peteb

Well the Cliffs Pavilion is a theatre and while the Half Moon is technically a pub, it is / was one of the longest running live music venues in London. Anyway, enough already. I've got work to do (that I also get paid for) and haven't got time to be arguing about half forgotten RnB bands from 20 years ago!

Yes, I believe that the Hamsters did pretty much emerge fully formed as pro musicians, paid from the offset and working with promoters. I am sure that they built up an audience from playing paid gigs, but I have no idea what they did as teenagers. Wasn’t the bandleader / guitarist (Barry something or other??) a former journalist with a load of contacts? I didn’t get paid for my first few gigs at youth clubs and specially promoted events. Then I played the originals circuit, mainly playing clubs where we usually got paid (even though we often lost money travelling to gigs). Remember, this was a while ago and very different times for live music. I was always paid whenever we played a pub. That is certainly true for making money from touring or selling records, but not playing down the Dog & Duck on a Saturday night!

No, the Hamsters were a touring band of pros who worked with promoters. This is a completely different market to a local pub live music circuit. How many times do you need this explaining to you? In an ideal world, perhaps pubs would have someone on the door and make punters pay a couple of quid to see the band. But that is not the way the market works these days and is not going to happen. However, punters still go to see bands playing covers in pubs, which helps landlords to sell beer. Therefore these bands should be paid. If you are an unknown originals band then you should be playing events promoted to your potential audience. These days you are always going to struggle to find an audience playing pubs (although I daresay that there is the odd exception). There is a reason why pubs generally book cover bands.

Anyway, forget about playing a gig (that isn't going to happen until the end of the year at the earliest), but at least I've got a rehearsal with one band next week, with rehearsals for the covers band due to resume in the next couple of weeks or so! I've been charting out a few songs for next week today - just need to change strings that have been on for 18 months or so and change batteries in a couple of active basses, etc...

I saw the Hamsters a few times. They were professional musicians who toured around the country playing dedicated music venues, rather than local pubs putting live music on a weekend. They had a policy of insisting that punters had to pay to see them and refused to play places that didn't charge for admission. I agree with them that people should ideally at least pay a nominal fee to see live music, but unfortunately that is not necessarily how the general local pub gig market works.

Thankfully no. Please be aware that we are (or at least I am) talking about a rather specific market activity, i.e. playing covers at pub gigs. If you are doing something completely different, then it what I am saying does not necessarily apply. I will on occasion play for free; be it for a genuine charity, as a favour to a friend or to promote an original band. However, I will always expect to be paid if the primary reason for a gig is to assist a pub landlord to sell beer!

That is exactly how it works for pub gigs! However, when the tribute or the original band that I'm in play gigs, then people have to pay to see us. How much we make or, in the case of the originals band, whether they are paying to see the main band rather than us is another matter. Completely different types of markets.

So do I - but not playing classic rock covers in a pub!

I am sure that you can appreciate the difference between playing covers in a pub to sell beer for a landlord and the opportunity to promote your act by playing a massive high-profile gig. As I have said above, this is something that my originals band would be happy to do, albeit on a massively smaller scale. Do try and keep up old boy...

To be fair, you get paid what other people think that you are worth, but the starting point for the negotiation is what you ask for. Of course, if you don't ask for any payment you are telling people that what you do is without value.

But still pretty cool...

But people want to go and see a band playing cover tunes in a pub and to drink beer. No one is forcing them (at least not for my bands)!

I'm sorry mate, but you have no idea of what a market is. There can be a market for anything where there is a demand and a supplier can meet that demand, i.e. in this case a pub with a demand for bands to play and therefore encourage punters to go to that pub and drink beer. It doesn't matter if it is a necessity or if the musicians playing those gigs have other jobs - it is still an economic activity and there is a market for it. No one needs a luxury car and of course, people doing DIY their own properties has an effect on the market for tradesmen to carry out work on people's homes.

Why don't you believe that the live music is a free market?? It is a very good example of how a market operates and how it can be distorted. Very true. I wouldn't play a covers band gig without getting paid, unless there was a very good reason. However, I also play in an originals band where it is unlikely that we would get paid for gigs. That is because any gigs that we would do are likely to be supports for better known bands in a similar genre (who would be getting paid). We would be getting in front of their audience to hopefully sell a few albums, as well as increasing the recognition of the band.

I don't know where some people go to see bands. There are plenty of decent cover bands around here (regardless of if you like the material or not). There are also some awful ones, but if you take an interest and follow what is happening in the local music scene, there is no reason why you shouldn't have some decent musical entertainment whenever you go out for a few beers.

Donating the money you make from playing is very admirable. However, in many parts of the UK there is an established market for live bands playing in pubs and around here, all the good bands (and there are several) get paid. This sets a value for live music and creates a market that works reasonably well. Decent bands get paid, punters get to have a good night out listening to a good band and pubs sell more in beer than they pay the bands. The out and out hobbyists who are prepared to play for nothing just distort that market.

Exactly. Look at it another way, just how bad must a covers band be to be prepared to play a standard pub gig for no money?

Deep Purple & Van Halen are always fun to cover

Especially encouragement

At which everyone would have been too drunk to care if a song was being played on an accordion, a guitar or a stylophone...!

I think I know his northern cousin! A nice guy (rather than pleasant - a biker with a bipolar issues & a chip on his shoulder) and what he plays is fine, just that he will never take the damn thing out of his mouth and plays over everything!

To be honest, I know plenty of people who can be that guy at times and my missus sometimes complains that I (along with most of my mates) will critique a band to the nth degree, while she just wants to sing along and enjoy the band! That's just one of the issues of being married to a muso! Beyond that, I just like being in a crowd watching live music. I'm not too keen on stadium gigs, but concert halls, decent clubs or even pubs are fine for me.

That was my practice rig until I got the Double Four.

Yep, that's the one. Good version, but the original perhaps had a bit more fire about it - then again it did feature Sklar, Jan Hammer and the great Tommy Bolin! Some mates of mine used to chuck it in occasionally (when they had a crowd where it wouldn't go straight over their heads). The rhythm section (both good players) used to dread it - playing that same repetitive figure over and over again is just RSI inducing...

Wasn't the Massive Attack track a version of the Red Baron (same album)?? I could be wrong...