peteb

I hate the damn things - looks, sound and everything even though they have been used on some of my favourite records! A mate of mine has one, which must be one of the worst 'expensive' basses I've ever played... Marmite basses indeed...

JT's analysis above is about right but, as ever, he should remember that he lives in a pretty affluent part of the country. Decent pub gigs around here will pay £200 (smaller pubs may pay a little less)...

I think that we are going round in circles here. There will always be a market for live music but it will be difficult for the pub rock scene (and the pub trade in general) until any improvement in the economy starts to trickle down to working people. And you certainly can’t legislate to stop bands who really should not be playing in public getting gigs if they are prepared to do so for nothing and naïve landlords are prepared to book them…

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397595226' post='2425581'] Probably not many compared to a semi-pro band, I played about 20 gigs last year across both bands and about 1/3rd of them in pubs. I recognise your scenarios and am sure it happens but my feeling is that is must surely be self-regulating. A really good band has nothing to fear and a really bad band will not last long. Yes, casual punters may walk into a pub if they hear live music and buy a pint, but they'll also soon leave if the band is no good. If enough people never come back then the pub will stop having bands - paid or not. [/quote] But the trouble is that the casual punter won’t come back. It all undermines the live music scene, making it less sustainable. A half way decent band will still do well locally but building up a following out of town these days is taking a lot more work. [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397595226' post='2425581'] Again, I'm sure that's all correct but I suspect it's symptomatic of bigger things. The music business has changed immensely over recent decades and, as we've discussed many times, music is a much-devalued commodity these days. That's not to say that it's not important to people, more that they've become accustomed to not having to pay very much for it, while having more of it at their fingertips than they can actually listen to in their whole lifetime. PC recording technology and the internet has made it possible for bands to easily put out their music such that the world is now awash with music. Some might be crap but some is fantastic . . . but, hasn't that always been the way? [/quote] It is true that the (original) music scene has changed out of all recognition in the last twenty years – in some ways good but in many ways not so good! It is very difficult to make a living as a musician these days, even some of the people you may think of as reasonably successful are struggling! In contrast, the pub circuit has remained pretty much recognisable as it was ten years ago, but has just gone into a decline as people deal with lower standards of living and getting into the habit of staying in on a Saturday night with a pack of cheap beer and a DVD...

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397590964' post='2425520'] Do you really think people are stupid enough to 'endure terrible performances'? And, as everyone keeps saying, if landlords are only interested in selling beer then they are hardly likely to allow a band to play if it drives away customers - paid or free. This all sounds like sour grapes to me. I can understand why bands that want to earn money with their playing get all upset about other bands that are happy to play for a few free drinks, but that's life. What next, shall we all get upset about how PC technology and the internet is allowing amateur bands to put out their own music, thereby 'undercutting the professionals'? Things might be tough for the aspiring professional musician but calls for increased regulation to restrict things just to give themselves a better chance is tantamount to admitting their own failure. [/quote] Do you play many pub gigs?? There are always punters who are not regular gig goers who will wander in off the street to see some live entertainment. If they see a good band that puts on a decent show they will probably come back for more next week. If the band is terrible they will make a point of not coming back! Landlords who know what they are doing will try and pick and choose their bands and obviously be prepared to pay. However, if you play the pub circuit you will have noticed that in the last ten years there has been an increase in landlords who really don’t know the pub trade at all, yet alone live entertainment (as pointed out by Skank above a while ago). These are the type who tend to be seduced by the idea of getting something for nothing and then will moan about bands emptying pubs! However, I quite agree that increasing regulation is unworkable and, frankly, a touch ridiculous…

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1397584697' post='2425435'] Well, I understand you are all for a free market and limited legislation ..and I broadly agree, but sometimes people take it too far... as the bankers did, and the MP's did, etc etc, so yes, sometimes you can't trust all people, all of the time. I mean, why have any sort of law, if that wasn't the case..?? In this case, IMO, the relaxing of the license law has lead to a bit of a mess and 'free' for all. and it doesn't benefit musicians..IMO..which is what we care about [/quote] I am not too sure that you can really equate the abuses of the banking sector wrecking the economy with too many cr*p bands playing in too many cr*p bars destabilising the pub rock market…! It’s the poor people that to pubs that put these type of bands on that I feel sorry for. Too many casual punters have had to endure terrible performances from bands that are not good enough to get paid. Hardly encourages them to support live music does it? However, the real reason that fees have not gone up in 15 years is because pubs are generally struggling. If they were full and making money, landlords would be paying more to compete for the best bands like they were 15 years ago…

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397487525' post='2424390'] Fair point. There must be a better word for someone who won't get out of bed unless they're being paid. [/quote] "Professional"? Or maybe someone with a bit if pride who demands to be paid for providing a service that other parties are making money from??

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1397114793' post='2420688'] In my own personal experience individual musical ability doesn't necessarily mean that you can play competently as a band. I had a short stint as bassist in a covers band where everyone was at least competent and the two guitarists and singer were very good musicians, but as a band it never seemed to me to come together. The individual ability was there. The songs being covers were most definitely there, but the band performance was not. Certainly not in the same way that my originals band was tight, organised and able to play our way out of nearly any musical catastrophe at a gig, despite have a much lower standard overall of musical ability. [/quote] It is one thing to know a bit of theory and being able to play impressive stuff in your bedroom, but if you can’t play together with other musicians in a band then you are not what I would call a competent musician – or at least not in the context of popular beat combos so prevalent in the past 50 years or so! It could be that your originals band were better all round players than your more flashy covers band. You do not necessarily have to be a technically amazing player to play in a great band and you don’t need to be Jaco to play in AC/DC (insert other similar example of a band in a genre of your choice here)! You can be a good bass player by doing the simple things well, having a bit of feel and knowing how to lock in with a drummer (you still need to know what a f**kin scale is though)…

[quote name='BobVbass' timestamp='1397122022' post='2420800'] yes very true but then there's the "I wonder what x type of bass is like?" and you can never tell just by playing in a shop, so I'll buy one maybe like it and keep it (yeah ok rarely) or move it on when I know - doesn't stop me carrying on learning and gigging my Lakland P [/quote] But while you wondering what this new bass is like and spending time (& money of course) buying and then selling it, you could have been concentrating on improving as a player! You already have a perfectly good instrument that you need to do that, your Lakland...

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1397119925' post='2420762'] At the risk of sounding controversial (no, not you, Rob!), I think a lot of people think they can buy themselves better. If they don't like what is happening on one piece of kit, the assumption is that the solution is different kit rather than more practising. I know a guy who used to buy and sell guitars at an inordinate rate and spent the rest of his time adjusting actions, changing strings etc etc. The fundamental fact was that he was a mediocre guitarist who, had he sepodn more time practising instead of fiddling about on the periphery of guitar playing, could have been a lot better. Like Jake, my Wal (my only real working bass since then (a couple of other basses had less than a handful of outings in that time)) was bought in 1986, my double bass is now around 4 years old and isn't going anywhere soon. They both sound like basses to me and sound great. Even my amps last an age. I have had 7 since I started playing in 1980 and one of them was only replaced because it was nicked. I think there is too much nonsense attached to the gear and not enough emphasis on the music. [/quote] You are, of course, completely right! I would suggest that anyone wanting to become a musician should get the best quality instrument they can afford that suits their style of music, then learn how to play the thing! I think that it is a good idea to have a spare, but anything beyond that is just icing on the cake and can be an expensive distraction…

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1397111024' post='2420665'] you saying i should wear the wedding dress AND the tiara? [/quote] Definitely go with the tiara!

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1397079515' post='2420546'] Are you seriously equating knowledge of music theory to playing competence? Well I guess that would make it easy for venues to find 'quality' bands - just insist on seeing their grade certificates before booking them, along with their PAT certificates, liability insurance certificates, passports . . . . [/quote] No, you are completely misunderstanding me. I am not the slightest bit interested in the various credentials that you quote above and you certainly do not need to have passed graded musical exams to be a competent rock / pop musician (quite the opposite in some cases)! However, there are limits and if you don’t know what a scale is the chances are you are pretty cr*p…

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1397046629' post='2420050'] Thing is, Pete, you and a sizeable minority here are in 'proper' working pro or semi-pro bands. You've paid your dues and you can legitimately command a 'proper' fee. I suspect there are a greater number of hobbyists here (like myself) who are operating in an entirely different league. They probably play the venues you avoid. Some of these hobbyist bands expect to get paid the same money as you. Others do (inc myself) do not. [/quote] By the way, ‘You speak for yourself sunshine’ was supposed to be delivered in an Eric Morecambe voice and probably should have been accompanied by a smiley! You are right that there is an element of having paid dues. You can see that I think that there is a problem that some people here think that it doesn’t matter if they know what a simple scale is, yet are prepared to subject innocent punters performing at what can only be described as a gig! This does nothing to encourage said punters to regularly support local gigs in pubs. If you look at it from a Landlord’s perspective – to run a successful music pub you will generally have to put on live music every Friday and Saturday night every week of the year (maybe only Saturdays in January). You do that you would need a roster of maybe 25 to 40 decent bands (each playing 2 or 3 times a year), of which say 10 bands can be relied to pack the place and the rest will draw a sufficient crowd to ensure that you still make some money and tick over. But, of course, it is unlikely that there are going to be 25 local bands of that standard, not to mention that bands do break up or have to cancel for various reasons, etc! Therefore the landlord needs to widen his net and leave a few slots open for bands from outside the area to play. Obviously, the first time a non-local band play no one will know who they are and are unlikely to pack the place out. But, if the pub has a reputation for putting decent bands on there will be a hard core of regulars who will come on spec anyway. Hopefully the band will go down well with the regulars and they will start to build a following in that area and pull more next time they play there. Of course, this requires the landlord to do his homework to get the right bands and the bands to make the most of any positive feedback and to promote the next gig on social media, etc. Now, I might be interested in doing a pub gig 50 miles away (even it costs more in diesel / time to get there) if it potentially opens up a new market and helps to fill up the diary. But I am not prepared to do so for no money – I might as well take a more local gig or just go to the pub to see one of my mate’s bands play! Not to mention that if a landlord is not prepared to invest some money to discover a new band he probably won’t bother to promote the gig in any way! Of course, many landlords will take the easy option and book rubbish local bands who are prepared to play for nothing! These same landlords will be in their empty pub on a Saturday night, moaning that putting on live music is a waste of time and blaming the bands…

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396972770' post='2419314'] Too many of us delude ourselves that we are semi-pros when in truth we are amateurs - that is - 'someone who does something for free because they like it'. At root, most of us are far more interested in playing in front of an audience than we are in delivering that audience. Why this insistence on getting paid if we neglect the business side of things? [/quote] You speak for yourself sunshine! However, you do have a point – there are plenty of bands out there who are incredibly amateurish and have no business playing in public! If they are prepared to play for free then they are putting a value on what is essentially a product they are providing in a commercial environment (i.e. playing a gig in a pub) and that value is NOTHING! Why should a landlord bother to take such a band seriously and promote their gig? Bear in mind that plenty of landlords are just as amateurish as the bands they book and find that the idea of a band who are prepared to play for nothing seems very attractive. Of course, after a few weeks of cr*p bands they wonder why they have an empty pub on gig nights and blame it on a lack of demand for live music! That is not to say that I will not occasionally play a gig at a loss where it seems like the gig will provide exposure for the band, or just because we fancy doing it. Therefore I could be a few quid out of pocket after diesel, a couple of pints and a Travelodge for the night but the point is that the promoter / organiser (these types of gigs tend not to be pubs) have had to put their hand in their pocket to pay the band (even if it doesn’t cover our expenses). Therefore they have an interest in promoting the event to ensure that it is a success in order to get their money back…!

Not sure that the pub rock scene is ready for too many Accept cover versions, even around here...!

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1396720371' post='2416784'] When a player only wants to play in a covers band which means learning someone else's lines parrot fashion, why spend hours learning endless modes and diminished scales when he/she will never use them. If that player then chooses to move into a genre such as jazz then those skills will be useful but not before. So why waist time. [/quote] Surely the whole point is that having a basic understanding of scales will make it quicker and easier to accurately learn the basslines of the cover songs that you want to play??

We stormed it mate! First gig and all that , therefore a bit rough and ready on some of the intros and outros, but we got a big crowd and went down a storm. As you say, can’t go wrong at the Tap with that type of music – loads of reaction on Facebook, etc (link to band’s page below in my sig). We need a few more songs and a bit more work but looks like we may have a decent little band on our hands…

Hey dude, I will resurrect the old Heavy Rock Band Set List thread in off topic and post a set list tomorrow if I get chance..

My new hard rock covers band plays its first gig tonight at the Brewery Tap in Idle (north Bradford). The band features Neil ‘Sak’ Saxton on guitar (ex leader of NWOBHM stalwarts Baby Tuckoo) and singer Rik Finn. Rik is a real find, a cracking rock vocalist who has never played a ‘rock’ gig before, but has had extensive experience as a professional singer and dancer on cruise ships and the like. We are playing well known rock covers, but are trying to avoid the more obvious ones (i.e. no ‘Enter Sandman’ or Whole Lotta Rosie’, etc). We are hoping for a good turn out, but anyone who can get there will be most welcome – should be a good night…

[quote name='ThePapabull' timestamp='1396635735' post='2415969'] Hi all, Can anyone let me know if its possible to get/buy strings for a normal 34" scale 4 string bass that have al low string tension or feel? I realise that this may well be a stupid question as I guess string tension is governed by scale length i.e. the smaller the scale / neck length the lower the tension….. however if you don't ask you'll never know.. many thanks PB [/quote] Technically you are referring to 'compliance' rather than 'tension'. DR Hi-Beams are generally thought to have low (perceived) tension, whereas their Lo-riders have a much tighter feel...

[quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1396628496' post='2415873'] You scored a Bass 350 for a ton?? Oh you spawny git. That's a fabulous bargain. [/quote] Surprisingly, I've seen a few of em up on here going for a song...! I suppose they are a bit out of fashion as you can't lift them with your little finger, but a real bargain...

I had one for about 5 minutes about 15 years ago! To be honest I didn't really get on with it, but a hell of an amp for £100...

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396381445' post='2413010'] Inform, you did. Y'know, I've never done one of these blues jam things. I'd probably have understood 'Quick change' but 'In from the five' would have left me cacking. A brief glossary explaining stuff that people suddenly shout out a pico-second before the count-in would be dead handy. I've had a lengthy Google and can't seem to find anything. Any pointers, anyone? [/quote] The thing is I have done loads of ‘em, so you do tend to pick up the lingo! I’ve done quite a few as part of a house band at jam sessions at festivals etc, where the featured artists (who generally are great players) get up and stand in after they have done their set earlier in the evening. With these guys you are lucky if you get a quick shout of “fast shuffle in D, in from the five”! The worst are the Americans, who for some reason always want to play fast funk tunes in E flat. Occasionally they may tell you the name of the song, not that that is too important in blues! Still, keeps you on your toes and can be great fun…

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396380096' post='2412978'] Thanks Pete. I have learned something new today! [/quote] Excellent – I aim to entertain and inform! And when JT comes back and tells us what ‘henpecked 4ths’ are then we will all have learnt something else new…

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1396378718' post='2412953'] While we're at it, what does 'In from the five' mean? [/quote] Oooh please Sir, I know the answer to that one! It means that you start the intro to the song from where you would normally change to the V chord, i.e. if you are playing a standard I-IV-V twelve bar in the key of A, the intro would be 4 bars long and start where you would normally change to E7… As an alternative, you could start with a 4 bar guitar solo and the band could come in on the change to D7 to play an 8 bar intro, which would be ‘in from the four’…