The fasting showman

There's an interesting Guitar Player magazine article I have (somewhere!) from '82 where the galactico guitar tech Alan Rogan is contrasting how Keith Richards prefers old guitars and Pete Townsend prefers new and the related maintenance issues for their respective gear. So there you have two guitarists that would historically be lumped together in terms of era and legendary status, possibly even musically, yet that have contrasting taste. Is it down to, in that example, an inspiring guitar versus a rock solid guitar with no structural issues? Much as I've said elsewhere that I find new music shops boring my tastes have changed since I've favoured Stingrays as my main bass, I prefer a new bass over an old one. Not that I can bloody afford to change any of my gear now anyway! Martin

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392830144' post='2373240'] That part of the World has always been a bastion of heavy rock music. Sabbath were, of course, one of the originators of that sound, and countless other bands from the West Midlands have followeed in their wake. There are literally too many associations to list. On the subject of Stafford, does anyone else remember what big events the concerts were at the New Bingley Hall were back in the 1970's? It really was one of the top venues in the country, and I remember bands like Sabbath, Rush, Bob Marley and the Wailers, Queen, David Bowie ect doing shows there that people travelled from all over the country to attend. [/quote]I saw Rainbow at 'the cowshed' back in '83 Mr Dingus, Lita Ford as the support act. Funny that I'd forgot about that venue until I read the Sean Mayes Bowie tour diary where it mentions it as a date on the 'Lodger' tour or thereabouts. Hard to imagine heroes of mine like George Murray and Dennis Davis in my neck of the woods. I wonder if Mr White Cloud above was living in Stafford when Ozzy was getting his solo stuff together with Bob Daisley down the road in Eccleshall?

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392733522' post='2372101'] Martin, having read your words I would say that you valued it more than [i]you realised[/i] at the time.... [/quote]I think you are right Sir, no matter what a deluded poseur I was in the mid '90s you can't ever forget first hearing Master of Reality can you? 'Into the void' and all... In the Midlands (I live in Ye Merrie olde Lichfield, but have lived in Brum on and off) there's so many links to people who knew Sabbath either at School or via families and the massive factories, IMI for instance, in the Witton/ Aston area. Lots of ex-pat Brummies here in the sticks. I was in a band with a bloke who's uncle had road managed them way back when. I'm sure lots of people could say the same thing. I believe (could be wrong) that Sabbath's first gig as Black Sabbath was in a now long gone pub in Lichfield. Others will know for sure.

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392732642' post='2372079'] Yes, we have digressed somewhat. That must have been an intimidating experience...Iommi, in the context of rock history, is at the top of the food chain (with others of course). [/quote]Yes I saw the man himself too during the course of the week there, whilst being perfectly amiable he too was imposing! Taller than me anyway. I remember when Sabbath were rehearsing at Rich Bitch studios in Brum (91 ish?) seeing Vinnie Appice standing in a door way towering over me, again a perfectly friendly bloke from memory. I wish I'd valued seeing these people more back then, daft really. Martin

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392723201' post='2371919'] Birmingham has always been a very bass-orientated city, and certainly was back in the 1980's. I remember walking round Birmingham on a snowy day looking for the Bass Place ( a lot of interesting secondhand stuff in there , from what I remember), and Musical Exchanges, which had loads of everything , new and second hand, and was absolutely brilliant in those days. I totally agree with your assessment of 1970's Fenders, too - £200 for a Precision , and around £300 for a Jazz Bass. I have upset a few people and had a few rows with folks on Basschat when I have tried to suggest that ,as instruments to use as working tools, these basses are not worth in excess of two grand and that it is like paying brand new BMW money for an old clapped out Ford Escort, but it seems many people are not receptive to that message. John Diggins made me a custom bass at the end of the 1980's and it was fantastic, with the most impressive woodworking of any bass I have ever owned at any price, Unfortunately, at the peak of John's success in the 1980's his quality control went very seriously awry, as he is the first to admit, and he had some very disappointed customers, such as our own White Cloud, who received seriously substandard basses as a result . I always found John to be a lovely bloke, too,as well as a conscientious and supremely skilled craftsman , and he was very unhappy about the situation he had gotten into with being under so much pressure to satisfy demand for his basses. He seemed relieved to get back to building the basses himself, the way had done originally . [/quote]Great post Dingus. I sometimes wonder with me though whether there's an element of sour grapes relating to '70s Fenders; my old de-mudbuckered Tele bass converted into a P-bass probably genuinely is worth £300 and I am forced to wear it around my neck (Ancient Mariner reference) to atone for all the would be now valuable Fenders I 'modified' from reading Guitar Player magazine too much back in the '80s! To quote Joe Barden, I've a lot to tell St Peter about regarding trashing guitars... I do struggle when I'm in some music boutique and I hear a sales man waxing lyrical over a 2 grand 14 pound '78 p bass! Back to Sabbath, I recorded in DEP studios in Brum back in '97 and Mr Iommi was recording there at the time. I vividly remember a very flashy Jaydee style / SG with a headstock like a Supernatural on a stand in one of the rooms. Very imposing.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392670287' post='2371497'] Yes, quite. I can't really tell if it is because I have become more blase` about the whole thing , but guitar shops are nowhere near as alluring a proposition as they once were. The depressing uniformity of both the stock and the establishments themselves bears little or no relation to the tantalising excitement of going to guitar shops in my youth. One long-gone little independent shop where I lived when I was growing up regularly had basses from JayDee, Ashley Pangbourne , Overwater, Vigier ect, as did its' competitor on the other side of the town centre, and both shops had staff who were bass players and were as enthusiastic about basses as you were. It was a thrill just to see those kind of basses in the flesh, even if I couldn't afford to buy one at that time, kind of like looking at sculptures in an art gallery. Even if you don't have one at home, you could enjoy the beauty and experience some joy from that. [/quote]I totally agree with Dingus and White Cloud. I started playing bass in such a great era regarding the shops and the stock carried ('82 to say '88) in Birmingham. I well remember seeing the Superyob guitar (or did I dream it?) before Musical Exchanges moved to Snowhill. I also remember being unjustifiably sniffy about the many John Birch 'copies' as I then saw them, I didn't see their true worth, or the value in the music of Slade, Jim Lea's great bass playing etc. I think starting bass playing back in the '80s has forever altered my perspective on '70s Fenders, much as I like them they will always be a £300 instrument to me. Also I'm always more attracted to EBMM 'Rays due to the impact they made on me as a kid when they burst onto the market around '87 with their boiled sweet finishes. Back to the OP, from having John Diggins work on my old wreck of a Fender I've seen some of the newly made Iommi SGs up close and the workmanship is fantastic, the stainless steel metalwork in contrast to the dense black paintwork looks great. It seems a shame that a corresponding Geezer EB never got established, or a John Birch like Jim Lea's say for example. I can't praise John Diggins highly enough as a woodworker, or as a bloke! Always been a great help to me with my gear. Martin

Much as I know it isn't a sound that would work for me (I'm too damned soft) I think he sounds great using an EB3, he really digs in. Was the Fender Mustang ever used anywhere other than on the Whistle Test? The 'Moonage Daydream' book by Mick Rock and Bowie sheds some light on backline of that era, there's definitely a Marshall Major and 4x15 in use amongst other Marshalls.

[quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1392633105' post='2370760'] Don't know if TB was taught a brass instrument but John Entwhistle was an accomplished French Horn player I believe. [/quote]Had a look at 'Hunky Dory'. He played the trumpet on 'Kooks'.

[quote name='Hobbayne' timestamp='1392628845' post='2370672'] Is this the song where Trevor goes to the chorus too early? I'm sure if that was the case they could have dropped the bass in on an overdub? [/quote]I believe leaving errors in songs is something that Bowie was fond of, he cited the Jean Genie clanger in Sean Mayes' diary of the tour for 'Lodger' and 'Stage'. Possibly why you've got all the musicians swapped onto different instruments on the much later 'Boys keep swinging'. Some great lines from Trevor Bolder though, I've always loved 'John, I'm only dancing' for the walking on the chorus. A very musical player, wasn't he taught a brass instrument as a kid?

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1392588130' post='2370472'] Have a look on youtube then, there are quite a few videos of him playing it live at that speed in F. [/quote]Yep, after I typed it I did...right you are! Brilliant isn't he? How could I doubt him, I always preferred his tone in that early P bass phase and I guess that's what's on 'Rhythm stick'.

I'm a great fan of Norman Watt-Roy and all of the Dury stuff and can play a version of Rhythm stick that passes muster just about if you don't listen too closely; sadly being of a certain age whenever I hear anything in F containing very tidy 16th notes and a great groove I always think of the dial marked 'varispeed' and wonder if it was played in E. Old cynic that I am, sorry!

[quote name='The Admiral' timestamp='1391367231' post='2356328'] I've still got some copies of Making Music on my bookshelves. I wonder what happened to it - subsumed into another mag I presume? I'll have them out and scan som pages. [/quote]Yep, me too. I've got the one with a review of the Steinberger bass, Hiwatt Maxwatt (the real one CP103) and a John Entwistle interview! Feeling very misty eyed about the music shops back then in early '80s Birmingham...I'll stop at this point!

[quote name='squire5' timestamp='1391347323' post='2356011'] Yeah I thought that this would stir a few memories.I cant remember how it was possible to get the catalogue in the first place.Whether it was mail order or whatever,but I do remember having recurring editions.I know it was during the 60s when I used to read it because I was still at school at the time, and I would always have it in my schoolbag and me and other kids would pore over it during breaks.Ah heady days! [/quote]I recall a mate at school sent off for it (circa '82) from a Bell's ad in the Exchange and Mart. Wish I still had a copy, 'Making Music' magazine (A5 sized) was the other source of out of reach gear to read about.

[quote name='ern500evo' timestamp='1390909994' post='2351072'] The wheels are probably the weakest part of the Mag, I've got one and 2 of my friends have owned them, all suffered with the wheels falling apart. I left mine at our rehearsal space and was gonna order some new ones, then someone decided to move it by tilting it sideways and dragging it, the result being the castor bracket went through the bottom of the cab, so it's now sat being unused and unloved with f***ed castors and a hole in the bottom! [/quote]Yep, the wheels are pretty rubbishy. I guess that's what I mean about getting one 2nd hand, little things like that add up so I wouldn't pay too much for one if possible.

Hi Andy, My Mag has got a tiltback and wheels like an SVT 810. Regarding specs, and I'm really out of my depth here, I think the cabs can cope with low frequencies but not necessarily reproduce them. I think (ducks for cover!) that the essence of the 8x10 is the massive punch you get at 100Hz upwards and the tightening up of frequencies below that. Hopefully, somebody more qualified will clarify. Cheers, Martin

Hi Andy, As an owner of a Mag810, and somebody very pleasantly surprised with how good it sounds (to me and I've owned lots of gear and been disappointed with a lot of it!) I wouldn't go for one brand new as the value plummets like a stone. Mine cost me £99, and it was 8/10 condition very smart. This isn't due to me being a shrewd buyer or anything it's just that the guy advertised it badly; he omitted key words like 'bass' and 'cab' etc. There's one on ebay now in Cardiff that probably won't go above £200, that's what I'd go for. You'll be able to move it back on if you don't like it at that price. I only bought my 8x10 as I was playing in a band at the time where the bass needed to assert itself to sort the overall sound out, vocal PA covers band in big pubs where the bass has to fight it's own corner. Plus now I live in a house with a garage so storage is no big deal, I've not found getting it around a problem. I've been very happy in the bands I've used it in and the bands have been positive about the sound too, not degenerated into a volume war, just kept the bass at drum kit level; rock solid low E, nothing running out of steam. I think if you've got the space, and you drop on one cheap, I think an 8x10 can be useful. They are so out of vogue at the moment they can be bought for next to nothing. The Ampeg I had and the Ashdown I have now are just big chipboard boxes with basic 10's in them but overall they work well, just don't pay too much. A few good ones on here at the mo, the Trace 8x10 (Celestions) and the Marshall VBC 810 too. I think Derek Forbes' old Ampeg was on for sub £500 wasn't it? Check out Youtube if you want to see that one in use back in the '80s! All the best, Martin

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1390597881' post='2347501'] its very nice and orange lol that hartke's a bit to old liking the look of the swr, but have played thru ashdown cabs at our practice space and was impressed, and the mag 810 could be grabbed new for about 450, i know i cant take video online to seriously but its something to go on. andy [/quote]As I said earlier I've been very pleasantly surprised by my Mag 810, not a dark sounding cab by any means and pairs very well with my old GKs. There's always one on ebay for £200, should be easy to sell on if you don't like it. I'm finding the nearfield sound great on stage, I run it at the volume of the drums and don't have to work the head hard at all to generate low end. My old SVT setup used to project the sound past me and only sounded great in the crowd but I'm finding this rig relatively consistent around a room.

Hi, I bought an Ashdown Mag 810 off ebay for £99 last year and I've been very happy with it. I owned an SVT810 around ten years ago and I must say that the cheap Ashdown might be different but certainly not worse than my old Ampeg, it's hard to be precise as I'm using a different head with it (GK800RB/400RB as opposed to Mk1 SVT). The low price may have clouded my judgement but I think it sounds good, I often use various 810s at rehearsal and I think it holds up well. I've found it easy to lug around too once you are over your doorstep, just trundle it. Our cars are small too. I like the fact that the Ashdown has 8 ohm drivers, cheap to keep going at a push. I saw a Peavey 8x10 go for £80 on ebay last year, the 'get that bloody thing out the hall' syndrome! Martin

[quote name='gelfin' timestamp='1389969883' post='2340115'] As above re Bstring on talk bass. There are two, Bstring and B_string. The first is the one you want. He is also very helpful on the GK forum and does seem to have access to GK info (more than most). Another simple option would be to take an effects send from the 700 and connect to the return on the 600. Thus using the pre on the 7 and the power on the 6. [/quote]This is the easiest way to do it if you can get the tech to ensure that the mains transformer is still and only powering up the pre section of the 700. As Gelfin has stated from there onwards regarding connecting it up, a great quick fix. My way would be to get the tech to effectively swap the pre section of the 600 out and replace it with the 700 pre and front panel. You'll have what looks like a 700 then at least. I can't see a way around retaining the Speakons as the 600's power amp and thus rear panel are integrated. If I was you that's what I'd attempt...knowing how good 600s are though (not owned one myself but Bob Gallien has stated that they are the same parts as a US 400RB) I bet it will sound no better than the stock 600 which has got the GK RB voicing and eq anyway! The Backline 600s, for what you can get them for, are amazing value. Good luck and keep us posted! Martin

Hello Mick, This is all off the top of my head so bear with me! I can't see why it wouldn't be possible as the Backline 600 is similar to the old 400rb mk3, I'd have thought that what you want to do would work if you forego the biamp capabilities of the 700rb and higher power obviously. The RB series of amp seem to be modular, in the most basic sense preamp board bolted to the front panel power amp to the back, power transformer in the same place in the amp etc. More knowledgeable sources:- 1. Polar Audio as you know distribute GK stuff on this side of the Atlantic, they are very helpful with spares for new stuff but don't tend to dwell much on older amps. To be fair to them they helped me with changing my old 400rb to UK voltage (new tranny) but I've since heard that GK have hiked the replacement tranny prices, dunno how helpful they'll be. 2. I think on Talkbass there's a bloke called Bstring who knows his onions regarding GK, not sure of his relationship to the company. I think GK have there own forum also. 3. Your own tech if he (horrible phrase!) 'buys into' wanting to tackle the job, that's probably the long and short of it. I don't think it would be a hard job to do really but it's all down to his enthusiasm or lack of. Hope my ramblings have helped you, Martin

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1389481850' post='2334747'] Hagstrom were making a well-regarded 8-string back in the late 60s. [/quote]I believe that's the type of bass Joe Osbourne used on 'MacArthur park'

Great idea Phil, very good of you all to put your time into this. How about a 1x15 using a sub £100 driver (Eminence Beta-ish cost perhaps) that's smaller than 100 litres. I know that this is a crowded area of the market for secondhand cabs that fit this criteria but it would be great for anybody who wants to build a cab and start with a brand new driver rather than one that could be about to expire. All the best, Martin

Hi Marvin, What about the angled metal sections sold by B&Q, Wickes et al? They are with the wooden beading and mouldings/ timber dept. Should be easy to cut down, say 25mmx25mm L section into what you want. Martin

My favourite bass sound of this era is Pete Farndon on the 1st Pretenders album, the intro to 'Space invader' in particular. I think of the new pickups around the current USA Fender 62 is fine, more important is to not cut mids on your amp and to play hard. This is my favourite era of bass sounds when the recording technology of the day flattered bass to my ears and there seemed to be a desire to have bass guitar prominent in the mix (possibly thanks to disco maybe?); I seldom struggle to hear the bass parts of the players mentioned in this thread on a car stereo, mono radio etc.