molan

How about the black Celinder that used to be the main image on the site home page?

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1376650486' post='2177296'] I'd agree with that, sometimes being in the middle like me is tricky, I'm Mr average gear wise and ability wise I'd say, if I was worse I'd know my place, if I was better I'd be the nuts, I see musicman fitting neatly with that my classic is like a snobs Ray anyway [/quote] I've seen this a lot as well - you can get 'snobs' within tiny niches. I've heard a confirmed MM player saying that anything post Ernie Ball isn't a 'proper' Ray (he also explained to me, in great detail, about 'transition era' basses which I'd never heard about before) meanwhile I've also hear people say the Classic & Ltd Edition runs are over-priced and just a way for MM to make some easy money. Personally I try to approach everything with an open mind - there's very few basses that make me shun away from them. In fact some of our shop favourites have been relatively 'ordinary' and not expensive. There was a killer Fender Jazz Standard in for a while. Completely 'off the peg' US model and it played like a dream and sounded great. We priced it pretty highly thinking it might hang around so we could play it a bit longer but it got snapped up really quickly (by someone who came in to try it in person). Equally we've had some high end stuff that's left me completely cold but other people have loved - I think that's all part of the fun really

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1376646407' post='2177204'] Yep I'd go with that too, you can see from lots of peoples gear lists here that they have chosen not to buy an expensive bass but rather a few or more at lower prices but you do get a wiff of snobbery with these so called high end basses. I had around 7 grands worth of rays not that long ago, I just like them! I have played almost every brand going other than dingwall and Ritter so far, none were any better built than my classic5. [/quote] I find there's lots of snobbery both ways here on BC. You get it from high end owners who wouldn't touch a 'cheap' bass and then the reverse from people who would never pay over xxxx for a bass and think the people who buy the expensive ones are mad. Both camps like to take a pop at each other now and then and both get equally defensive. Not sure it's particularly 'positive' but it's pretty basic human nature to have some sort of attachment to things and a set of beliefs you want to defend. Working, albeit only a day or so a week, in a bass shop means I've seen a lot of instruments come through in all sorts of states of repair. There are some that are almost totally faultless and others that are often a bit wonky. Musicman is definitely somewhere in the middle. I've seen some real beauts but also some complete dogs. Two of the worst paint finishes I've ever seen have been on Rays and another had a neck like a banana and was near unplayable (truss rod was still working too!). A couple of Classics have been in recently and both were really nice and very well finished

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376642352' post='2177144'] Tell me honestly, if that particular bass had come into the shop in the condition that it appears to be in from the photos and video posted would you have tried to sell it? Or would it have been send straight back to Jimmy asking WTF he was playing at? I also find it strange in this day and age people still ask about the country of manufacture. I suppose for high volume factory made instruments it's still important, but I believe that for "hand made" luthier basses surely the person who made them is far more important that the country they come from? [/quote] I'll answer the second one first as it's easier Very customers in the shop show much interest in the luthiers that make any of the custom instruments. This is just as true for Ritter, Fodera, F Bass, Zon as it is for Alleva Coppolo. I find the instrument background fascinating and I know lots of history about each of them and what sort of people they are and how they operate etc. However it wouldn't be the first time I've watched someone's eyes glaze over if I'm explaining about the history and the builder. In fact the most common question about all the customs is about why they are so expensive and there's always some sort of view that the luthiers must be very well off (have you ever met a luthier who's well off - just doesn't happen!). Lots of people are really, really picky about country of manufacture. Some won't even look at an instrument that wasn't made in the USA. Made in the UK is often a deterrent as well. Canada also seen as 'not as good as a real American' bass too (someone said this to me just last week). In terms of selling a used show instrument I have to say it's a lot trickier. . . We try to check every single thing on every single bass that comes in but some stuff will always slip through the net. An obvious example is that we always check all electronics are working properly and without crackles etc. We don't routinely take control cavities apart unless we've identified a problem in the controls. To the best of my knowledge we've only ever sent one bass out that had a control cavity issue and we've learnt from that to make sure we assess pre-owned instruments to a higher degree than something new. Standard policy on anything pre-owned, ex-demo or show stock is to explain in as much detail as possible every single thing we can about the instrument. As an example we took in a pre-owned F Bass this week and it shows a lot of player wear. Some of which looked different from what we might expect. We detailed all of this to a prospective buyer in another country and spoke to F Bass. They remembered the bass and said it had a minor flaw in cosmetic build and this was corrected by adding a, very classy, pinstripe. There was nothing wrong sturcturally with the bass and it sounds great. They'd told the original purchaser, and reduced price accordingly, but it's been through a few hands and this information had slowly been lost from the bass' history. The wear marks we'd identified are simply where the pinstriping has been worn away in places. We explained all this to the customer and there are pictures showing the wear marks. Just to be 100% sure we also paid a local pro luthier to go over it with a fine tooth-comb to check everything as well. We will happily sell this bass which has wear marks on it now but we will also explain exactly what those marks are and how we understand they got there. We've actually sold one of Jimmy's ex-show basses in the past and explained the history behind it. Price was significantly reduced from a new one and the owner was happy about this. N.B. At a later date this bass re-surfaced at another retailer but no mention was made of the cosmetic flaws. If we took a flawed bass in from Jimmy, or anyone else, we'd expect to know about every single flaw in advance and would aim to calculate a price reduction based on this. If the instrument turned up in a much worse state we'd either ask for an additional discount or send it back (or sometime we might try to make good using our local luthier who's an absolute wizard!). We'd then list it for sale and detail every flaw and give an opinion on each of these. Any potential customer would then know in advance the exact state of the instrument. Ideally we'd ask them to come in and physically see it because people's views of 'flaws' differ tremendously. E.G. One person's 'damaged' finish is another's 'mojo' or someone's 'unplayably heavy' is someone else's 'good solid' weight etc. Of course this isn't always possible - hence the detailed description on a show or ex-demo and with backup pictures supplied. I can't genuinely say whether we'd have tried to sell the bass in question or not without knowing all the background. If we'd been told the condition and it arrived exactly like that and was still a solid playable instrument then I think we would have offered it for sale with a clear explanation. If it was unplayable and really nasty then we wouldn't (or we'd have tried to make it better if that was an option). the main thing we wouldn't have done would have been to hide any flaws that we could have found. In all of my direct experience with Jimmy he's been incredibly honest and open about cosmetic flaws and has offered to immediately repair, or take back, anything that may have been faulty. In fact he did take back something with a truss rod issue without a question and offered a brand new instrument in exchange. He also offered to replace some things for free on one bass that had been modified by a second owner and that were not remotely covered by any sort of manufacturer's warranty. I guess it's this usual 'can do' attitude of his that makes me want to 'defend' him a little when people (on TalkBass) call him a cheat and a liar etc. This is simply not the guy I've dealt with on many occasions. Something obviously went badly wrong on all fronts in this particular set of circumstances and it seems to be a real one-off situation. Of course a lot of people find that very hard to accept and I can totally understand where they're coming from. PS - The bass in question has not been offered up for sale to the dealer network as far as I know. It's certainly not been on offer to the few European dealers. Two instruments were recently offered to European dealers and both sold in minutes but they weren't anything like this one.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376641115' post='2177112'] Is that from you personally or through the shop? Maybe they feel safer dealing with someone who isn't Jimmy. [/quote] Both To be honest most people don't really take much interest in the luthier - they're just looking for a good instrument that suits their playing and music. People generally only ask about country of manufacture and rarely care about the builders involved. This doesn't mean they aren't any less discerning, just that they aren't particularly interested in all the background stuff.

[quote name='bumnote' timestamp='1376582914' post='2176477'] You could also look at the lakland jo osbourne, I think its called something else these days its my go bass most days [/quote] I must admit that I'd forgotten the US Laklands - they are uniformly very good indeed. I've owned a couple and played a few others and every one if them has been nice. I much prefer the US ones to the Korean/Indonesian models. These are good solid basses but the US ones are at another level

Woo hoo - and another very firm enquiry in my mail this morning. Someone after a new 5 string because they've heard that no-one makes a 5'er that really sounds like one of Jimmy's basses. It just happens that there's a brand new one ready for shipping too Should be on its way today with any luck.

Loosely - Mk stumbled on stage, fannied around with his amp, pedals etc and came across as very unprofessional. LG eventually cut across him when he finally got his gear working because his playing was messy and pretty much pushed him into the background. This wasn't a sound-check issue either as they'd had plenty of time earlier in the day to sort everything out. I heard this from two different sources so I'm guessing there's an element of truth in here somewhere

Parcelflight are good. I've used them for professional delivery and collection all over the world http://www.parcelflight.co.uk/ Not sure if you need a business account but, if so, buzz me a PM and I'll see if I can help

In terms of demand I've found it interesting that I've had no less than 4 people contact me over the past 24 hours trying to by an Alleva Coppolo - all prompted by the various forum stories both here and in the US. General take-out has been that the bass in question was a one-off but that everything else about them sounds really good. . .

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1376560706' post='2175908'] Ay, tiring thread. Hopefully the OP now had the funds on the way back to him, and he can plan his next purchase! For THAT kind of money, I'd be straight onto Roger Sadowsky for a custom 5 string. Guaranteed it will be perfect. [/quote] Not in my experience - and when I had the temerity to question the quality and explain that there were issues I was told that I was simply 'wrong' and these things did not happen on Sadowsky instruments. I didn't bother to 'forum' this problem (which really was quite bad) and simply paid for a local luthier to fix it. Surprise, surprise a year or so late my non-existent problem was quietly fixed by Sadowsky on all new instruments. . .

Personally I have a real problem with BF cabs (leans back & waits for torrent of flame posts). Aguilar and Bergantino are my two personal favourites in the lightweight cab market. The Berg CN212 is exceptional but I marginally prefer a pair of Aggie SL 112's to the CN112's. In the ceramic market there's a lot more choice. Both the Aggie DB & GS series have strong advocates - although I generally like the DB series there's something about the GS 212 that really works for me. However I prefer the DB112's, either individually or as a pair, to the GS versions. The Berg HD series are really good as well. Again I'd just vote the DB112 ahead on a standalone basis but in a pair of cabs configuration it's a close call. Having tried all of these I definitely wouldn't put any money out without hearing them all first. Some of the differences are subtle, whilst others are quite marked, and all of them will react a little differently depending on which head you're using with them.

Ok - so it's now 'official' BassGear will be stocking Jule Monique pre-amps and the first order is in process The Minnie power amp and module for the De-Monique is wholly manufactured by Demeter and is also being sorted right now. Anyone that wants to pre-order against the first units of either Monique or Demeter pre-amps and Minnie power amps will get some additional discount. This is a BassChat members exclusive deal!

eBay is very good for international reach. People trust it, rightly or wrongly, because of the Paypal 'gurantees'. I've noticed a real surge in demand through eBay recently. Especially on higher end, £2,000+ instruments.

I heard a few horror stories about MK & LG at one of these gigs. Apparently it was really quite embarrassing

Personally I like the higher end Trace gear (although they are not known as 'try-selling it' for nothing!). Way better all round quality than most Ashdown stuff but both brands have had good & bad periods

NYC Sadowskys come up for sale now and then but they do move quickly. In fact I'm negotiating with someone on the value of one right now. Unfortunately it's a very high spec model and almost new so I think it's going to be something like £2,700 Some of the Metro range are really good. There's an odd one that's a little bland tonally but generally they are very good quality

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1376520892' post='2175582'] This thread seems to be going around and around without actually getting anywhere.... AC makes lots of very good basses, everyone likes them - he makes one dog, sells it, turns out customer service isn't a strong point. Every tom dick and harry chimes in with their opinion, some of which are interesting, some of which arn't. Twelve pages later the same things go around and around again. So... we learn every luthier in the world can have a bad day, and one man band luthiers may be crap at customer service. Beyond that... it just all become so negative.... don't be daft. Ask around - now for each maker you'll meet one or two who maybe get something with major or minor issues.... and hundreds of happy customers. I'm pretty sure you could spend £3000 on anything status, overwater, ACG, sei, shuker, or the other british builders and have no problem at all. (Also EU legislation protects you from defects better) [/quote] Totally agree - on both points

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1376519185' post='2175553'] Conversely, it seems everybody who is so keen to defend the guy owns one of his basses. Worried about resale values much? [/quote] Shock horror - people who own basses and have had personal, and very friendly, dealings with the people who made them actually like those people, whatever next? Better alert the media, I'm sure this hasn't happened before. . . There's been so many people saying that, in the main, his basses are fabulous but this one was an aberration that it will have brought the 'brand' in front of lots of new potential customers. those customers may well be looking a lot closer at each individual instrument before but just watch prices start to rise because of all the publicity

[quote name='martin8708' timestamp='1376518866' post='2175543'] With this outcry of disgust and horror , I eagerly await a wave of A-C basses to appear in the for sale section , so I'm off to raid the piggybank and click on wonga to pick up some bargains . But , I somehow doubt that will happen , as those that own one of Jimmy's bass's know just how good they are . [/quote] I'm sorely tempted to put one of mine up for sale to test the theory The last one for sale here sold at about £3K in just a few hours and the most recent one I've seen for sale in a retail outlet sold at full asking price in just a few days. Maybe all the publicity will actually push values up - it wouldn't be the first time I've seen this happen! Edit - Also a pair of brand new ones were offered up to the dealer network in the past week. They sold in minutes at full price - I'm willing to bet a sizeable chunk of money they won't be appearing at discount prices any time soon

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1376510845' post='2175319'] So? [/quote] So there won't be a huge loss in custom - it's pretty basic economics. His instruments are so over-demanded that even a big drop in short term demand will not damage his business. He'd have to make bass after bass after bass that was sub-standard and have each one heavily publicised for him to see any long term effect. In the main his instruments are so highly demanded that they hold value incredibly well on the used market and his new ones will sell just as well, partly because of the cost of the used ones (it's classic restricted-supply, desirable product, scarcity value = high prices and demand type theory).

[quote name='grayn' timestamp='1376500756' post='2175049'] I honestly don't think you'll beat this: [url="http://www.promenademusic.co.uk/overwater-j-series-natural"]http://www.promenademusic.co.uk/overwater-j-series-natural[/url] [/quote] But you could certainly buy one for a lot less if you watch the classifieds and EBay

[quote name='krysh' timestamp='1376517696' post='2175508'] I simply wouldn't pay £2000 for a jb if I could get an equally good used/franken one for under a grand... [/quote] I'm not sure "equally good" really means anything in the context of choosing a bass - it's an age old argument about what 'good' is. One person's stunning frankenbass is another's hideous monstrosity

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1376517331' post='2175500'] Does it have to be a Jazz? Yamaha 2024x's are wonderful instruments and you'll end up with a few hundred in change. Truckstop [/quote] Or even close to £1,000 if you buy used! The potential range of Jazz type basses up to £2,000 is vast. Depends if you want something that cops the vintage vibe (but without Fender idiosyncrasies) vs more modern and active or with a flashy wood top vs simpler colours etc. etc. At this price level you can pick up almost any of the top brands used and some very good ones brand new. As some have said there are custom options available but a lot of the more well known luthiers will push over £2K for a full custom build these days. That's not to say that the less well known ones won't make something very nice. Customs will always lose value faster than 'standard' models though so need to be wary if thinking about re-sale values. Best return on investment at the top of this budget level is an American made Sadowsky. Nothing sells faster than a nice lightweight NYC Sadowsky with high end top wood. Celinders hold value well but the prettier ones have crept over £2K and some are now closer to £3K because there aren't any new ones coming out of Chris' workshop at the moment. Contrary to popular belief, Alleva Coppolos are the easiest of the J type bases to sell and hold value like nothing else. However you won't get close to one at £2K unfortunately. Should be able to get a very good vintage Fender for this money (although 4 bolt necks are right at the top of the budget). Brand new Custom Shop models are kicking around just over £2K (unless they are rare colours or relic'd) and are, in the main, really well made and finished these days. Definitely able to get a used CS for under £2K. Some Sei J's are fabulous value for money. Over £2K new but prices plummet on used ones. Nordy and Lull easily available used in this budget (again they drop value fast from new). I'm sure there's a zillion others too!

I hear a certain bass dealer not a million miles from me has picked up the UK distribution and has a couple on order Didn't specifically ask if a Minnie would work over here but I've been offered a price on them direct from the US and I'm pretty sure they would be happy to sell them if they didn't work here. Pricing will match the cost of a personal import but with local support and backup over and beyond manufacturer warranty - plus, you can get to try them before purchasing