drTStingray

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1501539147' post='3345442'] No. . . . Go around again! [/quote] Aha - Let's Go Round Again - sounds far better on a Stingray...... 😂

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1501152727' post='3342847'] But what tone would you use for a discussion that disappears up its own fundament(al)? [/quote] One which is better than simply adequate - mind you if it disappeared up its own fundamental it could be considered on a par with the semi-inaudible background bass heard on some modern mixes.

[quote name='Rich' timestamp='1501099555' post='3342565'] here's the thing: my main motivation for using different sounds to try to emulate the original is that [u]I want to[/u]. I like the whole tone-shaping process, and yes this probably makes me a bit of a nerd but I don't care [/quote] I think tone is all part of being a musician, be it a good, average or poor one. I think most of us strive to be above average at least, if not much better than that. Not worrying about tone and how the bass contributes (in the case of a cover song, contributed) to the tone and feel of the song to me is accepting approximation which may spoil some listener's experience. Each to their own view but I don't subscribe to the view that the bass sound is not important to a piece - it's actually quite fundamental in my view. Level 42 without a Prophet 5 or something which can emulate it pretty accurately, for me as a fan of their music, would be a washout. As would Mark King playing a Precision, in terms of the affect on the sound of the band. I think it all depends, as a musician, how much you accept approximations. I've played in bands where arrangements of songs have been performed which miss out fundamental hooks (note hooks can be bass hooks), use inaccurate and less effective chord voicings etc etc. No doubt the band sounded competent but is this good musicianship - depends on your viewpoint but my view is it's not. My view is you need to have a bass which has a range of potential sounds as well as being a reasonably flexible and skilled musician to do cover work well.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1501093819' post='3342492'] EQ alters the sound that has been captured by the pickup(s). Therefore it is an effect. [/quote] Not if they are set at neutral - beyond that they can cut and boost. Are passive tone controls effects? This could be taken to the nth degree. The pick up design and state, the electronic component condition (eg capacitors), height of pick ups, volume control, strength and position of plucking etc all change the sound - they could all be classed as effects. I view effects as outboard devices changing the signal significantly such as a distortion/drive, chorus, delay, flanger, phaser etc etc. The idea that onboard EQ is an effect, to me, is a non standard viewpoint. Unless you're talking external EQ unit and even then I wonder.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1501088564' post='3342430'] EQ is an effect. Therefore they are the same. [/quote] Sorry to muscle in on Blue's debate here but I fundamentally disagree. On board EQ is just a more efficient and comprehensive version of a single tone control. Think hi fi rather than Dansette (60s/70s teens will particularly get this analogy). Talking of effects and distortion effect, I have played a Cliff and the Shadows song from the very early 60s which has distortion on the bass in a gig and got virtually the same effect playing my classic Stingray hard, with the treble turned up against full bass on the guitar's EQ, through my MarkBass set up with no pedals!! I was well impressed as was the band. The remainder of the set was thumpy but defined (like a 60s recorded P bass) played over the neck joint - moving bridge wards occassionally for extra definition.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1501061657' post='3342119'] Some of the songs in your list were recorded on a P bass so no onboard EQ and only 1 pickup on the original. If you are saying that not copying the tone on the record makes your playing just adequate then I'd strongly disagree. As I said before, you can play every song with a different tone if you want to, but that isn't necessary. It's your playing that will make or break the song and make you a good or just adequate player. [/quote] I agree and disagree with these points - yes your playing can make a massive difference but not all of it. I know some of the songs were recorded on a P and almost deliberately inserted them - some most definitely weren't!! A recorded P bass from the 60s often sounds nothing like a P bass live - by the 70s they were putting things like Alembic preamps in front of them in the studio to get them to sound good on hi fi stereos at home. The biggest area I disagree on is that the same (ish) tone suits all songs on bass. It most certainly doesn't unless the bass part and it's sound and presence in the mix on the record renders it a backing/support instrument. This is rarely the case in 70s/80s music with any R and B influence where the bass in a fundamental part. Playing All Right Now or Le Freak on a J is about as wrong for me as playing the sax solo on careless whisper or baker st on a synthesiser or guitar. It would sound adequate - and different enough to maybe make it less enjoyable. Recent (ish) performances by Jamiroquay and Brand New Heavies (despite both bass players ranking amongst my most revered and favourite) were marred by the bass sounds being less prominent than I would view as essential to their music - in studio these guys sound great as well - time to crack out the active basses to get the 80s/90s effect???

Simple answer - not as many around as Stingrays and those who have them don't sell them. An alternative is a 92 to 08 SR5. Same electronics and neck as the ST5 - slightly bigger body and different pickguard. Lots of these around and it's possible to find 8.5 lbs ones - more usually 10 lbs. These are awesome basses - I have an 03 SR5 in natural - a little heavy but an absolute tone monster - the most resonant body of any bass I've played. Best of luck searching for an ST5 - you could always order a new one - if it was me I'd go for an HS - adding the single coil to the single pick up Sterling sound adds significant bottom end and warmth to the sound when desired, gives a single coil option and you still get the single humbucker Magic as well when wanted.

If your cover band is anything like the ones I play in youll require a range of sounds and techniques. I'll give a couple of examples - All Right Now - Free; Dock of the Bay - Otis Redding; We Are Family - Sister Sledge; Black Knight - Deep Purple; Smooth Operator - Sade; Need You Now - Lady Antebellum I would say anyone with decent technique and a professional level bass and amp/cab can pull these off adequately. However to be more than adequate you will need possibly a little more from the bass in your hands - in my experience On board EQ 2 pick ups I use a Stingray HH for this type of thing because it's versatile enough, coupled with technique to sound good on all of these. I can range from a scooped Mark King sound through to mid heavy staccato to round and fat bass to thinner legato sound as needed. You could do all of this on a Precision but for those who have heard people play All Right Now on either a P or J it is adequate rather than anything else. Add some effects it may be better. It is possible all of it could be played on an EB3 - the rock would definitely sound good - not sure about the rest. A Rickenbacker and Jazz are also good all rounders. I find the Stingray the winner and the coil selector switch and mid range control are the main ways to get the variations needed to enhance your own technique to get the range which is desirable.

[quote name='doonaboon' timestamp='1500652665' post='3339424'] Was being tongue in cheek with the 'theory' comment, just to be clear! [/quote] It's pretty straightforward to be honest. E natural minor (aeolian mode) has a flat 3rd note (G), flat 6th note (C) and flat 7th note (D) E dominant 7th has the colourful notes G# (3rd) and D (flat 7th) as well as an E. The mode around this is called mixolydian (sometimes called blues scale) - it also appears a lot in jazz and funk. Jean Genie is in the first of these - probably!!! But the use of dominant 7ths often is possibly why the G# sounds reasonable to us as well - as stated by others theory is theory - useful to know in some situations but it is theory so not worth getting too hung up on!!

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1500579160' post='3338905'] They (i.e. we) would commonly have known it was GAG not G#AG# because they (i.e. we) knew it came from the blues in a fairly clear sequence ... ... and probably further back than that but always a flattened third. But, of course, Bowie and the band in his/their brilliance do something new with it. [/quote] I couldn't agree more - to be honest I was a very heavy consumer of all things blues/blues rock from about 68 onwards - items in this 1 b3 4 b3 riff idiom are rife eg Canned Heat - On the Road Again Ten Years After - Help Me Little Red Rooster - Rolling Stones Spirit in the Sky - Norman Greenbaum http://youtu.be/tOuj6att1UY As you say all borrowed from the earlier blues guys and probably before that. I didn't discover the earlier people until a little later, particularly wondering who these writers like Willie Dixon were whose names appeared as the writing credit on bands ranging from Cream to Led Zeppelin to Fleetwood Mac etc. Even things like Fever - Peggy Lee have the b3 in the bass riff (this is a nice thing to play on bass guitar.......so long as the drummer doesn't attempt to turn it into a drum solo!! http://youtu.be/RI5n-ae01Xk I was also mightily impressed by Jean Genie - even more so when playing it slightly later on bass and realising the fusion of straight blues riff with the rock take on the Choruses - and those high octave triplet Es towards the end of the solos - quite tricky to nail. And I guess the other thing here is we bass players seem to have difficulty hearing the difference between two adjacent semi-tones here - I think as ET has said - those of us who came up in the blues rock era would have known it as b3 instinctively - until that Sweet song!!! E Natural minor scale I think.

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1500495836' post='3338297'] Is that Dunbar on drums after Woodmansey was sacked? [/quote] Aynsley?? Ive learned something from this thread - back in the early 70s anyone suggesting playing EEE G#AG# E etc etc would have been considered in the same light as someone insisting on having fish djou rather than liquor with their pie and mash - basically wrong!! However having tried it I'm amazed that it sounds ok and can see why people might - especially if they're very acquainted with the Sweet song. The other thing is the early jump to B on the bass - Mr Boulder said in a BGM or BP interview many years ago that it was a cock up but Bowie liked it - having now watched the video of the Spiders from Mars attached, I do wonder given the speed that everything was recorded whether he Bowie didn't want to or wasn't allowed to fix the error. Having heard it off and on for 45+ years I'm now getting used to it 👍

[quote name='OddBass65' timestamp='1500479386' post='3338134'] Not watched the whole episode yet, as I'm a couple of seasons behind.......... [/quote] I quite like Ed Sheeran having heard a lot of his music on the radio and watched his consummate performance on tv at Glastonbury. I've also been interested in reading about Game of Thrones in this thread having had several people I know wax lyrical about it - I now know why I've never stumbled across it because I'm a Freeview person as well - don't like those Sky and whatever else people - smacks too much of gross capitalism in its grossest, non PC in the 60s/70s, sense to me 😉 😁 As you will guess or know I'm of the 60s, 70s era so to me, a couple of seasons behind = winter 2016-17 - am I right or have I got this totally wrong??! 🤔

I personally think changing make of bass, and thus altering the sound has not been a change for the better. Their earlier stuff was truly thunderous.

I just watched it again, repeated on bbc1. It's a fabulous performance and totally got the whole crowd going. It gets better the further it progresses. You've got to hand it to the guy, a whole string of instantly recognisable pop songs and great stage craft. Yes loopers have been used before, but so have fuzz pedals, wah wah pedals and even two guitar, bass and drums bands. I think he nailed it and having watched it twice can see exactly why he didn't use a band. I was very impressed that whole tracts of people in the audience were even singing along with the rap lyrics - the guy and his music are truly popular.

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1498901868' post='3327838'] So not really a good example of his performance. [/quote] I agree but the point is even in such dire circumstances the solidity, groove and sound of the bass is still a central contribution to the song. I'm still mesmerised by his playing and sound even in that situation, sad though it is based on what we know now. In-built and unique funk machine.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1498858535' post='3327673'] I'm sure someone here will have seen Bernard live? [/quote] I really kick myself but I was gigging in 1979 when they played, and my former wife and most of my mates saw them - infuriating!! Here's a bit of Mr Edwards' magic with Chic. Lovely fat bass sound - my absolute bass playing idol. http://youtu.be/_lx2NUmxTQ0

[quote name='oldbass' timestamp='1498857797' post='3327663'] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Will Lee above....damn, he even looks like a bassist [/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]...brilliant. [/font][/color] [/quote] Fantastic bass player - in fact wonderful bass player but I thought he looked rather like Bernie ahem...... Eccleston

Jerry played/plays great - he is very authentic to a 70s R and B genre which, if you had seen bands like the Crusaders and a host of others live you would instantly recognise. It happens to be my favourite era of bass playing and players so love it. I do have an issue with the sounds - for those who are interested I heard it on my Bose in car system - not wonderful but capable of good reproduction and good bass sound - indeed the previous day radio 2 had played a studio Chic track in which the bass occupied a large portion of the low mid range - it was a fundamental part of the sound. With Chic live at Glastonbury, I particularly noticed My Feet Keep Dancing and the bass was anything but prominent in the low mid range - for me this took a big chunk of sound - rather similar to removing something like the Fender Rhodes or the strings, say from one of their tracks. Of removing Wilkos guitar from say a Dr Feelgood track and replacing it with a lush Les Paul. I'm sure this is a reasonably outspoken view - but I really don't care what guitar or equipment is used but without a fat, poppy bass sound occupying a large sound scape it ain't Chic for me. And that is not what I heard on Sunday. The band are great, however generally, as is Jerry Barnes. The 1996 live Chic work with BE has the same arrangements of many of those songs so they've been playing them even longer. The comparison with Nate Watts is interesting as he does get that fat sound live when required. Indeed I've heard Jerry Barnes do so before - so maybe it was Glasto/BBC to blame.

I heard some of it on radio 2. It lacked the breadth of the bass sound of Bernard Edwards which made the band, for me sound too thin and toppy. For those moaning about the slap, Bernard Edwards slapped quite often live especially in later years. That said I found the slap and pop too nasal and thin sounding. I'm a big fan of Jerry Barnes as a player - I don't know if it was the Glastonbury mix, the Radio 2 rendition or the sound he got on stage but for me it was Chic with a thinner version of a Marcus Miller sound which didn't do it for me - it was quite authentic for the very early Chic (Dance Dance Dance, Everybody Dance and a couple of other early tracks) in my view but far too thin for all but that - just a listen to any of the studio singles will show this. He should play a Wal (or Stingray 👍)

I play in three bands with sax players (one has three piece brass) - they all to an extent use written parts although two of them don't have music stands when we perform. Interestingly Hard to Handle is a great soul song with brass, much wrecked by some rock players. We play this (intended to be a soul version) and the sax player brought along a written brass part true to the original - which he found he couldn't use because the rest of the band played it too fast and inaccurately - we now play it correctly and it's so much better. No crunchy guitar parts - it's driven by the bass and drums with typical soul guitar (where the guitar is a supporting instrument rather than an extension of someone's bedroom guitar jangling/crunch which fills all the space like Status Quo!!). I played this in a jam session recently with our sax player and could see and hear him trying to play the parts - without much joy because the rest of the jammers had no clue what an important part it plays - back to a standard rock dirge I'm afraid. I don't really worry about brass players using charts - if its the difference between accuracy and approximations i prefer the charts.

[quote name='ped' timestamp='1497626934' post='3319636'] I suppose if I was[i] told[/i] stories about him I'd probably ignore them. However if I had [i]first hand experience[/i] of his attitude I'd be put right off. I am the latter. [/quote] Yeah I understand your position - I guess their lawyers are pursuing aggressively any potential sales outlet for unlicensed knock offs. Unfortunately, as you can see from some of the responses, some people just don't get the concept of a company protecting its products and legitimate customers - although Rickenbacker maybe unique in going after the secondhand market - you can only speculate but it seems possible their sales and finances were being badly affected. I am guessing this is all Fender's fault because people have got used to being able to buy 'knock off' Fenders in a range of prices and Fender has seemingly not been bothered about protecting its brand or customers' interests - until it was too late a few years back, when courts didn't back them. Lawyers representing other manufacturers have also gone aggressively after people (usually retailers) selling knock offs, particularly if they are being passed off as genuine instruments (even Fender have done or threatened this). It doesn't affect my attitude to buying - for instance I found some of the Musicman forum stuff 10 years or so ago pretty unpalatable (although it should be said that most people involved were behaving like complete twats) - however having been a big fan of their basses since the 70s, would a few posts on a forum between people who should know better bother me - well the answer is not at all. And in my book, Rickenbackers are cool basses, warts and all, in the same way as any other professional level instrument.

[quote name='Quatschmacher' timestamp='1497636379' post='3319731'] Unfortunately, because of my need for a SLO Special neck, I'm unlikely to find one in UK stock so buying sight unseen is my only option. [/quote] I guess so - however you could try a US Sterling as the neck dimensions are very similar - has one more fret and a sculpted heel/5 bolt neck plate compared with the SLO Special's standard Stingray pattern.* * doh!! I just re-read your original thread and you already have a Sterling!

[quote name='Cuzzie' timestamp='1497445938' post='3318208'] Agreed Same your strings, amps, cabs, pedals etc. [/quote] Agreed also. I find it quite surprising the number of musicians who moan about CEOs of smaller volume manufacturers - I think three companies have already been mentioned in this thread. I would use the analogy of my local chip shop where, if I took issue with the way the owner cooks his fish and chips I would expect the verbal equivalent of a black eye or worse - there are musicians around who think they know more about how to run a company and its products than the CEO - easy to have a view but you haven't got the full picture when you aren't responsible for the company and its financial viability!!

I have ordered a number of MM basses sight unseen (as indeed most instruments would be regardless of manufacturer if you want specific colours and options) - they have always matched my needs perfectly - indeed I still have them. I would have no worry about doing it again - I would be as confident of getting what I wanted as any other manufacturer, indeed probably more so than many others. It seems Andertons either do or will soon be stocking lots of you want to try them, anyway. I think we just have to accept that all high quality American made instruments are now significantly more expensive than they were a couple of years or even more recently than that.

I have a Bongo 5HH(p) and a Stingray 4HH and agree slapping (the popping) is not quite as easy as on the H models which are quite intuitive. That said if you work on the position you do this it is quite straightforward - just needs a bit more playing accuracy than using the H models - this is easier said than done changing from finger style to slap mid song. It's not unique to the Bongo - Marcus Miller and Will Lee use neck pick up covers - presumably to guide them to the right positions - and these guys are at the top of their game!! Another way with the Bongo is to lower the neck pick up - as you know the pick ups are very hot having neodymium magnets - when I first got my Bongo (I am the third owner) the neck pick up was flush with the pickguard - raising it did not alter the sound massively so you could try this. Another alternative is to look for a HS model, which will give more room between the neck and pick up. If you go your suggested route, then you could get a pick guard via Strings and Things or from MMs supplier in the US - Chandler - who make both the standard ones and some very cool variants. If you do go the modification route just remember the Bongo is an extensively 'engineered' bass so moving the pick up may affect the blended pick up sound, neck soloed sound and the EQ interaction with those somewhat - may be good or bad - who knows but I guess if it was better Musicman would have done it in the first place. I'd be curious to know the solution you end up with.