Dingus

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1364315972' post='2024761'] I've often thought there is more appreciation of technical skills than musical beauty from the majority of players on here. I know we are obviously striving to improve our skills so we listen to great players, but are we forgetting what music is all about? It also seems to me a lot of skillful players feel the need to use those skills hence the technical displays of chops and a leaning towards jazz or techie music, or, god forbid, rapid slap. There is a lot of denigration of simpler music too, as if it's naive, commercial pap, or an excuse for poor musicianship, when often the reverse is true. Is the point of music often missed in light of this? If I'm right, that is. [/quote] [quote name='Conan' timestamp='1364316982' post='2024786'] Is it safe to have this discussion? Is Inti/Antelope anywhere withing hearing distance...? Simple is good. But often it seems that we have to go through some kind of "life cycle" as a musician. You start off crap (obviously), but through practise and dedication start to get quite good. Some people stop there and are quite happy. Others aspire to more, so they practise harder and longer. Maybe learn theory. Maybe have lessons. They start to get seriously good, and start to demonstrate their expertise by playing all over the music that they play.... Some people are impressed... Then comes the "economy" stage. You know where the notes are, and how to play them. You may well have a commanding knowledge of technique and are skilled in various styles.... BUT (and that's a big but) you [b][i]choose[/i][/b] not to play them all the time! You are now a tasteful player and are a far more valuable commodity to bands and other musicians. For that reason, never judge a player by what they play. You have no idea what they [i]can[/i] play! [/quote] I can see where you are coming from with this - hell I even agree with you to a large extent - BUT ... there is a tendency in music and musicianship at the moment to equate simple with good and simple with tastefulness and a more mature and deeper understanding of music as a whole . This is quite simply not true , and is an exercise in sophistry and one upmanship . Simplicity is not aesthetic justification in itself : simple music and economic playing by musicians is just as apt to be rubbish as complicated music and highly technical playing . It is far too easy to champion the supposedly more wholesome simple approach , but music is a highly complex art form and a myriad of approaches can yield the most effective results . The best musicians are capable of a varied approach within their own stylistic limitations , and the simple fact is that sometimes in certain situations complicated[i] is [/i]better . Simplicity is not a virtue in itself , rather it is just one approach that can produce a musically satisfying final product , as can many other approaches . That is why music has infinite variety .

[quote name='witterth' timestamp='1364317122' post='2024789'] Is it an Alembic Bass? sounds a bit hi fi for 1983. still no word on who played it though, someone must know!! [/quote] I don't know who played on it , but the track was almost certainly made in Belgium , or possibly Holland , so it was probably nobody famous ( tell me a famous Belgian bass player from the 1980's - .. exactly ! ) .

[quote name='Sid Fang' timestamp='1364318048' post='2024817'] Really? I've never, ever heard of that having happened. It could, of course. There was a lot of the Black Arts in the original Ned Steinberger design - one of the reasons Gibson was never able to cost-reduce and scale-up production - and some graphite/epoxy mixes may have been less rigid than others, but it's not a problem that comes up very frequenty with 'bergers in the forums I frequent. It would be bad if it did happen - unlike Status and most other modern manufacturers of graphite necks and guitars, the XL-2 has no truss adjustment. One would probably have to apply pressure in the opposite direction for 20-odd years... [/quote] I have never encountered it personally so I would reserve judgement , but I have heard stories ( make of them what you will ) about various makes of basses - not just Steinberger - with graphite necks from the 1980s developing discrepancies in the neck due to very slight movement of the graphite . It would seem that carbon graphite is not neccesarilly 100 % stable over the longer term , as had always been assumed at the time . Bear in mind that a bass neck only has to change shape by a fraction of a millimeter in order to start causing problems .

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1364316133' post='2024765'] Thanks all. Yes, I am not expecting absolute mind blowing quality, and as many realise, I am a stickler for quality, but if the USA bolt on models are as good as the Euro 4 LX I tried today, I think I'd be impressed. However, I assume the bolt on NS4 I am looking at is probably higher quality, and has a different pre-amp. Would it be fair to say the bolt on USA versions will be a little less smooth in tone? [/quote] Sound can be a bit difficult to quantify , but I find the neck thru USA Spectors , particulaly the classic NS2 pj configuratuion to be one of the more aggressive sounding high end basses , hence their popularity with rock players . The bolt on versions will probably be slightly more immediate and punchy but a little transparent and sustaining in terms of sound by comparison , if that makes sense . Bear in mind I have never played both side by side , so it's difficult to say with any real confidence . Also , the pickups and electronics package will make a big difference . Humbuckers will be very different to a PJ or JJ setup , and I think the USA models now have an Aguilar preamp , so that should sound pretty good . The old Spector bolt -on bass from the 1980s had JJ pickups and it was a bit of a closet classic , so I would personally go for that option , but they will all sound fine .

According to a dealer in the States I was having a chat with who sees a fair few , on an increasingly large number of them the necks are becoming a bit bent , despite the fact that they are made out of graphite . I suppose that you would just have to look at any particular one you were going to buy and evaluate it . I know spares are still available , including original replacement parts , albit at a higher price , but how long that will continue is anyones guess . Who knows , if I played the right one on the right day I may well buy it despit the fact that I am very well served for basses nowadays , but I still wish they were a currently in production the same as they originally were before Gibson took over .

[quote name='12stringbassist' timestamp='1364257778' post='2024097'] I think he's a truly remarkable player - I just loved his work with Paul Young at the time. I have to say though, that he is not really the man for the job with The Who. I love that band to bits and simply can't bear to watch them with Pino on bass. It's not his fault, but his style is not what The Who requires. As said above, he was drafted in when John passed away and who in their right mind would turn down that gig? John was pretty close to deaf later on in his life, lip reading and watching Pete's hands, to keep up on stage. That explains why he went for that mechanically processed distorted sound, which was a bit grim. To get an overdriven sound, he had to process it, as Daltrey was going ape about stage volumes (as was PT). To his failing ears (and I really don't mean that as an insult) it probably sounded decent, but on it's own, it was a horrible tone. Anyone who doesn't get Entwistle's unique playing style doesn't get what The Who were originally about. That's not meant as an insult to anyone either. Even with Zak doing 100% the business, it's not like The Who without John. They have the perfect right to change the band, but it saddens me. Who should they get in? God knows! [/quote] My sentiments entirely , except for my money the Who should have packed it in a [i]long t[/i]ime ago , regardless of the sad demise of John Entwistle . Pino has never been a good fit for that band , but the band itself isn't a good fit to call itself The Who , so that is hardly surprising . They used to be at the vanguard of social revolution and they have become a cabaret act . That makes me sad . They haven't written a good song since Eminence Front , and we would all have been better off if they really had packed it in for good in 1982 . They only got back together because they neede the money , as they admitted themselves , and it shows .

If you are planning on pushing the boat out , then a USA Spector is a fantastic bass bass , especially if you are prepared to go the whole hog ( two metaphors one sentence - that's what I call value for money ! ) for a neck thru USA model . That is a real Spector , most of the rest are essentially budget attempts to exploit the success of that design . That is not to say some of the lesser models are not great basses , but the neck- thrus set the standard and are one of the best basses that money can buy , in my opinion . Some of the bolt -on USA models are also wonderful instruments in my estimation , and some folks might actually prefer them to the neck thru models , and they also tend to be a bit lighter in weight generally speaking . If you are looking at resale value , in the long term the USA models will ,always fare better than their Euro counterparts . I have always found Spector basses to be very good quality basses , but whether they will meet your requirements regarding quality of finish ect I couldn't really say Gareth . Don't forget , they are essentially hand - made instruments and you are bound to get some idiosyncracies and variation from one example to the next , so bear that in mind if you are particulaly bothered by uniformity and consistency .

[quote name='Stacker' timestamp='1364294260' post='2024347'] There's a fella on here selling an L2 for a very reasonable £1500! Plus, they'll never be made again, not unless someone does some serious 3d priniting: the plugs and molds were lost/destroyed during the Gibson years. [/quote] I've seen the one you are talking about , and it's a very nice example . To be honest with you , I've looked at a couple in the States that were in unplayed brand new condition and been very tempted , but for one reason or another I have held off , mainly because spare parts are getting to be very difficult and expensive to find but also for a couple of other reasons I won't bore you with . I have actually spoken to Ned Steinberger himself a while back about the possibility of him regaining the patent and starting making them again and he said that there is absolutely no chance , regardless of demand . The biggest stubling block is that the basses were always so costly and time consuming to produce to a consistant quality that you couldn't make enough of them or to a reasonable market price to make it worthwhile in the long term . Those problems were a big part of why he sold out to Gibson , and why no one will make this design again . As I mentioned a while ago in another thread , what I suspect [i]really[/i] want is for it to be 1985 all over again ( I begged my dad to buy me one at the time but he refused on the grounds that he couldn't afford it , and they didn't have Childline back in those days to report him to ) and to have a Steinberger as my younger self . I will no doubt , continue to be tormented by these beautiful basses .

A big thing in favour of vintage Stingrays is that , as well as being increasingly rare instruments with a great heritage and history due tio their association with Leo Fender , they are also superb basses and easily competative with the best basses made today . It might be stating the obvious , but the fact that pre - EBMM 'Rays sound fantastic and are usually so much fun to play is what really maintains their desirability and ultimately their market price . It's exactly the same reason vintage Fenders command the prices they do - because they are still good basses that do a job , regardless of any "improvements " that have come along in the meantime .

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1364245116' post='2023840'] Absolutely great basses. Still uber cool in my book.....and a great sounding bottom end to boot! [/quote] This is doing me no good whatsoever . I want a Steinberger ! I know I could pick one up second hand , but really I want a new one , despite the fact that they don't make them any more . I wish Ned Steinberger would buy back the patent and start making them the way they used to before Gibson aquired them .

That 30TH Anniversary 'Ray was a very remarkable sounding ( and good looking ) bass , I must admit . I wanted one at the time , but I was put off by the weight . Mahogany seems to really help give some extra focus to the typical Stingray tone on EBMM basses , and I would include the models with mahogany tone blocks in that as well as the solid mahogany ones .

Thanks for the replies . I am thinking that the excellent balance would make up for the unusual playing position and get to feel natural after a while if you stuck with that bass . The Steinberger is the one bass that still torments me to this day . I wish I had got one at the time , if only to get it out of my system , if you see what I mean . To this day , I'm sure that the reason I gravitate towards black basses is the subliminal draw of the Steinberger .

I have been tormenting myself lookinig at some footage of Steinberger XL2 basses this afternoon - I always wanted one back in the 1980's and never quite got one and now probably never will - and I noticed how the pivot plate flipper thing that the strap attaches to only goes up to about the seventeenth - nineteenth fret region of the 24 fret neck . Could someone who is familiar with playing these basses tell me if that makes the neck feel very long (i.e a long reach down towards the nut ) , as tends to be the case on full - scale basses where the strap button / top horn doesn't reach as far as the twelfth fret region ? I have played one of these basses but it was always sitting down in a shop , and it was a very long time ago now . I would be very interested to hear how these basses feel when played standing up with a strap on .

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1364220140' post='2023323'] Sorry I missed out the BFR Redwood Stingray - no pickguard - flame or quilted top - 100 made (IIRC). I agree with you Dingus, the whole musical instrument market is depressed currently - ask any retailer. But decent used equipment that is sought after, and possibly in very good condition, will fetch good prices - recent sale of a mint late 80s trans red Stingray at £900 (compared with the 'well used' late 80s blueburst at £560 - as reported in another thread). [/quote] I suppose the mint condition combined with the late 80's vintage and attractive trans red combined to give the right criteria ie rare and desirable . All I am trying to say is that for anyone who is disposed towards investing money in new basses ( as I know yourself and Gareth are , generally speaking ) if you want to avoid the kind of knock in price you would get on a recent Stingray or Warwick , try and find something that you want and like that is relatively hard to get hold of in the U.K and , most significantly , is something other bass players would dearly love to get their hands on . The problem is getting gear over from the States at a reasonable price - it is unlikely that the pound will rise significantly against the dollar anywhere in the near future , and it is extremely difficult to see that the powers that be who are able to influence the currency markets will ever allow it to rise above $1.70 again , certainly in the next ten years . Goods are priced to a market anyway , and so even if the pound was stronger against the dollar , all that would mean is bigger profits for the manufacturers and distributors ; only a small benefit in terms of pricing would be passed on to the customer . Considering that , it is difficult to see anything except the current state of affairs where American basses are just priced within people's grasp , but we are all left with the dissatisfaction of thinking that we have payed that bit too much for what we have got . To get back on topic , these BFR basses would only appeal to me at a hefty discount , because they are limited editions but made in relatively large numbers and the models themselves offer little practical advantage over the standard models being their more fancy appearance . I don't think the long term resale value would reflect the much higher price someone had paid for one of these .

One major difference with the guitar market is that it can't benefit from cheap hi - tech manufacturing bases in the Far East in the same way so many consumer goods can nowadays . The price of computers and related equipment and televisions , for example has fallen drastically in the last few years for example , but that same phenomena will never apply to guitars because of the way they are made . Furthermore , the secondhand price of most EBMM basses will continue to be low despite any price increases because of the saturated market , and it would take a decrease in supply and increase in demand to significantly change that . That is never likely to happen . I know we have all had this discussion before , but the whole bass market is depressed at the moment and will continue to be so for the majority of equipment . The only exception is for basses that are relatively rare or exclusive and highly desirable , and I would emphasise that they have to combine both of those qualities . So if you want to invest in new basses my advice would be to bear that i mind . Alternatively , for people with spare cash , the secondhand prices some stuff is selling for on Basschat is a chance to stash away some great gear at very reasonable money .

Despite their lesser reputation , the USA - made Gibson era basses can actually be very good basses . The Killer B model with a bolt on neck is an old favorite of mine , and those Gibson era Tobias's can be had for very reasonable money , so I wouldn't reject them out of hand . But yes , I would also explore the possibility of just buying a bass you like , regardless of the brand name .

This shop is a major EBMM dealer and get quite a few special EBMM basses in stock : http://www.knightonmusiccentre.com/bass-guitars/musicman/cat_13.html

I've seen and played one or two , and they are essentially more fancy versions of standard EBMM basses . I don't think they are higher level of construction quality than ordinary EBMM basses , but that is because ordinary EBMM basses are such good quality to begin with that there is not much that they could do to improve on that standard for the special ones , if you see what I mean . It's not like the difference between a regular Fender and Fender Custom Shop where the latter is usually much better made than the standard model .

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1364140506' post='2022374'] When did sensible ever equal fun though?! [/quote] I like to play my cards close to my chest Pete , but if you could see what I am thinking about doing with the money instead you would approve .

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1364135488' post='2022254'] A hole is a goal and all that! [/quote] I just don't want people to make the same mistake I did and end up having to marry one to avoid jail .

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1364135348' post='2022252'] The one I sold to andytoad that he is selling is a beast and at a bargain price [/quote] I've had a look at that Pete , and it does indeed look stunning . I have also seen some nice Stingrays in the States recently , but the thing that is holding me back is that the rear pickup on my Reflex does the Stingray thing with aplomb , albeit with a slightly more focused sound than a 'Ray . The sensible part of my brain is telling me to spend my money on something more different to what I already have . I still want a Stingray , though .

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1364134162' post='2022230'] Who is this him you are talking about? This thread is about a hot japanese chick isn't it? [/quote] With those kind of gender recognition skills , don't go on holiday to Rio Di Janiero , Pete . You could get yourself into a [i]lot [/i]of trouble .

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1364131893' post='2022185'] My name is Peter I have an addiction to pre eb rays, there I said it [/quote] I am longing for a pre - EB Stingray at the moment , too . Looking at these basses has made me come over all vintage all of a sudden . Maybe I could scuff up my nice shiny new basses and pretend .

I've never played the Tobias Toby basses , but I would suspect they have very little to do with Mike Tobias and more to do with Gibson trying to get something out of the Tobias brand name that they bought . The MTD line on the other hand is very much Mike Tobias' brain child and he was instrumental in the designs and oversees the manufacturing . If your finances can stretch to it , something like and Mtd KZ series bass is meant to be a lot of high quality bass for very reasonable money considering what you get for it . Failing that one of the Saratoga basses is a good bet .

That is a good price for sure . Just had a look at the New Arrivals page on The Bass Gallery website and they have got some pretty stunning stuff in at the moment , including an all original 1964 Jazz Bass , a '61 and a '65 Precision and a 1982 Musicman Stingray identical to my old one . If I was rich I would buy them all .