drTStingray

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1502109826' post='3349338'] I think you completely missed the point I made in the OP...... When I'm talking about augmenting what I really mean is using your guitar knowledge to play bass better (eg if you know a sus4 chord will sound good, why not build a riif on the 3rd/4th, or if you think an add 9 chord works in that song play a 2nd etc) [/quote] Apologies for editing your reply. I don't think we're a million miles away and I probably agree with your last para. What I'm saying is many bass players get to the same point by a different route (eg learning walking bass lines - which often have far more passing tones than the guitarist will play) - and then scales and modes - for instance the dominant seventh chord is based around the mixolidian mode. Whilst a rythmn guitarist will focus on chords for obvious reasons a bass player will focus on single notes and probably root ones often. The reason for listing stuff in order in my post was that is the exact route I've followed - for instance I learned Teen Town over a period without even thinking about the 13th chords it's constructed around - I started looking into that later once I could play the bass part as I was curious how Marcus Miller and Victor Wooton solo around it. Similarly Sir Duke by Stevie Wonder where there's a part of a diminished scale played - which led me to experiment with the scale over the whole bass - which then helps me if I get a diminished to play. This is largely because my attention span on theory is not long so it suits me to dip in and out when it suits me - and also to follow up bass parts I've learned by understanding a bit of the theory. If you gave me a guitar to play I couldn't play a diminished chord straight off but I could play the scale in any key in any position on the bass. I guess we are all different!!!

[quote name='oldbass' timestamp='1502032735' post='3348856'] Was working at the Wickham Festival in Hants last nite (media drone!) and as always I'm keen to "assess" the bass tone for a couple of bands...well the two mid evening bands played P's and to say they sounded bloated and indistinct would be an understatement....why do we bother discussing this and that piece of gear etc. Maybe we should discuss individual sound guys....ha [/quote] Funny you should say that - it was one of the main reasons I fell out of love with the P bass in the early 70s - modern amplification has helped a lot though. I think you'll find that's the main reason why basses like Alembics, Musicman and all the others were invented (I.e. active basses).

[quote name='bonzodog' timestamp='1501923468' post='3348215'] I am a self taught bassist/guitarist. Spent my youth playing in originals bands and after a long break i am now in my 40s playing in a covers band. In all bands I've never needed to learn much theory and especially now I just learn the bassline to the song we are covering. Kids are a bit older now and wife is always out so I decided to go back to basics and learn a load of scales, dorian, locrian etc Wow...what a revelation. I have never enjoyed playing bass this much and can hardly put it down. Stick my earphones into my amp linked up to you tube for some jamming backing tracks in a chosen key and I'm in heaven. Noodling for hours!! Anyone else gone back to learning scales many years after picking up the bass? [/quote] Excellent - well done - learning scales is excellent and will give you a number of skills - not least articulation over a scale and also, if you practice them gradually at speed, being able to play more quickly. I always return to scales, modes and arpeggios when I run out of inspiration - it normally gets the inspiration going again!!

I've been playing for around 45 years and have never specifically learned chord tones. However I usually am able to identify what chords other band members are playing from my knowledge learnt from, probably in order:- 1) learning thousands of bass parts for songs ranging in complexity from very simple to reasonably complicated. 2) learning all the notes on the fretboard and how to play phrases in different positions 2) learning bass parts played by favourite bass players 3) learning solos played by favourite bass players 4) having a very broad musical taste and listening to a very wide range of music 5) learning scales 6) learning modes 7) learning argeggios 8) along the way figuring out diatonic harmony and playing double stops or three notes chords 9) along the way becoming accustomed to chord tones like 7th, 9th, 13th, diminished, half diminished etc I think there is quite a misnomer that the bass guitar is a subset of a 6 string guitar - this is as wrong as saying a double bass is a sub set of a cello or violin - apart from the physical similarities their function is quite different - in the case of guitar v bass guitar the only similarity is theyre strung instruments and can be held the same way - the music played on them is completely different, requiring a different mind set to play ensemble. I have been told several times during my playing years that bass players can't be any good unless they can play guitar - I'm afraid that's nonsense. Learning chord tones per se can broaden a bass player's ability - however I wouldn't see it as a pre requisite - it can be very helpful in jazz when comping with a piano player in the band as seeing/hearing their chords can help in choosing notes on the bass. If you're going to do things on the fly it's also v important to know the effect playing say a 3rd note against the root chord is - because it will colour the music in a certain way (used quite often in Abba - an example is Dancing Queen). Otherwise the bass will probably play the root note (the safe option). The octave you play that in will have a marked impact on the sound though.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1501918034' post='3348153'] Standard internet way of thinking these days, if someone asks if it is vital to do something and lots of people say no, those that do whatever it is take that as they are in the wrong. Is it vital? No, is it wrong for those that do? No. [/quote] Some of us like to do it, are able to do it (owing to equipment choice and technique), and think it makes their band sound better - the fact that band members, punters and producers also like it suggests those of us that do are certainly not wrong. However if you get told by a whole stream of people that they don't bother, ergo it doesn't matter, it's quite natural to get a bit irritated. A lot of us spend a fortune on bass gear, for lots of reasons but more often than not in search of the elusive perfect sound (s). Those that don't are fine - each to their own. But it doesn't mean bass sound doesn't matter within a song or piece - rather it means they don't think it does. There's also nothing wrong with doing your own interpretation of a cover either. Anyone saying bass sound didn't matter in the 70s, 80s and 90s would have been considered rather strange (even more so if they were a bassist) - just listen to how those songs are mixed compared with now - it seems that some of the attitudes of 60s pop music, as well as the sounds, instruments and mixing have taken over the mainstream over the last decade and a half.

[quote name='Jakester' timestamp='1501839117' post='3347665'] Noone's using mental health as an excuse or stigmatising it. [/quote] Your post is a good clarification. Let's hope not! Or stereotyping black rap artists. Cannabis induced psychosis is an interesting one - possibly exacerbation of a pre-existing condition rather than actually creating the condition in the first place.

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1501754734' post='3347100'] Now there's a title you didn't expect to read. Kanye cancelled a string of concerts last year after displaying "strained, confused and erratic" behaviour at his concert in Sacramento. He then spent a week in a psychiatric hospital. Lloyds are refusing to cough up on the cancellation costs, on the grounds that the star's excessive use of marijuana had led to this behaviour. And where do I get this from? The BBC? The NME? Another 3-letter acronym? Nope. The Financial Times, Companies & Markets section. [/quote] Extraordinary that an insurance company should be able to diagnose the cause of mental illness so readily when the medical profession itself is often unable to over someone's lifetime!! Even more tenuous the link between marijuana (as opposed to other class B substances) and mental illness. This wouldn't have anything to do with the fact it'd cost them a lot of money to pay out so they owe it to their shareholders to contest the claim as a matter of course? Whatever next? Insurance companies refusing to pay out on motor insurance claims because someone may have used intoxicating substances in the past (even alcohol)! Some of us may have had quite 'interesting' experiences with insurance companies in the past so this will come as no shock!!

There doesn't seem to be a lot of love for the Rickenbacker on this forum so I can see why a lot of people like this video. However he doesnt appear to have noticed the highest profile user of all, or that Larry Graham is pictured playing one on Thankyoufor etc etc etc. He does say the tone is unique and excellent - something I never realised until I saw someone testing one fairly recently - easily as flexible in tone as a Jazz - much more than a Precision. And some elements of those owe their engineering to prehistoric 1950s also. I also do wish people would learn to pronounce the name properly - Backer as in back door - not barker as in chief barker - or bocker as in knickerbacker (sic) glory!! 😁

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1501538914' post='3345440'] We are a band who cover songs using our own sounds. We sound like us. The Guitarist does change sounds for each song, but he's limited by the guitar he has, the amp and cab he has, and even the make of effects he purchased. [/quote] That's all fine but why shouldn't the bass guitarist do something similar. In fact I think we all possibly do - by varying how we play song to song - I too used to take effects with me but rarely do these days - largely because I can't be bothered and because there's often not enough space to set them up - however I do play Chameleon- which does sound better with envelope than without. I suppose if you wanted to be really accurate you'd play it on a keyboard - I think it sounds good on bass guitar. Is the debate here really along the lines should you use a bass with flexibility in sound or one which doesn't - I guess there's no right answer - each to their own I guess - I know what I prefer!

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1501539147' post='3345442'] No. . . . Go around again! [/quote] Aha - Let's Go Round Again - sounds far better on a Stingray...... 😂

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1501152727' post='3342847'] But what tone would you use for a discussion that disappears up its own fundament(al)? [/quote] One which is better than simply adequate - mind you if it disappeared up its own fundamental it could be considered on a par with the semi-inaudible background bass heard on some modern mixes.

[quote name='Rich' timestamp='1501099555' post='3342565'] here's the thing: my main motivation for using different sounds to try to emulate the original is that [u]I want to[/u]. I like the whole tone-shaping process, and yes this probably makes me a bit of a nerd but I don't care [/quote] I think tone is all part of being a musician, be it a good, average or poor one. I think most of us strive to be above average at least, if not much better than that. Not worrying about tone and how the bass contributes (in the case of a cover song, contributed) to the tone and feel of the song to me is accepting approximation which may spoil some listener's experience. Each to their own view but I don't subscribe to the view that the bass sound is not important to a piece - it's actually quite fundamental in my view. Level 42 without a Prophet 5 or something which can emulate it pretty accurately, for me as a fan of their music, would be a washout. As would Mark King playing a Precision, in terms of the affect on the sound of the band. I think it all depends, as a musician, how much you accept approximations. I've played in bands where arrangements of songs have been performed which miss out fundamental hooks (note hooks can be bass hooks), use inaccurate and less effective chord voicings etc etc. No doubt the band sounded competent but is this good musicianship - depends on your viewpoint but my view is it's not. My view is you need to have a bass which has a range of potential sounds as well as being a reasonably flexible and skilled musician to do cover work well.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1501093819' post='3342492'] EQ alters the sound that has been captured by the pickup(s). Therefore it is an effect. [/quote] Not if they are set at neutral - beyond that they can cut and boost. Are passive tone controls effects? This could be taken to the nth degree. The pick up design and state, the electronic component condition (eg capacitors), height of pick ups, volume control, strength and position of plucking etc all change the sound - they could all be classed as effects. I view effects as outboard devices changing the signal significantly such as a distortion/drive, chorus, delay, flanger, phaser etc etc. The idea that onboard EQ is an effect, to me, is a non standard viewpoint. Unless you're talking external EQ unit and even then I wonder.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1501088564' post='3342430'] EQ is an effect. Therefore they are the same. [/quote] Sorry to muscle in on Blue's debate here but I fundamentally disagree. On board EQ is just a more efficient and comprehensive version of a single tone control. Think hi fi rather than Dansette (60s/70s teens will particularly get this analogy). Talking of effects and distortion effect, I have played a Cliff and the Shadows song from the very early 60s which has distortion on the bass in a gig and got virtually the same effect playing my classic Stingray hard, with the treble turned up against full bass on the guitar's EQ, through my MarkBass set up with no pedals!! I was well impressed as was the band. The remainder of the set was thumpy but defined (like a 60s recorded P bass) played over the neck joint - moving bridge wards occassionally for extra definition.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1501061657' post='3342119'] Some of the songs in your list were recorded on a P bass so no onboard EQ and only 1 pickup on the original. If you are saying that not copying the tone on the record makes your playing just adequate then I'd strongly disagree. As I said before, you can play every song with a different tone if you want to, but that isn't necessary. It's your playing that will make or break the song and make you a good or just adequate player. [/quote] I agree and disagree with these points - yes your playing can make a massive difference but not all of it. I know some of the songs were recorded on a P and almost deliberately inserted them - some most definitely weren't!! A recorded P bass from the 60s often sounds nothing like a P bass live - by the 70s they were putting things like Alembic preamps in front of them in the studio to get them to sound good on hi fi stereos at home. The biggest area I disagree on is that the same (ish) tone suits all songs on bass. It most certainly doesn't unless the bass part and it's sound and presence in the mix on the record renders it a backing/support instrument. This is rarely the case in 70s/80s music with any R and B influence where the bass in a fundamental part. Playing All Right Now or Le Freak on a J is about as wrong for me as playing the sax solo on careless whisper or baker st on a synthesiser or guitar. It would sound adequate - and different enough to maybe make it less enjoyable. Recent (ish) performances by Jamiroquay and Brand New Heavies (despite both bass players ranking amongst my most revered and favourite) were marred by the bass sounds being less prominent than I would view as essential to their music - in studio these guys sound great as well - time to crack out the active basses to get the 80s/90s effect???

Simple answer - not as many around as Stingrays and those who have them don't sell them. An alternative is a 92 to 08 SR5. Same electronics and neck as the ST5 - slightly bigger body and different pickguard. Lots of these around and it's possible to find 8.5 lbs ones - more usually 10 lbs. These are awesome basses - I have an 03 SR5 in natural - a little heavy but an absolute tone monster - the most resonant body of any bass I've played. Best of luck searching for an ST5 - you could always order a new one - if it was me I'd go for an HS - adding the single coil to the single pick up Sterling sound adds significant bottom end and warmth to the sound when desired, gives a single coil option and you still get the single humbucker Magic as well when wanted.

If your cover band is anything like the ones I play in youll require a range of sounds and techniques. I'll give a couple of examples - All Right Now - Free; Dock of the Bay - Otis Redding; We Are Family - Sister Sledge; Black Knight - Deep Purple; Smooth Operator - Sade; Need You Now - Lady Antebellum I would say anyone with decent technique and a professional level bass and amp/cab can pull these off adequately. However to be more than adequate you will need possibly a little more from the bass in your hands - in my experience On board EQ 2 pick ups I use a Stingray HH for this type of thing because it's versatile enough, coupled with technique to sound good on all of these. I can range from a scooped Mark King sound through to mid heavy staccato to round and fat bass to thinner legato sound as needed. You could do all of this on a Precision but for those who have heard people play All Right Now on either a P or J it is adequate rather than anything else. Add some effects it may be better. It is possible all of it could be played on an EB3 - the rock would definitely sound good - not sure about the rest. A Rickenbacker and Jazz are also good all rounders. I find the Stingray the winner and the coil selector switch and mid range control are the main ways to get the variations needed to enhance your own technique to get the range which is desirable.

[quote name='doonaboon' timestamp='1500652665' post='3339424'] Was being tongue in cheek with the 'theory' comment, just to be clear! [/quote] It's pretty straightforward to be honest. E natural minor (aeolian mode) has a flat 3rd note (G), flat 6th note (C) and flat 7th note (D) E dominant 7th has the colourful notes G# (3rd) and D (flat 7th) as well as an E. The mode around this is called mixolydian (sometimes called blues scale) - it also appears a lot in jazz and funk. Jean Genie is in the first of these - probably!!! But the use of dominant 7ths often is possibly why the G# sounds reasonable to us as well - as stated by others theory is theory - useful to know in some situations but it is theory so not worth getting too hung up on!!

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1500579160' post='3338905'] They (i.e. we) would commonly have known it was GAG not G#AG# because they (i.e. we) knew it came from the blues in a fairly clear sequence ... ... and probably further back than that but always a flattened third. But, of course, Bowie and the band in his/their brilliance do something new with it. [/quote] I couldn't agree more - to be honest I was a very heavy consumer of all things blues/blues rock from about 68 onwards - items in this 1 b3 4 b3 riff idiom are rife eg Canned Heat - On the Road Again Ten Years After - Help Me Little Red Rooster - Rolling Stones Spirit in the Sky - Norman Greenbaum http://youtu.be/tOuj6att1UY As you say all borrowed from the earlier blues guys and probably before that. I didn't discover the earlier people until a little later, particularly wondering who these writers like Willie Dixon were whose names appeared as the writing credit on bands ranging from Cream to Led Zeppelin to Fleetwood Mac etc. Even things like Fever - Peggy Lee have the b3 in the bass riff (this is a nice thing to play on bass guitar.......so long as the drummer doesn't attempt to turn it into a drum solo!! http://youtu.be/RI5n-ae01Xk I was also mightily impressed by Jean Genie - even more so when playing it slightly later on bass and realising the fusion of straight blues riff with the rock take on the Choruses - and those high octave triplet Es towards the end of the solos - quite tricky to nail. And I guess the other thing here is we bass players seem to have difficulty hearing the difference between two adjacent semi-tones here - I think as ET has said - those of us who came up in the blues rock era would have known it as b3 instinctively - until that Sweet song!!! E Natural minor scale I think.

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1500495836' post='3338297'] Is that Dunbar on drums after Woodmansey was sacked? [/quote] Aynsley?? Ive learned something from this thread - back in the early 70s anyone suggesting playing EEE G#AG# E etc etc would have been considered in the same light as someone insisting on having fish djou rather than liquor with their pie and mash - basically wrong!! However having tried it I'm amazed that it sounds ok and can see why people might - especially if they're very acquainted with the Sweet song. The other thing is the early jump to B on the bass - Mr Boulder said in a BGM or BP interview many years ago that it was a cock up but Bowie liked it - having now watched the video of the Spiders from Mars attached, I do wonder given the speed that everything was recorded whether he Bowie didn't want to or wasn't allowed to fix the error. Having heard it off and on for 45+ years I'm now getting used to it 👍

[quote name='OddBass65' timestamp='1500479386' post='3338134'] Not watched the whole episode yet, as I'm a couple of seasons behind.......... [/quote] I quite like Ed Sheeran having heard a lot of his music on the radio and watched his consummate performance on tv at Glastonbury. I've also been interested in reading about Game of Thrones in this thread having had several people I know wax lyrical about it - I now know why I've never stumbled across it because I'm a Freeview person as well - don't like those Sky and whatever else people - smacks too much of gross capitalism in its grossest, non PC in the 60s/70s, sense to me 😉 😁 As you will guess or know I'm of the 60s, 70s era so to me, a couple of seasons behind = winter 2016-17 - am I right or have I got this totally wrong??! 🤔

I personally think changing make of bass, and thus altering the sound has not been a change for the better. Their earlier stuff was truly thunderous.

I just watched it again, repeated on bbc1. It's a fabulous performance and totally got the whole crowd going. It gets better the further it progresses. You've got to hand it to the guy, a whole string of instantly recognisable pop songs and great stage craft. Yes loopers have been used before, but so have fuzz pedals, wah wah pedals and even two guitar, bass and drums bands. I think he nailed it and having watched it twice can see exactly why he didn't use a band. I was very impressed that whole tracts of people in the audience were even singing along with the rap lyrics - the guy and his music are truly popular.

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1498901868' post='3327838'] So not really a good example of his performance. [/quote] I agree but the point is even in such dire circumstances the solidity, groove and sound of the bass is still a central contribution to the song. I'm still mesmerised by his playing and sound even in that situation, sad though it is based on what we know now. In-built and unique funk machine.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1498858535' post='3327673'] I'm sure someone here will have seen Bernard live? [/quote] I really kick myself but I was gigging in 1979 when they played, and my former wife and most of my mates saw them - infuriating!! Here's a bit of Mr Edwards' magic with Chic. Lovely fat bass sound - my absolute bass playing idol. http://youtu.be/_lx2NUmxTQ0