peteb

[quote name='neilp' timestamp='1470787555' post='3108527'] If you could do it as well and as tight as Mr Clayton does it, root notes or not, you probably wouldn't still be playing in bar bands. In my opinion....... [/quote] Surely you're missing the point here. There are many far superior bass players to Adam Clayton playing in bars, but so what! AC is someone who 'got lucky in a band' but that band is U2, one of the biggest bands ever and he plays his part in that very well (made some terrific music as well IMO).

This is probably the only country in the world where people on a musician’s forum would argue that they should actually be treated worse than other musicians elsewhere in the world! Leaving the EU (or more precisely the EEA) is potentially a nightmare for British musicians, so why rush to make things worse than they have to be. Hopefully the organisations holding the negotiations will seek to minimise harm and make things as consistent as possible between the UK and the EU, so if this is in place it may well be retained. If nothing else, signing the petition may help to make life a little easier for our brother musicians on the mainland when they have to take instruments on a flight.

[quote name='4stringslow' timestamp='1470580048' post='3106855'] Don't forget that this forum is populated by a self-selected set of bass fans, so it's likely that we can all appreciate the skilful playing of someone like Jaco. I know I couldn't play any of his stuff and can therefore genuinely admire his virtuosity. But it doesn't mean I actually like the music he plays and nor should it, necessarily. The two things are completely separate. [/quote] This is the thing that always gets me whenever Jaco’s name is mentioned on here. You would think that a forum consisting not just of musicians, but bass players or aspiring bass players would appreciate the musicality and the legacy of innovation even if they don’t like the music – especially as Jaco wasn’t just an amazing technician but a very skilful and funky ensemble player. I certainly don’t own every JP recording and if there is anyone who is predisposed to listen to and play straight 8s rock music then it’s me, but I can understand the musicality and the lasting influence he has had on the world of bass playing. FWIW I have just seen a Scot Devine clip where he discussed his personal top ten influences on him as a bass player. I would say that Jaco was an influence on most (if not all) of them and whilst nine out of the ten were very technical jazz players (the exception being Pino), none of those had his groove or soul, even if many might have arguably have surpassed his technical prowess.

Did a blues festival in Scotland a couple of years ago playing three gigs in three different venues (all within 500 yards or so of each other) back to back ie starting around 5 o'clock in the afternoon thru to 1 o'clock in the morning. It worked ok - the only problem was finding time to get something to eat...

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1470160661' post='3103747'] True, here in Milwaukee you'd never see an ad from Greg Koch or Daryl Strummer (Genesis) looking for a bass player. Blue [/quote] Let's be honest, guys like that are operating at a different level to most of us and you wouldn't expect to hear of those opportunities. The thing is that the better bar bands would never put an ad out for a new bass player.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1470160230' post='3103738'] That's what I thought, all start ups.An established band with work and money is involved are never advertised. And #3, says they're looking for the best. Sorry but your not going to get the best when your a start up. Blue [/quote] Every great band was a start up at some point. Quite often the best, most creative players want to start a project that they have a say in what it does, rather than fit in with an established band. Players of that standing have plenty of contacts and don't have problems finding work for a new band.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with any of those ads, but as stated above better bands will tent to recruit by word of mouth - either people they know or recommendations from people they know.

[quote name='BassBod' timestamp='1468426879' post='3090867'] Lovely cab, but it's a heavy bugger... [/quote] I had two of those in my rig for many years. Not as efficient as some modern cabs but sounded great. [quote name='JPJ' timestamp='1468435228' post='3090951'] You think that's heavy? [URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JPJ/media/IMG_0864_zps17e5864c.jpg.html][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/JPJ/IMG_0864_zps17e5864c.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [/quote] I also had one of those! One of the best cabs I've ever owned.

Forgetting about the childish crap about music stands and not performing unpaid, it's an interesting thread because unfortunately this type of gig just not exist around here! We do get various motorcycle club rallies that are very similar in terms of PA, lights & staging etc. Everyone loves playing them as it gives you the chance to play on a big stage to a couple of thousand people, which is pretty cool for the average bar band. They usually pay the same as a well paid pub gig, although the bigger rallies may pay a couple of grand for the headliner (often one of the bigger rock tribute acts). Unfortunately a lot of these events are struggling financially these days and some have called it a day, but they are certainly great fun to play.

Right then, a number of points the first being this a skill you develop. Break the songb down into small manageable sections, say 2 or 4 bars at a time. Then before you pick up your bass sing the baseline out loud. Basically if you can sing it you can work out how to play it. It helps if you know your scales or have a very basic understanding of modes or chord tones as it will help you to recognise patterns more easily. These are the building blocks of al music and remember that there is a maximum of only 12 notes, so there are lots of patterns that you will find cropping up in all sorts of songs. Hope that this helps. Good luck.

[quote name='DarkHeart' timestamp='1465769313' post='3070902'] If I got spoken to like that he would have been on his arse within 30 seconds [/quote] The thing is that he was a karate black belt as well as being a pretty tough kid from Brooklyn to start with, so you might have struggled with that. Another reason why he could get away with acting like that, as well as being a renowned as being arguably the best drummer in the world (or at least the best known in his field) and a famous bandleader.

I believe that Art Blakey once said that Buddy Rich had great technique but "couldn't swing unless he was on the end of a rope"!

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1465483660' post='3068644'] Personally, I'm not impressed with any of these YouTube clips featuring young children playing instruments. Can the child read charts, manage and direct a band, travel and play 280 gigs a year? Buddy was a pioneer. Blue [/quote] [quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1465484724' post='3068660'] But surely the point of those videos is that the child is exhibiting prodigious talent and/or skill on their instrument for somebody of [i]x [/i]years - not to make direct comparisons between them and Buddy Rich...? [/quote] I think that the videos are particularly pertinent given that Rich himself first came to fame as a child prodigy drummer 'Traps the boy wonder'...!

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1465443441' post='3068253'] Caring, in this case is in the ear of the beholder. You heard swearing, I heard love and passion. Blue [/quote] Remember that all this love and passion used to occur when he had run out of dope, fallen out with his missus or had an outsider around who he wanted to impress with how tough he was!

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1465359278' post='3067493'] I do thInk there is a cultural difference here, spent a lot of time in US and I do think we could use /a bit/ of the "so try harder" mentality /sometimes/ - doesn't make getting medieval on someone ok though and profanity unneeded [/quote] I don't think that there is a cultural difference at al. There are plenty of bullies over here, I've met them at work and even been in bands with a couple (not fun) and even been accused of it myself (to a far far lesser extent of course). I mentioned Steve Vai before as an example of a band leader who refuses to accept anything but the very best, yet still manages to be a decent human being - there is no need to be like Buddy Rich unless your an overly aggressive little a-hole who knows he can get away with it. By all accounts Rich was hated in the business.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1465339174' post='3067437'] Isn't the context that that band had just played a crap set. And that shouldn't happen at that level. Blue [/quote] I thought the whole point was that the pianist used to secretly tape his many tantrums, which happened on a regular basis regardless of quality of the performance. Didn't he famously threaten to sack a trombone player because he took issue with his beard?? I thought that a lotof people in the industry thought that hegot away with that behaviour because he was a black belt karate. He used to room with Sinatra in the early days in the Tommy Dorsey band and apparently they came to blows on a number of occasions. There is a story that Sinatra paid several of his 'acquaintances' to beat the sh1t out of Rich after one occasion. Despite this they remained lifelong friends...!

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1465332307' post='3067335'] I wish I had someone kicking my butt like Buddy. Blue [/quote] You really wouldn’t…! Buddy Rich was a violent racist bully, hated by virtually everybody in the business. Read what Walter Trout had to say about meeting him and his treatment of a fan who dared to ask him to sign something in a drum store. There are plenty of demanding band leaders around who can still function as nice guys yet still insist on the highest standards, including people like Steve Via. Rich was a different proposition all together, a very unpleasant individual…

[quote name='markmcclelland' timestamp='1465122506' post='3065401'] And yes. The line between pro and, as you say, semi pro, is definitely become more and more blurry. Even semi pro, in many cases, can be a very worthy achievement. Think semi-pro footballer. I'm sure there are many Sunday leaguers on here of quite a high level who still never got anywhere near being able to get paid for kicking a ball around. [/quote] Sorry to keep picking your musings apart with minor points, but… The line below semi-pro footballers and the professionals is very distinct. Anybody playing non-league football, yet alone Sunday league, by the time they are 20 is doing so because they are not good enough to play professionally. Anyone who slips through the net (such as Ian Wright) very quickly comes to the attention of the big League teams. The rewards are so great (even at the relatively lower levels) that virtually anyone at the level would turn professional in a heartbeat. The same is not true in music where the financial rewards are a lot less certain and where it is not so clearly delineated who is good and who isn’t. You can often see bands with semi-pros paying alongside pro musicians and there are plenty of semi-pros who are far better players than many pros. Even at the highest level, there are many sought after session players who will quite happily admit to having technical limitations but play with the very best as they have great feel and the knack of knowing what to play at any given time. You don’t have to play like Jaco to be in AC/DC…! Also, being in the right place at the right time has a lot more to do with success in music than it does with football…

When we were on holiday last year in the Algarve we got friendly with a local band and saw them a few times. We noticed that they generally played a set mainly for holiday makers that you would recognise easily over here, but when they played their Saturday night gig at a club with quite a few locals there they played four or five songs in Portuguese in the final set (3 hour show) at the end of the night. Obviously this was a thing because it went down really well with the natives.

[quote name='Wonky2' timestamp='1465005143' post='3064631'] Why thank you pete, im glad you could decifer my dodgy typing and spelling, including refering to your good self as oete. [/quote] Smartphones are a wonderful thing...!

[quote name='markmcclelland' timestamp='1464982101' post='3064469'] Thanks a lot Pete. I really am appreciating all the thoughts and wishes and good natured disagreements. And yes Mental - and I don't believe that's your real name. Let's not open that an of worms. I will give one thought here though regarding what you said, I believe you have to act and think like a professional to become one. Not like the reply I received from a singer once who wasn't pulling her weight and I told her to be more professional about it. She said, 'Mark, I'll start acting like a professional when we start getting paid.' There was only one way that was going to end after that although we remained great friends. [/quote] To be fair, your singer friend does have a professional attitude in some respects - or at least an attitude that many professional musicians have! The phrase "a £50 gig gets a £50 preparation" is certainly something I have heard many times before. Of course they will always want to raise their game if they are going to play to an appreciative audience or especially if there are going to be some of their peers in that audience! I was once asked to dep for a showband playing WMCs while their regular bass player went on holiday. They didn't confirm the dates to me for so long that I ended up being busy and not being able to do it, so they asked my flat mate at the time (also a good bass player) to play the dates. He didn't have much time to learn the set but they said not to worry, 'we can go through the anything that you're not sure of at the soundcheck'. However, as soon as they got to the first gig they got stuck into the bar and just said "don't worry, they're more bothered about the bingo than the band here - as long as we don't get paid off we couldn't give a #*$%". Bear in mind this band contained a few really good pro players. Sometimes a professional attitude is not what you think it might be...!

[quote name='Wonky2' timestamp='1465000207' post='3064622'] First of all as mark aNd oete have rightly said, its just a discussion, its not a trade off of digs or one up Manship.... Far from it As i said, its interesting and we all have different views, doesnt make any one of them difinitive. In answer to your question, or "suspicion" at one time, playing bass was my sole source of income for a period of approx 3 1/2 years. Thats an income which was enough to pay a mortgage and put food on the table, oh and pay tax. But It had its difficulties and with kids came along i needed stability instead of a famine or feast. So, first of all came a part time job, then eventually with reluctance, a 9-5. I did continue to play both live and studio on a semi pro basis. I was paid for what id did which was both regular and one off appointments, but this wasnt my primary source of income, hence my view semi pro. These days i do it for the shear love of it, money has no relevance in the matter, im happy if my exoenses are covered..... but would point out the frequency is low, but one that suits me just fine. So, that said i do feel i have a degree of insight on it, albiet my own personal one..... I guess on reading my 1st post imwas wrong in say pro equates to SINGLE source of income, i guess the more appropriate view would be PRIMARY source of income. That meaning your income from playing is your bread and butter and your bar job, helps support that. When the balance tips the other way and your bar work is your primary income supplemented with gig money or session fee's, well..... Your a barman who's a semi pro bass player. These comments are'nt designed to make me "feel better" , id also point out that ive never until put under "suspicion" talked in any way about my level of competance or history of work, my comments are in no way suggesting semi pro's ,part timers , guys having fun ,what ever you want to call them, are ant the less competant, again, my original point stated non of this "pro" mullarkey suggests any degree of competence. Ive played with some guys who do it for fun or after they finish the day job who are truly remarkebly talented musicians. Ive also played with "pro's" who are seriously defficient in areas.... Just to confirm, these days, i do it for the love of it....the day job, life, kids, poor health are all now a part of my life, the gigs or playing i do, i really do enjoy, which is more than can be said for some of the tosh i played for money. I couldn't really give a hoot what anyone calls them selves, all of the above was merely my view in a friendly open discussion. Put me in the bedroom noodler catagory if you like, im good with that [/quote] Great post - you are of course completely right.

It's just people pontificating and talking nonsense on an Internet forum - enjoy your holiday dude!

[quote name='markmcclelland' timestamp='1464858266' post='3063142'] It's just a professional gig. Sorry Pete. I'm disagreeing with you on that point. . [/quote] I wouldn't worry about that too much, it’s a moot point at best. After all, when all is said and done, it is a paying gig – just don’t go and get a mortgage on the strength of it…! As it gets more and more difficult to make a living playing music, what defines a ‘professional musician' is an interesting question and I would say that the line between a pro and a certain type of semi-pro is becoming more blurred. Like lots of those in the modern creative industries, many musicians are having more strings to their bow to ensure that they can make a living. As a final point, I would mention that the people I know who make the most money from music are those who write and record music – songs and incidental music for music libraries. Perhaps that is something worth considering??

[quote name='Wonky2' timestamp='1464826572' post='3063010'] Interesting views on the "pro" subject ...... My two pen'eth I think the important thing to remember, the thing some get confused, be "pro" is not a degree of competance or proficiency. Itsnot about where you play, for whom, or for how long.... Its about it being your proffession. Your SINGLE source of income. That can take many shapes, live work, teaching, cruise ships, studio sessions, tv work, deping etc etc, it not important where when or how, the key is that in essence you play your bass to earn your living. A proffesion. This means paying tax, even being a registered business. If you are not very good, have poor equipment, are unreliable, inflexible etc ... You will quickly realise that earning a living is difficult as you have three main allies, reputation ,reccomendation and repeat business. If you jeporidise any of the 3 with any of the afore mentioned defficiencies, well, earning enough to live on as a SOLE INCOME, is gonna be impossible. If you need to support this income with a "job" of any other kind than bass playing, well then you bass playing work is a semi proffesion, ie, you earn part of your income from another source. Many weekend giggers with 9-5 jobs are well seasoned experienced musicians for sure, semi pro... Part timers if you like. Again, its not a degree of competance and does not necessarrily dictate large pay checks. Allthough you can appreciate the highly competant are in higher demand ( thats not to say demand is high !), attract more formal appointments/arrangments and can dictate better rates. Sorry im rambling.... This isnt aimed or directed at anyone nor a is it a comment on marks hard work and determination, just a veiw having read many on the subject..... Keep at it mark maybe you can support your frelance stuff with a regular corporate/ function band ? Coukd provide the regular income you need ? Pays better than pubs for sure... If you cant find a slot in one, form one ! With the right direction 3 nights a week is not unfeasible... The calander soon fills up for a polished outfit Wonky [/quote] I think that you are pretty much on the money there. However I think that you have to accept that many guys you would think of as definite 'pros' also have an income stream outside of just playing. A pro drummer I know used to work for a PA company when he wasn't gigging and also used to buy and sell comic books to boost his income. He now has a part time office job for the first time in his life (in his 50s) and is really happy because he doesn't need to rely on function gigs, which he hated. I believe that Rick Parfitt used to work on building sites when Quo were off the road for years...!