peteb

Generally, there doesn't tend to be a rider when you're playing pubs IME

That is the problem with playing gigs for free - you have put a value on your services and that value is zero! If they had committed to pay a couple of hundred quid (or whatever the going rate is) then it is the venue's interest to make sure that they act professionally and keep you reasonably happy as they want to make their money back. If it's not costing them anything then why should they care? I'm not saying that you should never play for free, but it has offer something significant to make it worthwhile. For example, a support to a semi known band in a club where there will be a couple of hundred people there - you still may be treated badly, but at least it has put you in front of a suitable audience that may help your band to establish a following / sell merch, etc. As far as free drinks go, some places will give the band free sodas all night and many (but by no means all) landlords will buy you a beer at the end of the night. I would be more concerned about playing an unsuitable venue where they aren't bothered about having a band, but doing it anyway because it's not costing them anything.

To be fair, Sixx & Simmons have done what they have done and although I'm not a particular fan of either band, they are each responsible for more than a few good tracks. By all accounts, Nikki Sixx is a pretty decent human being these days now he's sober. The thing is that they are just treating fans like marks. These are the people who made them what they are and trying to exploit them in this way just seems a bit cheap. Beller is a proper musician (rather than a 'Rock Star' like Sixx & Simmons) and seems to appreciate his fans and how they have made his career possible. I saw Pat Travers about tens years ago at a half full club in Leeds. At the end of the gig, he said before the last song that they would be going to get changed but if anyone wanted to have a beer or to chat or get anything signed, him and his band would be at the bar in twenty minutes. He may not be as big a star as Gene Simmons, but I know who I have the most respect for.

That's because Beller has a level of class that Sixx and, especially, Gene Simmons could never begin to understand...

But there is a world of difference between him and a genuine semi-pro like me who gigs regularly and makes some money from music, but has a full time 9 to 5 day job.

I think that tells you pretty much how Brexit is going to work out for ordinary British workers! The real question is, will there be a tariff applied when the blue passports are imported into the UK??

I'm afraid that there is just no more room in our house for any more physical books - me and the missus have both got kindles and never looked back

This is a problem that a lot of quitters have, they over estimate the size and importance of the UK economy The UK is not the USA…! America has a number of music industry hubs (LA, New York, Nashville, Atlanta, Chicago, Austin, Dallas, etc – these are just off the top of my head), all of which are currently more important than London. There is simply no comparison. The American market is big enough that it really does not need anyone else. If you look at the biggest touring acts in the USA over the past few years, there will be very few (if any) none American based acts. This is not the case with the UK and British musicians need to access the European market on our doorstep in order to survive.

We may not have anything comparable between the nations of the UK, but we certainly have in Europe - estimates of total deaths ranging from 70 million to 85 million in WW2 and even more in the 'Great' WW1. Pretty much the reason for the EU's existence. Let's not forget that that more recently there were another 140,000 plus deaths in the Yugoslav Wars - an example of a war in Europe arising from historical conflicts between nations that were outside of the influence of the EU. Never again...

Forget about 'glass half full', let's be realistic. What Maude outlined would mean pretty much the death of the small time professional musician in the UK. Frankly, you can't make money touring in the UK, whereas you still can on the mainland! As far as Nissan goes, they will try to protect their £4bn investment in the UK, but as soon as that is no longer feasible they will drop Sunderland like a hot potato. Only yesterday another major employer announced that they are pulling out of a northern town that voted heavily for Leave to relocate in the EU. A lot of people are going to get a very nasty wake up call in the next 5 years or so. Perhaps then we will see a more realistic approach from the government to our relationship with the rest of Europe.

What you say makes perfect sense and therefore has no chance of happening in Brexit Britain! Of course, the MU is on the case and has been lobbying hard and we have all signed numerous letters and petitions. A Govt spokesman made a statement that they were aware of the situation and would looking out for musicians’ interests in negotiations to allow them to carry on working in the EU in a similar way to how they do now. This was flatly contradicted by the official govt guidelines issued a week later and then came the announcement about European musicians needing a Tier 5 visa in order to perform in the U.K. Just to be clear, although I have played all over the UK, I am not a pro. I have a full time day job (although that is likely to change soon) and whenever I have had the opportunity to gig in Europe, unfortunately I have been unable to do it. However, I do have many friends who are pros and for whom playing in Europe makes up a significant part of their income. Of course, this is not just about independent pro musicians being able to play in Europe. The FoM issue is going to bite every individual contractor or small business in the high tech / creative industries as well and there will be similar problems for academia and the science / research areas. It isn’t a case of adapting to a new reality, they will either limit their ambitions or just go out of business. And this isn’t even looking at the effect on the wider economy and who is going to work in the health service, care homes, pick fruit, etc…

So much for global Britain then...

You may be a glass half full guy, but neither the less my point about being over taken by developing nations still stands. Ask yourself this question, is there any reason at all that a British office or factory worker should have a better standard of living or better working conditions than an Indonesian worker doing a similar job once we leave the single market??

No, people like me (and probably you) will be losers while the winners will be those who run hedge funds. This is the death of ambition for ordinary people and there is no upside for you and me. The whole thing will eventually collapse as it becomes apparent that the UK cannot prosper on its own as it is rapidly overtaken by the many developing Asian and South American economies and we will be forced back into orbit with our closest \ natural allies. Of course the damage to the living standards of normal British people will already be done...

The issue is that I've been offered gigs in northern Europe. I've never been offered gigs in New Zealand or the far east and I never will.

On a different note, I must congratulate BC on allowing a sensible debate on an important subject that inevitably involves talking about politics.

More likely Scotland will have gone, there will be an United Ireland and we will have s revised trade agreement that pretty much puts us in the EEA in all but name. But there is plenty of pain ahead before we get to that position.

Well hold your horses! As you say, it takes a lot to up sticks and leave the country in search of a better life and there are redundancy / pension issues for me to sort out, walking away from a couple of moderately successful bands, not to mention family issues for both me and my wife. It is a possibility and a few of my mates have moved or are in the process of moving to the Malaga region, which does hold certain attractions. Of course, it is far easier for a pro muso with no ties to just relocate to Amsterdam (generally, rather than Dublin), but as the saying goes 'behind every moderately successful pro musician is a wife with a steady income'! The real question is why moderately successful people like me are either leaving or looking to leave the country because they think it is going really struggle over the next ten / twenty years, when 15 years ago it was seen as a place of great opportunity??

I know several who have done so, but it's not practical for everyone. I'm not a pro, but I'm looking into whether it's feasible to make the move before the 31 December deadline.

Most of the people I'm talking about are musicians playing in 'traditional' bands, but I do understand that this affects a far greater group, be it classical musicians playing in an orchestra or the solo performers and artists you are referring to. Of course, it's not just musicians and artists that will get a kicking. Evert small scale high tech or creative business who rely on work across Europe are going to be in trouble. Some will be able to adapt, but most will either downsize or go out of business, to the benefit of their competitors across northern Europe.

I think that you have to except that this going to just stop a lot of musicians from playing in Europe and for many will mean the end of their career as a pro. That's not being alarmist, just accepting the inevitable. Of course, for bands that generate enough income this will just be a PITA and another business expense. Also, the occasional hobby band will just accept the additional expense and do it anyway instead of going on holiday to a Greek island for a week. But, for a certain level of pro player, this will have serious consequences that there will be no way round (as things stand at the moment) unless there is a change in the stance of both the British government and the EU.

My wife used to be a Catering Manager for a large company who had held loads of franchises for schools, hospitals and businesses etc. She used to regularly recruit kitchen staff for minimum wage positions and had the same experience.

This has really gone into the politics of the situation, which is inevitable. IBTL what we are talking about is the death if an industry. And its not just musicians who will 'have to get a day job', it's all the small businesses and individuals who make a decent living in the high tech and creative industries that the UK has excelled at...

What it really means for many people I know is forget about making a living from playing music and go and get a job in a call centre. Meanwhile, all the decent work will go to those with an EU passport.

The real issue (apart from the cost) is will a UK band be able to get the necessary visas at short notice to play five dates in 200 capacity clubs over seven days across Holland, Belgium and northern France when there is no reason why an Italian band couldn't do those gigs.