drTStingray

I don't think you'll find this is going to be unique to EBMM - it might sound like I'm being patronising but it's so easy for us to forget there's a global pandemic. It is affecting production the world over.

So it appears there are shortages of musical instruments in the US and everywhere else. Also it's not limited to that - my son is into buying guitar effects pedals and tells me he has bought one direct from a US manufacturer - not only is it cheaper even after the carriage/duties but he'll get it 5 months quicker than through someone like Andertons. It's not limited to effects - lots of stuff like parts (valves for instance), unless they're in stock are quoted in months rather than days.

So look out folks - I suppose the fact we (or a lot of us) are sat at home either working or not and most certainly not performing music or playing other than at home should be a warning signal all is not well - and hasn't been for nearly a year. 

Is it not a bit presumptuous and unrealistic to expect the supply chain for this sort of thing (which could hardly be considered a key industry - especially when users can't actually use the stuff properly) not to be affected and possibly for the problem not to continue to deepen  - like everything else I think it will be a long while before 'normal service' or anything approaching it will be resumed. This is not just an EBMM thing although that has manifested itself in prices and availability from the Andertons site (availability in the US will, of course, also be affected - in fact the general shortage of instruments in the US was being highlighted on You Tube channels many months ago - I think I saw an example of a Taylor guitar (for demo) given). It's an industry-wide issue (as you would expect in a long running global pandemic). 

I'm not taking anything personally but was just a bit annoyed - I mean 328 replies - 7000 odd views on a thread that started by talking about new bass colours and soon morphed into a price increase matter in the UK. 

Lots of theories and lots and lots of replies from the same people (yes me included - I'm tarred with the same pot and kettle!!). 

Very nice bass @Eldon Tyrell - love the colour - congratulations. I personally can't get on with the pick ups on those G and L basses so prefer my MM Sabre. 

Btw FWIW I didn't say everything in this thread was BS by any means - but there appears to be a fundamental problem of some people understanding basic facts. Then we get the Basschat member's who have fixation key words and phrases - 'Sterling Ball', 'EBMM forum' - all we need now is 'John Hall', 'Stingray weak G string', 'Rickenbacker' - let's hope I haven't triggered any relapses here 🤔

And I do agree the prices are eye watering. 

Btw I'm a member of the Musicman bass forum - it's only a cult in so much any one brand forum is - ever tried one of the one model car forums? As you would expect, people tend to be focussed only on that brand or model otherwise why would they be there? And yes the car ones do round on people being very negative and unhelpful - same everywhere really. 

6 hours ago, pineweasel said:

Covid 19 is placing restrictions on EBMM's factory staff levels, and those of their suppliers too, hence the current lower output.

Thank goodness someone talks some sense on this forum - there is so much disinformation and frankly bull*hit in this thread that it's knee deep.

For instance what sort of idiot thinks EBMM just bolt machine made bodies and necks together with no human or even craftsman input? A tiny bit of research on the internet would show you how wrong that is.

It greatly pisses me off that this forum seems to totally get off on dissing manufacturers like EBMM and Rickenbacker in a big way - what's the more irritating is a great quantity of the input is verging on disinformation.

Why haven't the perpetrators of this thread not fu**ed off days ago and bought something that takes their fancy for a price that suits their pocket?

It seems the forum is partially stocked with serial moaners and negative people. Yes you do heartily pi*s me off folks - as you probably know I really like these basses and actually sympathise with the price issue - but it doesn't deserve some of the frankly idiotic posts above. Do the moderators not worry about serial disinformation and moaning? It seems not as they permitted a for sale thread entitled toilet seat bass - whoa surely not - Musicman dissing again 🙄🤔  Surprised if the advertising standards authority would respond positively to complaints they might receive about that..... 

Agreed - some fascinating stuff in there - I didn't realise the bass has so much flange effect and the Fripp parts are crazy (isolated)!! Excellent. 

My SR5sHH was listed as £2450 in April 2018 (when I ordered it). So that's £750 up in just under 3 yrs. There'll be a mark up if the new one is a burst/sparkle and a further one for a matching headstock. 

You may be better trying to find a used one - @Old Horse Murphy has an SR5s for sale on this site.  

I too am astonished at the Bongo prices which have been quoted but suggest that people will be hard pressed to find them in stock for sale!! 

46 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

That’s all well and good but not really sure how any of it has got anything to do with the prices shooting up (and far more so in the UK than in the US) for essentially the same product. Would you pay £1000 more than two months ago for the same instrument in a different (but not necessarily better) paint job?

They're not though are they - you're using clearance sale prices as a comparison which is clearly wrong. Compare the  2021 price with the 2020 retail price - that would be a reasonable comparison - it'll obviously still be a fair jump but not as much as on the distorted basis you've quoted. 

Those Andertons clearance prices are less than the price some of us paid for the same basses in 2018!! 

The point about sizes of the relative companies is important. The bigger companies can probably weather some of the more global issues affecting these things for a time better than a smaller company - just look at coffee shops or cafes on High Streets - clearly the like of Starbucks, Costa and McDonald's can survive for a time better than smaller operations. 

Each company has to set its business model accordingly and change and adapt. 

4 hours ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

Full disclosure, I actually did consider buying the pink sparkle HH when it first arrived at Bass Direct. It would have suited my 80’s band perfectly, but I wasn’t prepared to drop £2,799 (I think) at the time. I saved the picture to my photos.

Me too - I also looked a couple of days ago and it has been sold. Andertons still have one but they've always been asking £200-300 more for their's. The sparkle basses seem to have been quite popular judging by the number of them people on forums and elsewhere seem to have. 

I too like these sparkle colours - already having several basses in natural, sunburst or white (we can't all be the same but I'd never ever consider buying a black bass in a million years - well maybe a pre EB Ray), these are colours my ex wife considers are 'boring' - it has been somewhat spoiling us for Musicman to have offered their Stingray Specials in such a range of colours including sparkles and bright yellow etc etc. People have consistently requested this sort of thing since a group of sparkle colours were produced in the early 2000s (and dropped quite quickly).

Anyway, regarding prices, back when I was but a youth (before a number of you were born i would guess) a brand new US Precision in natural (the ONLY valid colour for one in the early 70s) would have set me back £252 - whilst my annual salary was £936 (0.27 of it). If I was a youth now on minimum wage that would equate to £3.5-4.5k dependent on your age and thus minimum wage (40 hrs per week). No wonder the only people playing real Fenders (and Gibsons, and occasionally Rickenbackers) back then were either famous pros or people with very deep pockets - mere mortals played copies of the real thing - in my case an Antoria. 

So I do wonder whether we are all moaning a little too much here..... or at the very least, unrealistic expectations and in reality higher end US made basses are just moving back to being the luxury items they always were 😀

Ive had TI flats on my strings through body bridge Stingray for a few years - absolutely no problem whatsoever. 

I wouldn't have thought the Cobalt flats would present a problem - I have them on a fretless Stingray but that is top strung through the bridge. 

The strings through body bridge on the Stingray increases sustain significantly (with roundwounds) - not sure with flats as they, by their nature are more thumpy and tend to sustain less. 

Im not surprised Rotos don't advise stringing through the body - I once put some on a Stingray 5 - they had far too high tension for my liking - felt like you needed to be a champion arm wrestler to play the bass - they were soon replaced - a relatively expensive experiment that didn't work.... 

16 minutes ago, pineweasel said:

There's another well known company mass producing guitars and basses in southern California, using the same materials and techniques, and subject to the same Covid related issues, and their prices haven't skyrocketed. 

If it's the one I think you're talking about, they make, well a gazillion more than almost anyone else, and seem to work on a business model that has a vast inventory made in advance and either in stock or in the supply chain - so it takes many months to 'catch up' with reality. Look back at the availability of ash issue - months if not a year before Fender changed what they were doing - they also seem to carry a vast amount of debt as an organisation - perhaps they're subsidising musicians - I somehow doubt it!!! 

In terms of EBMM it's like trying to compare Ford with Aston Martin or pick your name for a smaller niche manufacturer. 

EBMM is more on a par with PRS. It seems to me like a hike in all instrument prices is very likely across the board as all catch up with the reality of shipping crises, the B word and most of all Covid. It's certainly happened with cars over the last two years. 

Getting the thread back on subject, I'm not taken with most of the new colours - one or two appeal to me. However the prices......... maybe I'll place the order for a Wal after all these years 😬

I haven't visited the for sale thread recently - 64 replies and only a couple asking about or referring to the bass for sale! 

Ive got one of these and it's great (mind you anyone referring to it as a bog seat is likely to get to feel it's weight directly rather than through its sound 😬 ) spookily in my experience the only people in the real world who think they look like bog seats tend to be occassional bass players who usually play old Fender basses often painted in a colour resembling poo of sorts - normal people (and it seems a selection of some of the 64 members replying to this thread have a major lavatory fetish) don't seem to have this problem, at least referring to mine far more positively! 

Anyway GLWTS! And have a bump on me!! No doubt the lavatory fetish guys will be back shortly 😏 unfortunately not to buy your bass!!  

(PS the moderation seems to be a bit lax here (not laxative though - ouch 😂?). 

13 minutes ago, Eldon Tyrell said:

@drTStingray - Would love to get the HH in Burnt Apple for the old price. Unfortunately, the only HH model that Andertons is showing for £2,199 (jet black) is out of stock. The new H models now start at £2,749, several are listed for £2,899 and one at £2,999. Therefore, the HH version in the new colours (in my case Raspberry Burst) will cost at least £100 more than that (i.e., £2849-£3,099). So, find me the HH in Burnt Apple for the old price (£2,199 or £2,299, that's what the now "old" HH models go for) here in the UK and I'll buy it tomorrow!  Looking forward to hearing from you 😎

It's worth asking them if they can get one for you (there may be others in the system in the UK). Whilst not an answer for the price of the latest basses I do know that several UK shops had one each of the Champagne sparkle BFR models - there was a range of around £300 in the prices dependent on which shop you bought from - so maybe the retail mark up chosen is a factor as well? 

As I said before, it will be interesting to see Thomann's prices. 

1 hour ago, martthebass said:

Well mine may be Ash but I wouldn’t class it as lightweight.

I think the starry nights were pre Stingray Special? The specials are quoted to be at least 1lb lighter than the earlier design, as a result of lightweight tuners and other hardware as well as lightweight swamp ash bodies (until about a year ago for the ash). I don't think I was particularly lucky but my SR4HH and SR5HH specials are around 8lb or slightly under. 

Whilst sub 8lb earlier Stingrays certainly exist they're more likely to be around 9.5 lbs or slightly more. 

1 hour ago, Kev said:

Almost all your points are, again, applicable to all other builders like EBBM, and yet price rises haven't been seen anything like it elsewhere.  They also don't address the huge rise in the UK and not so huge rise anywhere else (yet), which should have nothing to do with Brexit.

You clearly fall comfortably into the "defend" category of players I mentioned earlier and that's fair enough, I have similar loyalties to a couple of brands, but the points being raised are very valid, and they are going to hurt EBBM's sales unless they provide an explanation.  Standard Musicman Stingray basses are not £3k instruments, they just aren't, at the spec they are a built to.  You can get a custom bass for that money.

You could argue in a similar vein that Fender Team Built CS are not worth the amount they are also, or PRS and any number of other manufacturers - CS is more expensive than this and is really just selected mass built parts with human finishing to an extent. 

Ive been interested in a Wal build  for ages - but I'd be paying over £6500 for that - yes it would be constructed from better materials than a Stingray Special but arguably, the sound is in a similar ball park. 

Im certainly not a supporter of these high prices but equally I'm trying to be a little more open minded than some people seem to be in this. I also think quite a few people give EBMM a hard time for several diverse reasons.

You may wish to see this You Tube covering the supply issue amongst manufacturers. Not sure if the Fender ocean going oil tanker has been affected by this storm yet or if there's still plenty of old stock on the system still to be sold. 

https://youtu.be/FPCf9t4B98A

13 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

Not sure. I’ve seen some MM blanks somewhere, probably a factory tour vid or something from a few years ago and you could tell the solid colour ones as the wood was neither grain matched nor joined in the centre. Some were 3-piece bodies. At least they make or an effort than Fender with their transparent finishes!

These were for US Sub instruments IIRC so would have been given the textured finish (2003-6 period), and would be poplar.

Poplar was used for solid colours on Musicman basses in the 90s going over more or less competely to ash in the 2000s. 

The Steve Morse guitar in blueburst has a poplar body but no doubt with blanks containing more closely matched wood grain (although alder, poplar and basswood don't have as much grain as ash). 

18 minutes ago, martthebass said:

I know the spec of my PDN Starry Night Ray is for an Ash body but I wondered why they would go to the bother on a solid colour like that?

They were all lightweight swamp ash until that commodity became relatively unobtanium - they use it on the Joe Dart bass still but that is relatively low volume. This started a year or so back when they dropped the natural ash and one or two other colours on Stingrays - I think they're now using poplar and basswood but there's no reason why that shouldn't still be light. 

4 minutes ago, Kev said:

Yeah, sorry that's what I mean by lower grade, and wood with less attractive grain is almost always cheaper to buy, and therefore use.

The reason they stopped using lightweight swamp ash, some time ago, along with other builders is that it's become incredibly scarce. It's nothing to do with increasing profits. The suggestion weights of EBMM basses has generally increased has obviously not been based on any scientific study so some of the conclusions being drawn in this thread are frankly wrong and are disinformation (very popular in the US apparently until recently - it was reported a particular world leader was carrying a 15ft long nose in front of him - preventing him from wearing a Covid mask!!)

Something that hasn't been covered in this thread is the supply shortage of instruments and the huge backlog of orders caused by Covid. There's plenty of info about this on You Tube but basically suppliers are having difficulty in obtaining stock in many instances. Those with even a basic knowledge of economics will realise the relationships between supply, demand and price. 

So before people run off with the ideas that EBMM is a profiteering company providing worse quality products (including a weight increase) look at the broader picture. And as EBMM is a relatively low volume manufacturer which doesn't stock vast inventory, they will clearly be subject to worldwide economic factors earlier than some other manufacturers (whose business model is more volume led). 

This was true of the ash problem (Fender followed about six months later).

The other thing, I'm just curious why, given Andertons seem to be selling older stock of discontinued colours at prices lower than some of us paid 2+ years ago, some of the people moaning about profiteering and the like (in my opinion completely ignoring a raft of facts) haven't rushed out to snap up these relative bargains? Very curious 🤔😬

@Kev I don't know but I suspect that dropped copper Stingray may be from 2018 - when I bought mine (special order) they had a huge stock of new Stingray Specials and although they'd sold about 10 when I bought mine, there were clearly quite a lot of others there.

I was hoping they'd reduce the BFR Stingray Special fretlesses as I had my eye on one - last time I looked they'd been taken off sale.... 

@Eldon Tyrell let's see what Thomann have to say - that will be useful - however bear in mind the shipping crisis is also very much a UK one (as well as worldwide) - people are shipping to Europe to avoid delays and then trucking across (if they can be bothered to trade owing to the Brexit paperwork - and costs). 

2 hours ago, Kev said:

I think it just shows contempt for their devoted players who will, undoubtedly, defend and keep buying.

This is a conclusion you'd reach if you ignore all the other factors referred to in this thread - eg shipping costs increasing by a factor exceeding 500% in some instances - VAT on those increases - people quoting reduced sale price of instruments and even those 20 yrs ago - some accurate prices from 2 yrs ago (and more) are shown in this thread. 

I suspect that as this has been raised on the EBMM forum and a moderator responded, the company is aware of the issue so hopefully will be considering how to reduce the price of these standard instruments to lower than the BFR specials issued in 2020 (Andertons appear to have them priced higher in some instances) 😕

Theyll need to lower the prices for me to partake - having said that I already have two Stingray Specials so don't really need another, nice though some of those colours are (I don't get the moan a couple of posts up about the colours - I for one was heartily pleased to see such a good colour range 2 yrs ago when EBMM updated the Stingray - fantastic basses by the way 👍).  

In any case there is no evidence that vaccinated people can't spread the virus after vaccination.

And given the need to provide all of the 15? Million in the first four bands with a second vaccine within 12 (or is it now 6 wks) then it will be a while before the vaccination is at a good percentage of the population. And the US will be entering the market for a lot of vaccine after the Trump vaccine scam (or at least gross overstatement). 

Im not expecting indoor gigs before at least mid 2022 - who knows whether there'll be a third wave winter 2021-2 either. 

Anyone seen this? Effect on instrument prices?

Shipping crisis: I'm being quoted £10,000 for a £1,600 container' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55740063

I was also quoted 30 wks delivery (not guaranteed) on a new German car yesterday - as opposed to 12 wks last year - apparently there is a worldwide shortage of semi conductors which is contributing to interruption of supply....  😧

On 18 January 2021 at 14:08, petecarlton said:

A comfortable bog seat. 

They're definitely comfortable - I haven't got this loo seat thought (with a very pointy and long top horn and stubby lower one) - not sure how that works on a bog seat but hey ho - each to their own!! 😁 I prefer to think of the shape and edges to be more akin to something less lavatorial!!!

i really like mine - if you don't like the pg shape you can always take it off. Mine has no dents and certainly no pulled out screws - indeed the pg screws are sleeved. I've had mine for 10 yrs (it's 12 yrs old) and none of the 'potential' problems suggested for basswood have happened, probably because the bass is very well put together, as you would expect for something of that price - it's a 5HHp and the piezo sounds especially good mixed in. I once played a sort of hip hop low B string part using almost all piezo - it was an excellent effect!! 

These basses have got great tonal ability - mine is a sort of orange (lava pearl) - these bold colours suit Bongo basses. I must say I really like this new colour also. 

Interesting - I guess we all hear and perceive things differently - I've had the opposite experience - my 4HH gets a very passable recorded Bernard Edwards sound live with the EQ around centre detent, two pick ups in humbucker mode. I did a dep gig outdoors with a lot of R and B influenced rock and also classic soul - really sounded great (and totally not that early 60s wishy washy sound although that is available). Mightily impressive and I'm very glad I have both 4 and 5 HH Specials available to use. 

18 minutes ago, 40hz said:

When I started playing back in 2003, standard Stingrays were £899 at GAK for the standard and natural finish. It's laser printed on my mind because I remember trying and failing all summer to save for one!!

Diego Blue Sabre though! WOOF! always been on the lookout for that specific bass as IMO, it's the most beautiful looking bass EBMM have ever made!

Were those Stingrays in gig bags though - I know S and T went through periods of not doing them in hard cases - my 2003 SR5 natural/maple was £1295 but with hard case.

Yes the Diego blue was available on the Classic basses for 12 months - it was the only colour sold out on Sabres in the UK in 2014 (I say sold out - I think there was one of each colour brought in and that one was sold) - I was mightily pi**ed off as no one would order one for me - as it was the Neptune blue (somewhat incredibly) came to me in the south of England via a dealer in Scotland - obviously special ordered on my behalf. But that Diego blue was a great colour - the new blue on the 2021 Stingray Special is quite similar - one of the ones I like!! (But not the price).  

I priced up a natural H with maple neck in 2003 - £1350. There was a mint inca silver/maple 77 pre EB in the shop (£1750 - and about £250 over a standard and distressed pre EB) - a one that got away........ I bought a new natural SR5. 

But yes there's a mark up of £200 or so, maybe a bit more on those 'special' basses - the Classic is standard of that type though the colour is rare - at the time (2014) I was after a Diego blue classic Sabre - that would have been not far under £2000 new - I'm glad I got the PDN - mahogany body, flamed maple (roasted) neck and sounds phenomenal!!! Everyone else ordered Bongos and Rays so mine is ultra rare as well. 

But the prices give a pointer. 

33 minutes ago, Kev said:

What’s low supply, the number of basses from EBBM (due to covid etc) or the materials used? 
 

Either way, all mass produced bass builders will have the same issue, so if we don’t see huge price increases across the board, I’d be quite interested to know what unique issue ebbm is facing that can justify this.  And, all the while, keeping US prices reasonable.

Two years ago members of TB were up in arms because of what they perceived massive price hikes for standard instruments in the US - issues caused by various factors but CA specific legislation requirements being one. EBMM was one of the first to mention the swamp ash shortage - long before Fender swapped their ash production over - presumably it takes longer to redirect the great oil tanker that is FMIC - maybe they keep a lot more stock as well.

I suspect the factory output is reduced owing to social distancing and incoming supplies may be affected/ interrupted - as have been many industries here (eg car manufacture - though some of that has been caused by the B word!!) 

Anyway some more real world (UK) EBMM prices:-

August 2014 Classic Sabre Neptune blue PDN (you're unlikely to see another!!) - £2233 new

Oct 2016 old smoothie 40th anniversary Stingray - £2100 new

June 2010 Classic Stingray (one of the first ordered in the uk - Feb 2010) - £1650 new