BigBeefChief

[quote name='dlloyd' post='391590' date='Jan 26 2009, 11:58 AM']I think it's more likely the other way around. Those who are impressed by w***ery are more likely to learn the parts of theory that will enable them to replicate it. It's sad that people are being turned off theory by an unjustified association with bad music.[/quote] Maybe. I think that those people (like me) who enjoy comparitely "simple" music don't have the drive to learn theory in the same way a Jazz fan would.

[quote name='AM1' post='391556' date='Jan 26 2009, 11:37 AM']You still maintain that there are no benefits from reading/theory.[/quote] No I don't. There's loads of benefits. I don't dislike theory. I DON'T DISLIKE THEORY!

[quote name='Eight' post='391551' date='Jan 26 2009, 11:30 AM']Since bands don't publish their "training" on the album sleeve notes, its pretty hard to know who has done what and what influence its had. The ones I picked out are bands I like that I happen to have read about - or in the case of Nightwish was lucky enough to get to speak to briefly. All people are saying here is that there's not evidence to write-off music theory; just as now most people don't write-off musicians just because they haven't studied it.[/quote] I haven't written off music theory. I've studied music theory myself. I find it interesting! I maintain that learning to read isn't for everyone. Call me a quitter or whatever, but I have enough challenges in my life without having to go home and beat myself up over not being able to read dots! I do think the more theory and technical ability you have, the more likely you are to slip into w***ery. You do it because you can. I don't think its a coincedence that classically untrained musicians appeal to my pub rock sensibilites. The more technically focussed genres (I count Jazz and Progressive Metal in this club) do nothing for me.

[quote name='Eight' post='391531' date='Jan 26 2009, 11:12 AM']Because you don't like Radiohead then that proves your point? They're not exactly small time and his CV reads like a dream for most musicians. What are you looking for here exactly? Define 'great' and I'll have another think.[/quote] Doesn't have to be great, just someone good! Think non-pretentious. I don't like music for the middle classes. No doubt there are a small number of classically trained musicians I like out there. There's got to be. But they're few and far between.

[quote name='Eight' post='391514' date='Jan 26 2009, 11:01 AM']Great depends on your tastes but the first one I can think of - Jonny Greenwood from Radiohead. Classically trained. Not 100% what you mean by 'formally'.[/quote] Thank you for proving my point.

Please point me in the direction of a formally trained musician who is currently producing great music.

[quote name='owen' post='391300' date='Jan 25 2009, 10:23 PM']Reading is cool. It means I get paid. I realise that it is pretty vulgar to talk about money, but.............. you know................. I like to eat and have a warm place to sleep. "I want to be an actor" "Here is the script" "No, it's cool, just give me the DVD, I'll pick it up"[/quote] I don't disagree. Contrary to what a lot of session musicians think, we don't all want to be you!

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='391188' date='Jan 25 2009, 08:26 PM']It's not just jazzers who read music. Take me, for example... I can play my cello or double bass in an orchestra, string quartet, opera, show, etc... I can play my violin in all the above situations... I can play the piano, accompanying my pupils... I can play my electric basses/double basses in jazz bands, shows, big bands, wind orchestras, rock bands, tribute bands, etc, etc. [b]All of the above earns me money. [i]Because I learned to read music[/i].[/b] Now I'm not saying that all of us have to do the above & I understand full well that there are hobbyists who want to play for fun. Fine. Nothing wrong with that at all. But accusing music readers of being only into jazz is a bit rich [b]tBBC[/b] to say the least! I'll leave you with one little thought... Reading opens doors. You can play things you never dreamed of playing. And... You don't have to memorise things over an excruciating period, either. Think on it. Rich.[/quote] As a pro, learning to read is great. It pays your mortgage. I have no desire to be a pro (in the non-band sense). I hate too much music to ever be a session guy. And I'm crap. I can clearly see the doors it opens, but not everyone wants those doors opened! I'd like to be able to read, but not so much as to invest the effort to learn. No one in my band reads, so my knowledge would be wasted on them. And I also accept that readers don't just play jazz (they also play fusion, cheesy muzak-style funk and Prog metal!) and my comment is slightly tongue in cheek. My point being that modern, technically/theory accomplished musicians tend to produce terrible original music (I don't doubt their ability to play someone elses music though).

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='391175' date='Jan 25 2009, 08:16 PM']I know and value some theory and I'll often play a root note, sometimes eight times in one bar, and sometimes for many bars consecutively. When you call a note the 'root note' I'd say that is theory. You might not want to improve your knowledge of theory but don't pretend that you don't have any knowledge of theory at all.[/quote] I have no dislike of theory. I find a lot of it quite interesting. I actually know more than you'd probably expect. My whole point is that I learn what I want to learn/find interesting and don't learn what bores me. I've heard Bilbo for example say "you've got to learn to read people". Well, no you don't. If you want to be a session guy, then yeah, learn to read. I don't want to be a session guy. I'm a hobbyist. Just do what you want to do. As an aside, I do believe the more technically proffecient and steaped in theory you become, the more w***y your music becomes. That's why so many technically great musicians are only liked by other musicians. They lose sight of what makes a great tune. Now I'm not a big Madness fan, but I remember Suggs once saying how he was asked my a journalist how they got their great sound. He replied by saying they weren't good enough to play any other way. I have a method of assessing if a band are sh*t before even listening to them. Have a look at its members and see if any of them are on this list: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alumni_of_Berklee_College_of_Music"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_alumn...ollege_of_Music[/url] If they are, stay well clear.

Played some pub/venue in Chelmsford. Was our first gig outside of Laaaandon. Was a cool venue, looked like some converted stables totally seperate from a quite normal looking pub. Was a mod(ish) tonight, think it was a regular thing for Chelmsford Scooter Club and was donr in association with them. For once with played with a couple of bands with a similar(ish) sound to us. Usually we get stuck on with some "I hate my parents" shouty music. Crowd of 150 maybe. My playing was pretty sh*t though. Had to drive so was my first gig totally sober and was not fun. Warmed up towards the end, but struggled to get into it without a few beers. I find 4/5 is just perfect. Like darts. Also, agreed to let the other bands use my amp, which meant I had to hang around right to the end. Last band were decent though so wasn't a chore. The crowd seemed to like us and we even got some free drink tickets. Great - free orange juice. What a waste. Was a good warm up for the Water Rats on Friday.

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='390866' date='Jan 25 2009, 12:08 PM']This wouldn't be the case if those who spent their time studying theory actually churned out some decent music! All I hear from you lot is God-awful jazz, cheesy muzak style funk, or the sex-offender of the music world - fusion.[/quote] * Just realised I've left out the biggest offender of the lot - "Progressive" Metal. I'd rather go down on a tramp than listen to that nonsense. Music to paint Space Marines to.

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='390265' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:51 AM']And the less you know, or admit to knowing then the more credability you have, it's crazy.[/quote] This wouldn't be the case if those who spent their time studying theory actually churned out some decent music! All I hear from you lot is God-awful jazz, cheesy muzak style funk, or the sex-offender of the music world - fusion. Maybe its coincidence that the majority of artists that I like aren't theory geeks. But maybe its not. Learning in itself isn't the villain here. It's the fact that those of you who have the dicipline to learn theory don't have the dicipline to just play the root when required. Typical jazzers. Always showing off.

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='389850' date='Jan 23 2009, 05:49 PM']I play music of all genres, including jazz, yes.[/quote] That's where studying theory gets you kids. Just say NO!

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='389824' date='Jan 23 2009, 05:26 PM']Learning theory cannot possibly hold you back, and basically you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.[/quote] Do you play Jazz?

[quote name='AM1' post='389635' date='Jan 23 2009, 03:04 PM']I am another advocate of reading music. But there has to be a balance. I will go completely against what Bilbo said - if you focus TOO much on reading, it's easy to become a note-reading chimp and lose creative ability for improvisation. I have noticed this with a lot of classical musicians. Equally, I have met a few musicians, whom can't read a note, but are fantastic musicians. With reading, you can get to the point where you can't pick up an instrument and just play along to music, without having notes written down. THAT is not a good thing...anyone can become either a note reading chimp or a bassline jukebox chimp. So I wouldn't choose one learning methodology over the other, but rather, combine them both. A musician who can both improvise and who can read has all the tools at their disposal to cope with just about any situation. These are classic excuses and self-justifications for not putting in some work and seeing the rewards. Hardly anyone is really a "natural" musician, most people have to work at some element of it, be it timing, practical playing, learning songs, etc. You say you'll never be great - how do you know, if you put no effort into it? It is surprising what can be achieved by being stubborn and determined. But if you write yourself off before you even try, you'll never find out, this is really sad to dismiss yourself. It really does not take long to learn to read music. I am not saying this is the case with you - but I know loads of people that say they don't have time to do stuff - but they watch loads of TV. If they got rid of it, voila - they instantly have many extra hours in the week, to do constructive stuff. Life IS learning - maybe this "punk" interpretation is just another self-justifying mechanism to avoid challenging yourself. What have you got to lose? By standing still and justifying it in your own way, the only person losing out is YOU.[/quote] It's not an excuse at all. Of course I could learn to read, but the importance of doing so does not equal the effort I'd have to put in. Bass is a hobby for me. I know that to be great takes work. I work 13 hour days. The last thing I want to do is go home and study. Being a great bass player isn't worth losing sleep over for me! I've kinda got a policy with my free time: I don't do what I don't want to do. Its brilliant. My missus goes to her friends weddings by herself, I don't show up for birthdays, I never feel obliged to do anything. I get the impression that there's a lot of guys on here who almost feel guilty for not being better/reading better/ practicing more - what's that all about? It's a bit of fun. Everyone knows "making it" has very little to do with skill (and I don't count being Michael Manring-piece as making it - I mean proper making it, like Sting or Fred West). One day my life may be different. I may have free time, in which case who knows? I kinda like doing my own thing, I'm gradually improving and I'm happy with that. Since when has stickin' in to the man been about reading dots??!!! Whoah Yeah! Who's with me? Let's ROCK! (High five, High five)

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='389594' date='Jan 23 2009, 02:28 PM']What I liked about Punk (with hindsight; I hated all that aggression) was the ethos of questioning everything and challenging everything, sacred cows included. In my experience, many of those that took to it were intelligent and politically aware (unlike the yoof of today who wouldn't know a fascist if it goose-stepped up a saluted); the questioning of educational values (e.g the Oxbridge monopoly) was well overdue and their flagrant hostility to the class system was refreshing - basically, if you went to Oxford, you would get the breaks, even if you were stupid! Viewing the phenomenon 32 years later, I think it is important to remember that, when you clear out all of the chaff, it is possible to ditch the wheat as well. Learning about things is not the problem here and I don't think it ever was. Its what you do when you have the knowledge that learning delivers that counts. I actually think jazz can the most 'punk' of all musics; it can be irreverant and angry just as much as real punk was - it is just a bit more subtle about it. And it can be enormous fun but in a satisfying not a purile way.[/quote] Don't get me wrong, I'm not punk's biggest fan (although I like a lot of it - but none of this modern, tatoos on the forearms to piss off "mommy" sh*t), its more the attitude that a number of rock/rock'n'roll players have towards music that I like.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='389538' date='Jan 23 2009, 01:30 PM']Is this because you are looking for affirmation (not a criticism; I know I am!!)? You like them because they share the same core values as you; do it for fun, don't take it too seriously, don't be 'professional', if its too much like work.... etc. Do you like these people because of your lack of motivation, not the other way around? Just a thought (if I have one, it has to come out )[/quote] I tend to like simplicity, and I think those who can't play anything more sophisticated tend to keep it simple. Perhaps I also admire the slightly punk attitudes of those who don't go down a formal route of musical education. Lets face it, winging it is always cooler! Sounds harsh but deep down I always kinda feel that learning is for geeks! OK I went to University, but I made it a point of principle not to actually learn anything.

People are different. Some people play to develop. Some people play for a laugh. Some people want to be pros. Some are happy playing in their bedroom. I think its very unlikely I'll ever learn to read dots. A number of reasons. I don't have the time, I'm never gonna be a pro, my natural musical ability means I'll never be great, and I play for fun. When practice becomes a chore, then it aint for me. I have discipline in my proffessional life, I don't want it in my free time. I know some theory, it gets me buy, I quite enjoy learning some of it. But if I'm honest with myself, I don't have the discipline or desire to learn to read. As an aside, my lack of motivation to read may be linked to the fact that the majority of the musicians who I admire most aren't the worlds most profficient readers.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='389003' date='Jan 22 2009, 08:41 PM']I am always suspicious of people that advocate ignorance. It jut doesn't compute.[/quote] But ignorance keeps you away from Jazz. Never a bad thing. Believe it or not, Bilbo used to play heavy metal until someone dared him to learn E Phrygian. Now look at him. Poor jazz bastard.

[quote name='Russ' post='388706' date='Jan 22 2009, 04:32 PM']modern punk[/quote] An oxymoron surely?

[quote name='artisan' post='357912' date='Dec 18 2008, 01:51 PM']alternately if we practice at Bash studios in Harrogate i use their totally sh*te [b]Carsboro bass bomber [/b]& man is it sh*te,but at least it saves me lugging my rig about.[/quote] The Carlsbro bass bomber is genuinely the best amp I've ever played through. People think I'm taling the piss when I say that, but to me it makes my bass sound exactly like a bass should. I love everything about it.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='359011' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:56 PM']P.S. AM, I like your posts even if I don't always agree, nice to have some more intelligent thought on here.[/quote] Alex, I'm sorry, I know I haven't been posting as much recently, but I've not gone anywhere.

[quote name='katana_manatee' post='358974' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:12 PM']Fair enough, it can take a while to get used to Jazz[/quote] Like anal sex I suppose. I wonder if Carol Vorderman likes Jazz?