peteb

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460292128' post='3024368'] A [i]good [/i]drummer..? Yes, I would. [/quote] But would he really be a good drummer or merely a Jack of all trades, equally unconvincing in all genres??

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460286048' post='3024318'] ... and I would claim that a good drummer is one able to play all styles at all appropriate levels. [/quote] Really?? Would you expect a drummer who plays in a small jazz ensemble to be equally convincing in a Metallica tribute??

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1460287992' post='3024341'] A good drummer is on who uses his ears and understands that he is playing in a band. [/quote] I would have thought that applied to all musicians.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1460269721' post='3024123'] As you say Pete, and it's the key point, you check with the landlord that it will be acceptable and don't play there if it isn't. Appropriate volume. Again. There's no point in turning up to play the gig and arguing all night with the landlord that "It has to be loud." If he is going to lose his pub license due to antisocial noise, you're not going to be asked back. Do these big name, big hitter, drummers ever play in their local pubs? I know plenty of drummers who say there is no point in playing certain venues as they will just be too loud for them. I'm sure they are quite capable of playing quietly, you can't play loudly all night. Without quiet sections everything is the same volume and you miss about 99% of what music is all about. [/quote] There is a problem in that you often get landlords who come into the business as music fans and want to promote live music, but their pubs are just not suited to it i.e. too small or a funny shaped room or (most importantly) noise problems with neighbours. IME it is best to just avoid those places like the plaque. Appropriate volume is the key thing and unfortunately you will just not be able to play at an appropriate volume at these gigs. I am sure that many of the big name, big hitter, drummers will play the occasional bar gig or small club. After all I know that top bass player Leland Sklar says that he does and I assume that he will be playing these gigs with a drummer! However, you can bet it won’t be at the type of pub described above. No one wants to see a band who are excessively or uncomfortably loud. And as far as drummers go, there is nothing worse than playing with one with no technique and who can’t balance out the way he plays i.e. bashes his cymbals so loud to leave your ears ringing for days afterwards but you can’t hear his bass drum. All good musicians should be able to play with a good command of dynamics, but to get a full dynamic range you have to be reasonably loud to start with. Bear in mind that a 100 piece symphony orchestra will utilise a fuller range of dynamics than you will find with any musical ensemble, but they will be way louder than any rock band! My main point is that there seems to be a general opinion on Basschat that a good drummer is a quiet drummer, and that is not the case…

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460243295' post='3024053'] A misunderstanding here, I think. By 'reigning in', I mean from a volume point of view, not in intensity of performance. I, too, play rock, amongst other styles; I had, for weddings and the like in smallish restaurant halls, a set of elasticated cotton 'shower hats' which could slip over the toms and snare, cutting down the volume enormously, but retaining a pretty decent 'crack' when using rim-shots. Brushes, hot-rods, even mallets... they all help to give the tone required, in any circumstances. How many TV shows are to be seen with a drummer belting away like billy-o, but muted by the pads on the drums and cymbals..? Big players, playing big venues, can go full-tilt; when they play smaller places, they play the same way, but quieter. I maintain, stubbornly, that rock does not [i]have [/i]to be loud. Intense, yes, exciting, pulsing, hard-driven... All of that and more, but not [i]necessarily [/i]loud. Play as you wish, and good for you, but please don't tell me it can't be done. It can; all good drummers know how to, and do so. [/quote] A mate of mine (not an excessively loud drummer by any means) once said that he always needs to be playing loud enough so that ‘everyone can feel the backbeat’. Another mate who has been a pro for 30 years with a decent CV (including one really famous singer) and a well-known local drum teacher joined a decent paying function band and found that he could not play quiet enough for many of the gigs they did. His solution was to buy an electronic kit, which he hated but at least he could turn down to an acceptable level. Obviously there are some compromises that you have to make when playing smaller gigs and no one wants an excessively loud drummer. But you certainly don't want to compromise too much. The audience will notice and you will sound poor compared to better bands on the circuit who stick to their guns. Also, you have to accept that a drum will actually sound better if it is hit harder! Why do you think that John Bonham is still being sampled to this day and and is used as a reference for so many drum sounds? I remember an old interview with Rod Morgenstein where he talked about an early rock session he played where a producer was trying to get him to play less notes on the snare but to hit it harder. This was alien to Morgenstein, who came from a fusion background, so the producer got him to play two different grooves over the same track; one in his normal style with lots of grace notes and one playing harder but with fewer hits on the snare. The producer then got him to listen to the two different takes and see which one worked better. As a result Morgenstein said that he rethought his approach to playing rock music and cultivated a more Bonhamesque feel, playing less and hitting harder!

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460224613' post='3023878'] Those big names (and they are all truly great...) won't be playing loud (I mean, not [i]overly [/i]loud...) when they're playing pubs or smaller venues, whatever the style. They know how to get what's required from the kit at the volume and dynamic that the venue needs; that's [i]why [/i]they're great. Yes, in an outdoor festival, or a stadium gig, or even the Woodstick halls, the volume can go up; they're miced up, too, for the PA, but also for recording.the event. In such a venue, I play louder,too; that's not a problem. When playing pubs and clubs, however, one plays rock 'reigned in'. There is only one reason why some drummers don't, and that's because they can't. It's a skill, it's not magic, just ordinary, good, solid, technical ability that can, and should, be learned and applied. If not, then I maintain the term 'lumberjack', not 'drummer'. [/quote] I’m sorry but I don’t believe for a second that Kenny Aronoff would ever go out and play a rock gig in public (in a club or wherever) at anything less than full pelt. After all, he has a reputation to uphold. And so have I, although obviously to a far far lesser degree. No rock band that I have been in would expect a drummer to ‘reign in’ their playing – it’s full beans or nothing! Frankly I would not go and see a band that would do that. Whenever we take a pub gig I always ask the landlord if he has any serious noise issues and if his crowd want to see a pretty loud rock band. Obviously there are some gigs that we can’t do but we still get plenty of work and draw a healthy crowd, mainly because they know that we will never ‘reign in’ a performance!

I’m going to go against the grain and say that good [b][i]rock[/i][/b] drummers tend to be loud. That’s just the way it is! Go on YouTube and look at all the top guys who get all the big gigs and you will see that in addition to being great technicians they are all pretty loud. Kenny Aronoff (an orchestrally trained percussionist) is a monster, as is Josh Freese, etc. Even someone like Gregg Bissonette isn’t what you would call quiet. I want to play with drummers who have good time, feel and (yes) power. Of course a lot of them are pretty loud, which is why I went and got proper hearing protection. A lot of the worse drummers I have played with have been some of the quietest.

From what I remember, bands were generally louder years ago – for one thing people seemed less concerned about damaging their hearing! Drums haven’t changed much since the 70s and guitarists tended to use valve heads and 412s, while we used 100w and then 200w amps with the master volume turned up to 9 (unless of course you could afford an early SVT or Acoustic rig). Then came the 80s and we all started using separate preamps and 500w PA poweramps in racks that that we could barely lift. Not to mention that every band had to carry around piles of multiple huge PA speakers and racks of amps, which have now been replaced by a couple of small boxes that do a far better job.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1460068742' post='3022407'] Interesting over here in the States the bar owners don't care if your to loud or too quiet. They're only concerned about whether or not they're selling enough alcohol. Blue [/quote] If only that was the case here...!

It should be noted that bars in Europe are probably closer to the States rather than the UK - bar bands generally play three or four hour shows over three sets.

[quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1459789867' post='3019667'] Oh, there are too many to list: Tony Levin on Red Rain, Pino on Tear Your Playhouse Down (although pretty much anything these guys play on is amazing to my ears); the usual suspects really. But someone who, IMO, doesn't get enough kudos is Roscoe Beck. The walking line on this track, with its skips and ghost notes, is just lovely and then there's the two-handed, chordal stuff that starts under the guitar solo @2:00 onwards. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8itrVCVrtNM&list=PLXYKzslrntw3LmWYDEBWLxVt8yb-7M9WP[/media] [/quote] I've seen so many ace bass players who were all great in different ways, but one who does stand out was seeing Roscoe Beck live with Robben Ford. I had never even realised that he was playing the two handed comping stuff until I saw him do it live (I had assumed it was an organ in the record) - stunning player...!

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1459378094' post='3016069'] The old I have a job, so I'm better than you full time musicians. Lame. Blue [/quote] I don't think that he means that at all. Obviously, if you don't rely on gigging to pay the rent then you can afford to be choosier about what projects you do. However, getting paid does put a definite value on any musical endeavour. Of course it is not the only value, or even (necessarily) the most important one, but if someone is prepared to pay you to perform then there is a certain validation whereas if you never get out of the bedroom / rehearsal studio then who is to say objectively that what you are doing is any good or not.

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1459318451' post='3015336'] Bands, especially originals bands are really a case of how much your prepared to compromise to make it work... If every member sticks rigidly to what they want then the band will never work. I am a case in point as as I absolutely refuse to be told what to play under any circumstances... hence I am currently bandless [/quote] You see I’m the complete opposite – people ring me up and ask me to play bass on their projects and if I think it will be fun / good and I have the time then I say yes! Money is nice but not the most important thing and I don’t care if it is original material or covers. I wouldn’t consider anything where they want me to be a completely different type of player but beyond that I can come up with my own basslines or they can tell me exactly what to play (as long as it is going to work). [quote name='blue' timestamp='1459312584' post='3015328'] If I made you think that it's solely about money I apologize. There is nothing about performing, even at the bar band that leaves me cold. To me there is nothing more fulfilling than the fun and opportunity to play rock and roll and getting paid.It's not all there is to it but it's a big part of it. I've invested a life time to this and I'm not giving it away. I mean even for originals bands I would think you'd get more from hearing the applause from a crowd after one if your originals is a bigger thrill than playing it alone in the bedroom. Blue [/quote] Absolutely, getting to play rock and roll with a decent band in front of an audience is one of the things I live for. Getting paid is good, but I’m quite excited about the possibility of putting together a one-off scratch band with a great guitar player mate of mine, just to be the house band for a new blues jam night. No money in it but just the chance to play with some friends who haven’t played together for a while in a different context…

We've had this debate on BC many times before and unlike others here I would say that there is a small but noticeable (to you) difference and you will get a little more sustain. Whether that is what you want is another matter! I have changed the bridge on every Fender that I have ever had, with the exception of the P bass I currently own whose previous owner saved me the trouble and kindly fitted a badass before I got it...!

Where I Find My Heaven - Gigolo Aunts Drops of Jupiter - Train Semi Charmed Life - Third Eye Blind Latter two one hit wonders only in this country...

[quote name='seashell' timestamp='1457899647' post='3002858'] I always rather liked this. And she seemed like a really nice person. I too wonder what happened to her. [/quote] Not a lot is the short answer (local girl from around this neck of the woods), However, the guy who wrote Sleeping Satellite has had a bit of success (most notably producing and writing for Corinne Bailey Rae).

Gin Blossoms - Hey Jealousy

I always thought that Oasis were great - a good rowdy rock n'roll band with plenty of energy and loads of great tunes! Sure, some of them were a bit derivative and they were not the greatest players but so what? The last band in this country to inspire loads of kids to pick up a guitar, all good in my book.

Can't help thinking that one man's set of meatheads is another man's idea of a great rock and roll crowd...!

[quote name='neilmurraybass' timestamp='1457432071' post='2998382'] I can see I'll have to do a note-for-note demonstration! Neil [/quote] Now that would be brilliant...! I have been listening to that bassline for pretty much as long as I have been playing bass - it's pretty much part of my musical DNA! I have played various versions of FFYL in a number of bands, but I am not convinced that I have ever managed to get your version 100% right. It would be fascinating to see exactly what you played, especially with you actually showing us how you did it.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1457228874' post='2996600'] Excellent point, good money making opportunities are never advertised to the general public. Blue [/quote] It's not just about money, it could just be a band that is going to play pubs twice a month for fun! But the point remains that IME the best bands rarely advertise in this way, but tend to recruit thru recommendations from a network of their musician mates and friends of friends, etc.

I think that all four of the adverts in the OP are fine – all clear and realistic in what they are looking for and potentially good opportunities (depending on how good they are) for a suitable candidate. Personally, I would not consider Band 1 at the moment as they are not going to play out but if I was too busy in my day job to commit to regular gigging and wanting to keep my hand in, or if I was new to an area and wanting to make connections then they might be ideal. Again, I would have no interest in Band 4 (nor would they be interested in me) but it may well be a perfectly viable band for someone into that type of thing. However, I kinda think that this is missing the point. If any band has to resort to putting out adverts for musicians that they don’t know, then it is a pretty good indication that they are not plugged into the local circuit and do not have the connections with the local good players (or are not good enough to attract the guys who normally get the better gigs). Most good bands recruit from recommendations from a network of established players who all either know each other or know of each other.

No one has mentioned Oasis - first song on Morning Glory quoting a Gary Glitter song...!