peteb

Or to quote Steve Lukather, "there are fetuses that can play Eruption these days"

I think that the first step is definitely to give them both a second audition.

That's what Lemmy did when he auditioned Wurzel & Phil Campbell...! It is difficult for anyone to say if they weren't in the room. Assuming that they are equally matched as guitar players and both seem fine on a personal level then Candidate 1 might have the edge if he is more confident (not a bad thing for a lead guitarist). However, Candidate 2 might have a significant advantage on the visual front, which can be a big thing depending on what type of band you are. You just have to balance their respective qualities and then try not to pi*s off the guy you don't give the gig, just in case you need to give him a ring in a few months time...!

You do need a half decent singer to even attempt quite a few Whitesnake songs. Something that old Coverversion is finding out as he gets older and his voice is starting to go...

There’s a reason why later versions of Whitesnake, the various WS tribute bands and most cover bands generally play a version in between the two recorded versions but without the original bassline. Whilst we are all in awe of Neil’s original part, it does mean that you can’t go for a bigger sounding arrangement and you have to play the song a notch slower than perhaps feels comfortable for many bands. The cover band that I’m in play a few classic WS songs, but we tend to go for the later period live arrangements. This because that is closer to what we naturally sound like, having all been a product of the 80s hard rock scene (perhaps not quite so much with me, but then I have played in more bluesier bands as well). Both versions of Whitesnake have their strengths (especially live), although after 1987 the songwriting suffered and the albums tended to be pretty poor. Also, Coverdale’s voice suffered, losing a lot of the richness he had in the earlier days as he tried to sing right at the top of his range.

Perhaps the more relevant question is might they want to reduce the fee, due to business pressures arising from the COVID environment?

The version in A isn't the Neil Murray version - it's the Rudy Sarzo line, which although a perfectly good bassline suited to a bigger production, lacks the magic of the original Murray part. There is a pretty accurate tab of the Neil Murray part (in G) somewhere online, which I reckon is about 90% right (misses a few runs) but a good starter for ten.

Or me...! 🙂

Are you doing the original (Neil Murray) bassline? If you are going to attempt Murray's version, the secret (for me anyway) was to make sure that the drummer holds back a little. If he speeds up (as many semi-pro drummers have a habit of doing), then it gets very easy for you to struggle to get all the parts of the bassline in before you're onto the next section...!

Please don't think that you don't have my full support. I am lucky enough to be working from home on full salary, but if things had gone differently I could have taken a redundancy package before the pandemic and been working as a freelance and found myself in the same position as you. The issue is that things are likely to change and could get more difficult for guys like you. I have a lot of friends in a similar position to you and I am concerned for them.

It won't be the bands fault or anybody else's. But unless live music can be made financially viable then pubs and clubs will either close or stop putting on bands. Everybody (musicians, pubs & punters) will lose out. The problem is that in a recession, punters will struggle to be able afford to go out to pubs or clubs - let alone spend more on a rare night out to support the venues & bands.

But what if venues start offering lower fees and corporate gigs have their budgets cut? Will your brother be prepared to accept less money or risk losing work to those who will? I’m not really talking about playing for free. I might do that as a one-off gig while social distancing remains in force and then only for a venue that I already have a good relationship with. What I am trying to do is get my bandmates used to the idea that they may have to accept that they could be playing for less money next year.

Absolutely. Two things I would say: at some point in the not too distant future people will feel safe enough to go out and not avoid crowds and; it is not a case of being ‘principled’ to refuse to accept changes in market forces and go out of business. There is going to be a recession, not just because of COVID 19. This will lead to venues closing but still (nearly) the same number of bands who want to play in them. Therefore, there will be an over-supply of bands causing band fees to drop. Going hand-in-hand with this will be a drop in demand from punters, many of whom may lose their jobs or struggle to pay the mortgage and therefore can’t afford to go out to support live music events. This will mean a potential loss of income for pubs / venues, again forcing gig fees to drop. As you say, all this is going to push down band fees as a result of the change in the supply / demand curve. All of this is going to have an effect on the live music scene, both at the professional and semi-pro levels. At pub band level, the better bands with established followings may find themselves having to reduce their fees and start competing with bands who are perhaps not so good. These bands will struggle even more for gigs and may be forced to play less often for free. On one hand, this might mean that it is likely that there is an awful band on when you turn up at a typical pub venue, on the other hand how are these bands supposed to get better it they’re starved of gigs?? At the pro level, it’s difficult enough these days trying to make a living with music as your main source of income and it’s not going to get any easier! Interesting times…

You're certainly not being dim mate, the rules are incredibly vague and will be ignored apart from the main points i.e. social distancing. This allows the government to demonstrate that it is showing support for the sector, whilst putting all the blame on the venue if anything goes wrong.

I don't think so, especially not covers bands that generate additional revenue for pubs / other venues and get paid for providing that service. However, I think that going forward, musicians who expect to get paid for gigging (be it their main form of income or just additional earnings) are going to find that the current market for their services MAY well change. There is very likely going to be a recession that could last for a while, which will affect the number of punters who can afford a night out watching live music (or at least mean that they do so less regularly). This will affect the amount that venue will be able to pay. It is no good simply insisting on your current fees, or thinking that you are too good to play for less money because there is a real danger that you just won't work - venues will not be able pay bands more money than they generate in bar sales! I know that this is crystal ball stuff, but you do have to at least be prepared for the possibility. The real danger for most gigging musos in the long term is that punters start to get out of the habit of going out to watch live music.

Would it make any difference if the question was: 'Would you play for a reduced fee to support a friendly venue who can't make their usual way of promoting live music financially viable in the current climate (social distancing, etc)', instead of 'would you play for free'??

I think that this is mainly an issue while social distancing is still operating in venues, so the resulting smaller audience pretty much makes it impossible to make gigs where they pay the artist financially viable. I would be more open to doing this than I would have in the past, but I would have to like / trust the pub manager / promoter and I would be very wary about this becoming the new normal going forward. So the answer for me is 'possibly, depends on the venue and circumstances'. There is another related topic on whether market forces (in the midst of a likely recession due to COVID 19 and other reasons) may mean that fees might have to be reduced in the future to make gigs financially viable?

I would be much more open to doing something like that than I would have been before lockdown. I'm still a bit cautious though - potential for a slippery slope there...

To be honest, not being the sort of chap who participates in debate among the classical music set, I didn't know that. I thought that for the past 200 years plus the thing was very much, play what's on the page.

I'm not sure that I know any more what point you think I was making. All I was saying is that Beethoven was one of the greats of classical music, but I don't think that he could knock out 12 bar rock & roll tunes as good as Chuck Berry could (or even Status Quo). Similarly, songwriters can successfully write across different genres (to a point). Paul McCartney has had great success writing songs across the pop music and rock & roll canon, but he has never made a heavy metal record as good as Master of Puppets.

I think that you have to be careful looking for similarities across the centuries. The great composers would often write on commission and they didn't just write grand symphonies. They would write what there was a demand for (but all within a broad classical tradition), but they would not deign to write certain types of 'low' or folk type music, which they thought below them and would not please their wealthy patrons or high brow society audience. I believe that the possible exception was Mozart, who liked to upset the more pompous sections of society (but I may have just got that from Amadeus)...

To be honest, I don’t think that I have moved the goalposts. Possibly you have stretched my argument to breaking point with distractions about Paul Gilbert, etc but the central point remains. I am not doubting that songwriters can apply their craft across different genres, but the composer (widely accepted as a genius) of some of the most renowned symphonies in history would not have the slightest interest in knocking out a catchy 12 bar and it would be a waste of his immense talent to do so. Even if he fancied having a go for the money, he would come short as he would not have grown up idolising Chuck Berry, Muddy Waters and the Beatles nor would he have lived a life of sweaty pub gigs, the resulting dubious romantic encounters and the endless motorway miles that helped shaped what made Quo connect to a mass audience, mainly made up of teenage boys looking for a release from their daily frustrations. I disagree about "authenticity" being “the biggest load of codswallop in music”. You have to be careful here, otherwise you can go down several rabbit holes of nonsense about whether you are the right race or sex to play a particular type of music. But at a minimum you to have a genuine understanding of the genre and preferably a connection to it. Think of why Guns n’Roses exploded like they did and their remaining appeal, or why Thin Lizzy were such a great rock and roll band in the 70s and such a mediocre metal / AOR band in the 80s. Equally, I agree that "contrived" does not mean 'not able to write it', but it does mean not being able to do so convincingly.

No, I'm saying that apart from playing trumpet in the school orchestra, he didn't have the level of technical proficiency or musical training of Paul Gilbert or Alex Skolnick and as far as I am aware, Ludwig van Beethoven didn't write "Roll Over Lay Down" (although there may be a clip of an early performance from 1796 on YouTube)...!

But that's a different thing! Gilbert was a music school kid and Skolnick had a decent level of musical training, including being taught by Joe Satriani. Both are trained musicians who happened to grow up loving heavy metal and other types of classic rock. Neither of them are Ludwig van Beethoven and nor have they have been associated with anything as basic as Status Quo. On the other hand, Rossi served his apprenticeship playing old time rock and roll in British holiday camps in the 60s and made his mark writing pretty basic 12 bars. I would say that is a considerably different arena to that inhabited by Gilbert & Skolnick.

There are certain situations where musicians are not actually on a stage, so performance is not such an important factor (although in many situations I'm sure that it helps). As far as the DLRs of this world - obviously they generally have a larger than life personality to start with, but they really do develop their craft. I can tell you that for sure...