be based on the MM Sterling, SLO Special Stingray and Big Al design - there are not issues of this type with those basses and I've personally not heard of issues with these - they seem to get praised by most people. Have you tried a Sub SBMM - half the price and sounds very Stingray to me - the walnut one looks particularly good - they appear to have a narrower neck profile also (not sure if it's the Ray 34CA profile though). [quote name='Grand Wazoo' timestamp='1348217581' post='1810882'] You're going to need one of each of these to see sense, and you still might miss it! [center][color=#ee82ee][size=8][b]LENS PORN[/b][/size][/color] [/center] [/quote] Now that explains everything - Fran those new basses of yours don't have straight frets you know

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1348144467' post='1809934'] Think about how pleased you are to see one when you really need to use one. Where I would have to draw the line is if EBMM were to start offering some kind of roadworn toilet finish with a kind of not -cleaned -in-months relicing effect. That would be a step too far. [/quote] What an idea - throw a 19 mm spacing neck on it - call it a TB special. [quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1348144467' post='1809934']Personally, I think we need to get away from the idea that looking like a toilet or indeed toilets themselves are bad things[/quote] I do agree - I would liken it to the same bunch of people relating classic Bruce Forsyth and Jimmy Tarbuck jokes verbatum on the pressing of some subliminal button - boring, very very old hat and quite irritating!! I'd never come across it until I joined bass forums. Dingus, I do like your take on this ancient theme though!

Which is?

[quote name='Schnozzalee' timestamp='1348169955' post='1810437'] every musicman I've played has had a twisted neck dead spots or bowing You are definitely the world's unluckiest person - I've never heard of anyone having this problem before (other than with some 3 bolt pre EB Stingrays). Of course, set up of the modern basses with 6 bolt neck is very easy, given the improvements introduced under Sterling Ball's tenure (simple tweak of the truss rod wheel to adjust back bow etc). [quote name='Schnozzalee' timestamp='1348169955' post='1810437'] I just hate the screws on the pickup sticking into my thumb - not comfortable. I'd sit tight with your CV precision and jazz! Try a kubicki [/quote] You are certainly inaccurate as well - this type of pick up appears only on the SR4, SR4 Classic and SR5 Classic - none of the other Musicman bass models have them - they are flat topped on all of those. The gap between the screws on the original Leo design is usually wide enough for people to rest their thumb comfortably - unless you have extremely wide thumbs. Many bass players rest their thumb on the lowest string (almost essential on a 5 string anyway, to stop the string ringing when not in use) Now I'm presuming you think that Jazz and Precision basses do not have dead spots..................... [/quote]

[quote name='Johnnysonic' timestamp='1348154372' post='1810122'] [attachment=118902:IMG_3244.JPG] The P Bass is nice - an early '63. [/quote] Now that's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind - v nice indeed.

Rick - thanks for your advice. I am guessing fiesta red may be the opposite extreme in terms of desirability for a custom colour (particularly on a Precision), given the Pino Palladino and Jet Harris uses of this colour? The black issue is in contrast to the situation now where (apparently) the most popular colours in terms of sales are black and sunburst.

[size=6][sub][size=4]A couple more droolworthy pics[/size] [/sub][/size] [size=5][sub][attachment=118872:pdn Bongo.jpg][/sub][/size] [size=5][sub][attachment=118873:PDN Bongo headstock.jpg][/sub][/size] [size=5][sub]Yes I would like a Bongo 5 please!! Or a Stingray...............etc etc! [/sub][/size] [size=5][sub][size=6][sub][size=4][quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1348094033' post='1809369'] That Sterling is basically the Big Al concept ain't it? [/quote][/size][/sub][/size][/sub][/size] [size=5][sub] [/sub][/size] [size=5][sub][size=6][sub][size=4]Well the pick up arrangement is - lacks the pointy pointy body though.[/size][/sub][/size][/sub][/size]

I would not rule that out. However, if I go down the vintage/investment route a pre CBS Fender is a likely target.

[quote name='cloudburst' timestamp='1348090623' post='1809302']And they obviously didn't foresee the toilet-seat banter, otherwise they'd have made the final one a different colour. You'd think. CB [/quote] The white version didn't last long - very rare and quite sought after. They said they discontinued it because of problems matching the neck and body colours but I have always wondered if the TB banter influenced it. Apparently the Sterling was intended to have single colis but the MM single coil pick up hadn't been perfected by then so appeared on the Bongo first. Back to the mahogony Bongo - someone on the MM forum has received his Bongo 6H so more pics should be available soon. Be interesting to see the headstock treatment on a Bongo.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1348009324' post='1808209'] BTW the 30 year rule thing is something I just have noticed- no idea if it's actually true or carries on[/quote] Folks - please note. However I have also noticed this - as people who know me will know, my main bass playing interest is Musicman, and for the last few years I have watched the price of late 70s and especially early 80s basses escalate in price. I have bought new ones in the past although have picked up an early 90s one recently (which I use almost weekly in gigs!) - I passed on buying an MM Cutlass and an artist owned pre EB Ray in the early 2000s - kick myself on one hand, but then think I wouldn't have the gorgeous SR5 I bought new at the time if I'd bought one of these. I expect that these modern basses may increase in value as they get much older - but that will be something for my children to think about!! I ain't selling em. [quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1348040968' post='1808318'] Absolutely essential to try before buying in my opinion, do some research by going somewhere that has lots in stock and hear and feel the differences between otherwise identical instruments. The Gallery in Camden seem to have a quite a few in at the moment [url="http://www.thebassgallery.com/Product_VintageGear.cfm"]http://www.thebassga...VintageGear.cfm[/url] also Andy Baxter in Shoreditch usually has loads [url="http://andybaxterbass.com/"]http://andybaxterbass.com/[/url] I tried two almost identical Jazz basses, one a scruffy well worn 72 and one an almost pristine 69. Despite both basses being nice and light, having fresh strings and a good setup the pristine 69 sounded like junk, everything that was bad about CBS basses. The 72 however was great and is now one of my favourite basses. I'd suggest getting out there and playing some now even if you're not ready to buy, it can take a while to find what you're looking for. [/quote] Good advice thanks - I do look at what the Bass Gallery has, and have spent time in Vintage and Rare also on occassion. Andy Baxter has Musicmans including a Sabre.......................I think I would get side-tracked!!!

Yes pao ferro is used on EBMM fretless necks - it looks great on mine (which is also in the colour now known as honeyburst!!) Only a couple of Bongos have been produced before in a trans colour over a figured wood - one was mahogony for an artist. The bass had been played by quite a number of the American forum members as it appeared at an 'open house' event - it had become revered as a great sounding instrument - so the availability of this (if you pre-ordered it about 9 months ago) on a Bongo has sparked a lot of interest from fans who are awaiting their arrival this month. SOme American dealers have also pre-ordered some so there will be some available (Musicman 20 has enquired and as none have been ordered in the UK, EBMM have said they will allow them to be shipped, on individual agreement). They were available across the whole bass range offered, including lefties and fretless - so people are awaiting Big Als, Reflexes and Sterlings. People have ordered some quite unusual configs - I think there's a Bongo 6Hp, for instance. I read some recent stuff from Sterling Ball which referred to him particularly liking BMW's modern take on the Mini (to the extent he had one for a while) and that this had been part of the move to involve BMW, after he realised their Dreamworks team was in California - they were very happy to be involved and the Bongo was their code name for the bass guitar project. (Of course, the Mini had been designed/developed in the UK by Rover by the time BMW got involved and subsequently bought out just that model and factory - no doubt the Dreamworks team got involved in the car after they bought into Rover).

I have read that a rubber (pencil/ink eraser type..........no other type of rubber for those with too much knowledge of 1950s UK popular culture!) can sort this out - not tried myself but maybe worth a go.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1348000071' post='1808022'] I'm not a SB fan, nor a Bongo fan, but that looks nice. It's the hideous pale rosewood fretboard I can't stand. [/quote] It's pao ferro (as featured on fretless Musicman basses) - I agree it looks a bit insipidon that wide 6 string neck, but the 4 string Ray looked far better - the varnished birds eye maple headstock helps - not visible in the Bongo pic.

[quote name='Rick's Fine '52' timestamp='1347976791' post='1807503'] For the most part, I'd agree with this. Every bass should be judged on its merits, I've seen some '63 Jazz's for example that are absolute dogs, so year alone is not an indication on quality, or investment. Having said that, you can generally rely on them to increase in value, but you must have a good one, that will always appeal to players and collectors. All of mine have increased in value since buying, some significantly so. The main things to consider are; Firstly, and most importantly, does it play properly, and does everything function as it should, Truss rod free, with plenty of movement?, wiring and pots crackle free, neck straight, good intonation etc. If all that stuff is OK, then you know it plays, and therefore is fit for its primary function, so huge tick in the box, and then you can move on to the stuff that should be considered, if you are also hoping for investment opportunity, these things include; Originality, particularly finish. Refinished basses will never appreciate at the same rate as original finishes. Most collectors won't touch refinished guitars, so your market, when re-selling, is instantly reduced. On the other hand, by the same token, refin'd guitars are much cheaper in the first place, which can mean you can afford a '62 Jazz, for the same price as a '68 original finish Jazz. Original pickups, pots etc are also vitally important. Basically, the more thats original, the more desirable. If it has original case, this also makes a difference. Years, and colours, is very difficult, as each one should be taken on its individual merits. the [i]general[/i] rule of thumb, is the earlier the better, so, a '60 Jazz will be more valuable than a '62, which will be more valuable than a '64. Slab necks are also far more desirable than veneer necks on Jazzes. Precisions are a bit different, as there were more models available, and each one has a transition period, which brings in different things to different collectors, but you've already said you dont like the pre-57 shape, so that makes it far easier. A gold anodized guard/maple neck is probably the most desirable, and regarded as the ultimate fender bass, the one that Leo finally perfected after the earlier 6 years. A gold guard, with rosewood neck is rarer, but less desirable, as it looks odd for the purists. From there, again, its generally earlier the better. A slab board is better than a veneer board, spaghetti logo's without pat numbers, better than ones with. Transition decals are then cheaper than spaghetti's etc. Colours. Custom colours are rarer than sunbursts, but can be an acquired taste, not everyone likes candy apple red, or lake placid blue, including me. I personally think a Fender bass should be sunburst or blonde, depending on the era, and thats what I buy, others collect [i]only[/i] custom colours! Again, each one on its merits, and of course, whether it's value or not. Also, some custom colours are crazy rare, Teal Green for example, on a jazz is highly prized, and can command serious cash, Black, also a custom colour, is a bit of a no-no when it comes to old Fenders, and can be very difficult to shift, collectors generally won't touch one. In summary, originality, playability, rarity and condition, will dictate the value, and subsequent appreciation, and re-saleability (made up word!), the higher the rating on each of those 4 counts, the better the investment opportunity...in the medium to long term of course, not much doubles over night! Cautionary note, an instrument (or anything), will only be a good investment if you dont pay over the odds in the first place, so make sure its a good opportunity. Todays market is an excellent time to buy, with more choice out there than I've known for a long time (Even if most are in the US, which may be an issue for some buyers). i would also advise you to firstly buy a guitar because it plays and sounds how you want it to, and secondly for the other factors. Don't just buy a guitar because its 'vintage'. Your budget, and only you will know what this is, will dictate what level instrument you will be looking at, whether it's an original '58 Precision, an original '63 Precision, a refinished '64 Jazz etc. Shop around, use gBase as a guide to what prices things are being offered at, and make a judgement. I'd be more than happy to advise on anything you have in mind, and give an objective view. Hope this helps. Rick [/quote] Rick - thanks for this, it's very helpful. If/when I do get to the stage of buying one I'll certainly PM you. Thanks to everyone else as well. I would certainly want to buy one which functioned properly, played well and was as original as possible (thus implying the need to try before buying) - many seem to have replacement pots and tuners but I guess this is wear and tear? Would this put people off, in terms of resale desirability? I've had to replace more than one tuner on my Musicman basses, but with Musicman items - basically caused by gigging damage (pesky drummers and all that steelwork!! And sax players are almost as dangerous) - so I would see this as a not-unusual situation in a vintage bass, so long as the correct items had been used to effect the repair - I guess a good player is more likely to have been played and thus may be more battered than a case queen that had sat there because owners didn't like it as a player - or do collectors just park them for decades to look at or not as the case may be? [quote name='thodrik' timestamp='1347995167' post='1807902'] Pretty much. In 1998 my 1978 Precision cost me £380. I've seen basses from a similar era going for £1200 or even more. Its strange though as the basses themselves are no better than they were ten years ago.[/quote] That's very interesting - FWIW in 1973 I spent several idle minutes and more every time I passsed a shop window in which resided a brand new Precision in natural, maple board, black scratchplate near where I lived - THE R and B bass of the time to have, as seen with Stevie Wonder and others of the time - it's tag price was £252! So given that was the age of huge inflation, a value of a late 70s bass (similar era) selling in 1998 at about £400 is quite surprising. As a comparison the sunburst Stingray I bought new in 79/80 was £350/£375, I think. I sold it for £475 about 5 yrs later - it sold within an hour or two of the ad appearing in the back of Melody Maker, and the guy drove 100 miles that night to collect it!! Just goes to show that the market goes up and down, but 30 yr thing is very interesting - and I agree, the price of 70s Fenders (and Musicman) has increased dramatically - I guess it's because the value of the 60s stuff has moved out of reach of many people who want to own and play them.