peteb

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1322300265' post='1448991'] Interesting comment - for me the selling point of the P-Retro is its simplicity. Just two knobs (boost/cut and sweep) and you're never more than half a second away from a useable tone. Perhaps your luthier was referring to the wiring? [/quote] No, he was referring to the whole unit - he had done some work on a P bass with one fitted and wasn't impressed. As I understand it (from from the JE demo video - I've never come across one) the knobs are not quite that simple to use Just one man's opinion, albeit one who really knows his stuff! As I said, I am really impressed by the East curcuit on my jazz......

I have heard a very well respected luthier say that he was less than impressed with the East P-Bass circuit (he thought that it was too 'fiddly')! However, I have a East j-retro deluxe in a jazz, which is just awesome.....

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1322239562' post='1448521'] [/quote] Brilliant! I was going to click on the green 'like' arrow for this but can't due to being an admin and therefore buttonless! So have a 'like' on me!

[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1322082296' post='1446405'] It may be just me, but I don't think so. I used to always go to this forum to find some interesting stuff and good debate, albeit sometimes controversial. That's what attracts people, in my opinion. Just lately, I don't see the usual suspects (you know who you are) very often. I recently started a thread that was mildly controversial and was pulled up almost immediately on it. Is it just me? Fair enough if it is, but it mainly seems like stuff for sale and little else. [/quote] [quote name='ped' timestamp='1322082648' post='1446412'] Just remember it's a bass guitar forum, Pete. [/quote] Not sure if I totally agree there! If you want controversy, just head over to Off Topic! There are a few people regularly posting there (some who wouldn't know one end of a bass guitar from the other) pedaling a reactionary political view point on a whole range of subjects, which can at times get quite unpleasent Indeed, sometimes it can get like the readers comments on the Mail Online on a bad day!

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1321821964' post='1443530'] I guess there's no "one answer fits all" to this query. Based on what I've read on this thread and a few others along similar vein i've decided to put ego to one side and try a few other techniques to see if it works. Pick will be the last resort for me simply because i find it difficult to get comfortable with it. I'm much more comfortable using my thumb or index finger as a pick but it doesn't have the same edge as an actual pick. Not sure how we drifted into the covers debate but there you go it happened. Again differing opinions on that one too. Like most bands i guess if my suggestions to try various other techniques don't work then this will probably be forgotten in the realms of time. Still it was certainly an interesting topic which obviously some people have very strong opinions on and i have respect for all who commented. Hopefully my own decision to at least try and adapt something to accomodate will not offend or displease too many who made the effort to comment. Thanks to all - its been fun. All best Dave [/quote] I can see that you are tying to back away gracefully from this thread but it does raise an interesting issue beyond whether you play with fingers or a pick – the differing attitudes that people have to their role in a band (and I dare say to their day jobs and life in general)…!!

An interesting thread but some strange posts! To me the keys player made a reasonable suggestion that I would have answered “but I don’t play with a pick”, and that would have been the end of it – I wouldn’t ask a drummer to play with an orthodox grip if he had spent years developing a technique based on playing with a matched grip! As far as whether you should sound play covers exactly like the original, well it depends. Until recently I was playing in a classic rock covers band that used to do songs artists as varied as Van Halen, Ozzy, Hendrix, Pearl Jam, Deep Purple and the Osmonds! We used to play the VH and Ozzy covers pretty much note for note, the others we played in much the same style as the VH and Ozzy songs! It seemed to work pretty well and we always did well. Now me and the drummer find ourselves in a blues rock band, doing loads of gigs all over the place, playing covers that we have never even heard the original. Again, audiences seem to like it….. I have spent many years developing a style and a tone so that I sound like me! I can adapt to an extent to fit a different musical situation, but only to an extent. People ask me to join bands because of the way I play, so why would they then ask me to play completely differently?

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1321693654' post='1441947'] Far from it. He learned his mistake from losing the 1st Vai gig & managed to adapt to get the right sounds needed. He can now happily switch from getting a rounded bass tone (that's associated with fingerstyle) to a more sharp aggressive tone very easily just by how he plays. I wasn't disagreeing with your advice given, more like the opposite. A bassist should always know that his sound/style affects the groove of the song & he should be willing to use whatever technique he can to make sure it fits. Whether that means adapting his fingerstyle like Beller does or uses a pick or some other object makes no difference. See when you say Beller "developed" that technique, do you mean he actually came up with it or just learned how to do it? I grew up listening to Sheehan in the late 80s with Talas & he had a very aggressive tone back then. [/quote] I don't think that Beller invented this technique any more than I did, he just started playing like that to approximate the sound of playing with a pick. BS (and others) had been playing like that for years. To the OP - the band picked you as they liked your playing and your tone. The rest of the band seem to think that you sound great so I wouldn't drastically alter how you play just to please a keys player who was probably just wondering out loud what you would sound like with a pick!

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1321665951' post='1441897'] I don't think I can add much to what's been said, other than listen to the song you're playing & decide what's gonna sound best for it. A good bass player will happily switch how he plays, even mid song. I mainly play with fingers & it's what I prefer, but we have a couple of songs that just need the pick & even one with some slapping (though that's usually the guitarist for noodling during a slow vocal part). [/quote] But by your definition, is Bryan Beller is not a good bass player then??

It seems to me that the fashion for playing with a pick or fingers alternates in classic rock – pick in the 80s, then fingers and now pick again. Certainly all the recent bass players in bands like Whitesnake seem to mainly use a pick (Marco Mendoza, Uriah Duffy, etc) even if they are predominately finger players in other bands! I think that it is likely that your keyboard player has picked up on that. TBH, for the life of me I don’t see why it is so important, using fingers or a pick is only part of your sonic imprint and can easily be compensated for by many other factors! If you can play fast enough to nail a blast beat and can get a good solid sound when you play eighths I don’t see why it should make any difference if you play with your fingers or with a pick! I was persuaded by a band leader to change from fingers to pick back in the 80s and it was the worst musical decision I ever made! Unfortunately, I was not as strong a player with a pick and I spent what was probably the most important part of my musical career (such as it was) not playing to my full potential. After a few years I went back to playing with my fingers and was a much better player almost instantly! There is a technique that you can use to get the best of both worlds and get the attack of playing with a pick whilst using your fingers. This is something that I have been doing for years and was most gratified to find that that it was a technique that Bryan Beller developed after missing out on the Steve Vai gig first time round, mainly because he didn’t play with a pick! Basically, it involves striking across the strings at a bit of an angle to get a ‘chime’ that sounds a bit like a pick. It may seem that you are just digging in more but you are not necessarily playing any harder, it is more about the the action and angle that you attack the string! BB describes it much better than I can on various clips on the net, including an interview with Janek Gwizdala that Doddy posted a while ago on here and I think on the Bass Player magazine website as well. Billy Sheehan uses a similar approach when he plays his more basic bass lines and if it’s good enough for someone as anal as Vai (who now uses Beller as his first call bass player) and for King Billy, then it certainly should be good enough for your keyboard player!

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1321478653' post='1439778'] Not being from the guitar relm don't they have things called Kapos or Capos? Couldn't they stick one on the 5th fret and pretend the rest of the guitar don't exist? [/quote] No...!

[quote name='algmusic' timestamp='1321397681' post='1438793'] A fair comment, but I would bet money that 99% of songs written are governed by what key the singer wishes to sing. The other 1% was when the writer was a guitarist or bassist who sung. It's all about the range of the singer. I think people forget the musicians are not at the forefront of the songs. it's the singer and the melody. I also think playing in a different key has a lot to do with how good the player is to execute the song, but it may have something to play in it. [/quote] I do not think that it is necessarily correct, especially in rock songs that are written around a guitar part that is dependant on open strings For example, try playing Whole Lotta Rosie in 'C'

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1321187411' post='1436175'] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]It is usually the vocalists. Most of them are so restricted in what they can do with minimal technique that we all have to work to their limitations. I have never yet played with a vocalist who said play it in your key. [/font][/color][/size] [size=4][font=Arial][color=#000000]Guitarists are the next limiting factor in a band… but that’s a different topic![/color][/font][/size] [/quote] To be fair, what a singer can do is limited to an extent by their physical capabilities rather than just technique and a lot of guitar parts are very dependant on the use of open strings! The only time I have ever considered getting a 5 string is because of people calling out songs in strange keys!

I use an iGig double bag, which is great with plenty of protection & loads of storage, etc Cost more than £50 thru! It is also quite heavy when fully loaded but is still a great piece of kit that makes life much easier.....

From the recent Esquires Blues Weekend in Bedford

PS. on another note - someone said that Huw Lloyd-Langton isn't well - does anyone know what is wrong with him? I'm mates with his cousin (another good guitar player btw) and Huw seemed a nice guy when I met him....

My own contribution to music is relatively modest - I've played in a few decent bands who never set the world on fire and I've played with some very good players, a few of whom have also played with guys you may have actually heard of! A lot of my mates at school were into Hawkwind so I heard a fair bit of them, was even dragged to see them live, and I always thought that they were fu@/in awful! However I have no problem if someone else likes them You ought to learn to recognise a jocular remark when you see one!

[quote name='algmusic' timestamp='1319630921' post='1416595'] I think I'll have to disagree.. It's based on the a point of reference, it's seen a benchmark like an SM58.. People say Fender Jazz or P so people get an idea of the type of sound... I think Sadowsky sound very nice, but they are not fenders.. I wouldn't buy a Sadowsky because I want fender that's better, because it isn't. I'd buy Sadowsky because I like it or fender because I like that bass. Really Sadowsky should have made up there own name.. Funny stingrays, sterlings and Rickenbackers don't seem to have this problem [/quote] I agree that a Fender Jazz or P is certainly a reference sound and they are design classics, but I would still say that many other builders do 'Fender' better than the original (having owned a few at various times). A lot of people want something with a Fender look and feel, but want it to be better built and perhaps have the option of a more 'refined' and 'modern' version of the Fender sound, to quote Doddy. There is still a certain appeal to a Fender and I must confess that I have succombed and bought a rather beautifull looking s/h US jazz recently - but it has cost me a fair bit of time and money to get it to play and sound anything like as well as my other basses!

The truth is that Fender don't do Fender that well! Sadowsky et al take the basic idea / look and execute it a he'll of a lot better than the original...!

I was a bit sceptical about a bass costing that much and I can't imagine ordering one anytime soon, but I played a 4 string Fodera at a jam session a while ago and it was certainly the best bass that I have ever played!

[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1319391168' post='1413547'] Saying that, my fondest memory of Hawkwind was the naked dancer with the big norks. [/quote] By far their greatest contribution to the music world!

[quote name='mcgraham' timestamp='1319456249' post='1414216'] Someone also mentioned the guitarist using two guitar amps. Good idea! Another suggestion is to use a delay pedal set to a single uber-short delay - like one repeat at 40-70ms and at about 60-70% level of the original - to duplicate the guitar signal into the same amp (or even the other amp), but slightly offset from the timing of the original. This is a cheap and easy way to give the effect of double tracking but live. You can then also get away with lower gain levels from the amps while still getting a heavy sound, which then gets a slightly fuller guitar sound because the guitar has more natural 'cut' at the lower gain settings. [/quote] This - I used to play with a guitar player in a 3 piece for many years that did just that - always sounded huge!

You do have to 'fill out' the sound - to do that you have to leave spaces (if that makes sense)

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1319284753' post='1412225'] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]It sure is competitive. [/font][/color][/size] [size=4][color=#222222][font=Arial]Ideas? How many of you sing? You need good vocals and good BV's. You need flexibility in your choice of numbers. Don't buy pedals that make you sound mush, get a keyboard player who sings. [/font][/color][/size] [/quote] Good BVs will help a lot and I personally would not rely on pedals to fill out the sound

You will have to learn how to fill things out - you can get away boosting your low mids a little as you now only have one guitar to compete with, try playing more octaves, be more selective about where you mute - but not to the point of leaving no gaps at all Your remaining guitarist will have to adapt his style more, as he now has to fill in more of the sonic spectrum I have nearly always played with just the one guitar player and would probably have to adapt to be less overpowering if I were to play with two!

You need to know your modes and scales, etc but what you really need to do is to develop and then trust your ears! Don’t be afraid to listen and even steal from other players – everyone who’s any good has done it, especially in the blues! To take my earlier example, if can play the turnaround that Roscoe Beck plays in Talk To Your Daughter properly, you can then slow it down and play it over the turnaround of Red House, amending it where necessary so that it sounds right. Then it is no longer Roscoe Beck’s part anymore – it’s yours!