peteb

What you say makes perfect sense and therefore has no chance of happening in Brexit Britain! Of course, the MU is on the case and has been lobbying hard and we have all signed numerous letters and petitions. A Govt spokesman made a statement that they were aware of the situation and would looking out for musicians’ interests in negotiations to allow them to carry on working in the EU in a similar way to how they do now. This was flatly contradicted by the official govt guidelines issued a week later and then came the announcement about European musicians needing a Tier 5 visa in order to perform in the U.K. Just to be clear, although I have played all over the UK, I am not a pro. I have a full time day job (although that is likely to change soon) and whenever I have had the opportunity to gig in Europe, unfortunately I have been unable to do it. However, I do have many friends who are pros and for whom playing in Europe makes up a significant part of their income. Of course, this is not just about independent pro musicians being able to play in Europe. The FoM issue is going to bite every individual contractor or small business in the high tech / creative industries as well and there will be similar problems for academia and the science / research areas. It isn’t a case of adapting to a new reality, they will either limit their ambitions or just go out of business. And this isn’t even looking at the effect on the wider economy and who is going to work in the health service, care homes, pick fruit, etc…

So much for global Britain then...

You may be a glass half full guy, but neither the less my point about being over taken by developing nations still stands. Ask yourself this question, is there any reason at all that a British office or factory worker should have a better standard of living or better working conditions than an Indonesian worker doing a similar job once we leave the single market??

No, people like me (and probably you) will be losers while the winners will be those who run hedge funds. This is the death of ambition for ordinary people and there is no upside for you and me. The whole thing will eventually collapse as it becomes apparent that the UK cannot prosper on its own as it is rapidly overtaken by the many developing Asian and South American economies and we will be forced back into orbit with our closest \ natural allies. Of course the damage to the living standards of normal British people will already be done...

The issue is that I've been offered gigs in northern Europe. I've never been offered gigs in New Zealand or the far east and I never will.

On a different note, I must congratulate BC on allowing a sensible debate on an important subject that inevitably involves talking about politics.

More likely Scotland will have gone, there will be an United Ireland and we will have s revised trade agreement that pretty much puts us in the EEA in all but name. But there is plenty of pain ahead before we get to that position.

Well hold your horses! As you say, it takes a lot to up sticks and leave the country in search of a better life and there are redundancy / pension issues for me to sort out, walking away from a couple of moderately successful bands, not to mention family issues for both me and my wife. It is a possibility and a few of my mates have moved or are in the process of moving to the Malaga region, which does hold certain attractions. Of course, it is far easier for a pro muso with no ties to just relocate to Amsterdam (generally, rather than Dublin), but as the saying goes 'behind every moderately successful pro musician is a wife with a steady income'! The real question is why moderately successful people like me are either leaving or looking to leave the country because they think it is going really struggle over the next ten / twenty years, when 15 years ago it was seen as a place of great opportunity??

I know several who have done so, but it's not practical for everyone. I'm not a pro, but I'm looking into whether it's feasible to make the move before the 31 December deadline.

Most of the people I'm talking about are musicians playing in 'traditional' bands, but I do understand that this affects a far greater group, be it classical musicians playing in an orchestra or the solo performers and artists you are referring to. Of course, it's not just musicians and artists that will get a kicking. Evert small scale high tech or creative business who rely on work across Europe are going to be in trouble. Some will be able to adapt, but most will either downsize or go out of business, to the benefit of their competitors across northern Europe.

I think that you have to except that this going to just stop a lot of musicians from playing in Europe and for many will mean the end of their career as a pro. That's not being alarmist, just accepting the inevitable. Of course, for bands that generate enough income this will just be a PITA and another business expense. Also, the occasional hobby band will just accept the additional expense and do it anyway instead of going on holiday to a Greek island for a week. But, for a certain level of pro player, this will have serious consequences that there will be no way round (as things stand at the moment) unless there is a change in the stance of both the British government and the EU.

My wife used to be a Catering Manager for a large company who had held loads of franchises for schools, hospitals and businesses etc. She used to regularly recruit kitchen staff for minimum wage positions and had the same experience.

This has really gone into the politics of the situation, which is inevitable. IBTL what we are talking about is the death if an industry. And its not just musicians who will 'have to get a day job', it's all the small businesses and individuals who make a decent living in the high tech and creative industries that the UK has excelled at...

What it really means for many people I know is forget about making a living from playing music and go and get a job in a call centre. Meanwhile, all the decent work will go to those with an EU passport.

The real issue (apart from the cost) is will a UK band be able to get the necessary visas at short notice to play five dates in 200 capacity clubs over seven days across Holland, Belgium and northern France when there is no reason why an Italian band couldn't do those gigs.

But people are panicking, because they are already losing work! The perception is that hiring UK musicians will be too much hassle and too expensive. The final visa regime may not be too bad / expensive, but then again it could be terrible. Remember, it is Brit musicians who need the relatively lucrative EU market, rather than the Dutch lads who are laughing that they may be forced to go and play in Germany for more money instead! Interesting take on the EU playing hard-ball, but let's not get into the specific politics of it.

You're not talking about a thousand tickets, you're closer to 300 or so. And yep, many of the European bands are just as good. Quite often, a British band leader will have a European backing band. I can think of one guy (moderate name on the blues circuit) who just moved out to Amsterdam. At Colne Blues festival last year, the Dutch guys were joking that it was nice to know us, but we'll never see them again. The real issue for small time pro uk musicians is that they may be cut off from the relatively lucrative European club circuit.

I don't know the specifics, but they are very concerned. Apparently, bookers are already looking for alternatives to UK acts, as it will just be easier and cheaper to book European bands.

The answer is yes they do, which is why you don't see too many touring at club level unless they have a bit of organisational backing or money behind them. The other factor is that you generally don't make money from touring the UK at club level, whereas you do in Europe. It is very worrying for some of my pro mates who are wondering how they are going to make a living.

The issue is that the EU will reciprocate and UK musos will need Visa/ carnets to play on the mainland. I know plenty of pros who make a lot of their income by popping over to Europe several times a year, who will be pretty much out of business in a year's time.

To be fair, its a pretty low grade problem in the scheme of things, but yes, I totally agree

All excellent points! When I was playing in an original band first time around, I wouldn't have considered doing a covers band on the side. Looking back, that was a mistake...

The trouble is that is exactly how it is presented in many cases

I always quite liked Steely Dan. Not a massive fan, so I wouldn’t know the albums – more a greatest hits kinda guy! I have been following this thread with some bemusement – the British disease written large on Basschat. While I appreciate not everybody will like SD, I am surprised at how many ‘musicians’ so actively dislike them. It’s not just them though, consider the following common opinions on BC about a few big artists from this (and many other threads): Steely Dan – jazz harmonies and flavours combined with funk beats and a rock feel, combined in well crafted, accessible songs with razor sharp lyrics and stellar musicianship. BASSCHAT – ‘what do people see in the them, beige, how can anyone like this stuff?’ Jaco – a genuine virtuoso who revolutionised bass playing and transcended his chosen instrument in a similar way to a select few others (Hendrix, Coltraine, etc). Widely regarded by the general music community as one of the best and most influential musicians of his era. BASSCHAT – ‘he’s overrated / crap and if you disagree, you’re a deluded fanboy’… Foo Fighters – in an age of overly manufactured pop and contrived rock (and for that matter rap) acts, probably the last of the great classic rock bands. Massively popular with passion, a bit of charisma, decent playing and a set of incredibly accessible hit songs that reference grunge, Led Zeppelin, punk rock, heavy stuff and Tom Petty all in a recognisable style of their own. BASSCHAT – ‘there is nothing about them that appeals at all’. I should say that I only have a SD greatest hits album, the first Jaco solo album and the missus has the FF greatest hits in the house, none of which get played regularly. So given that I’m not exactly the biggest fan and I appreciate that everyone has their own taste, but jeez why are so many people on here so down on what is pretty solid music??

Not necessarily, it depends on both the venue and the band. Covers bands can certainly develop a large following.