Dingus

If it's any consolation , I think I have seen Orions secondhand in the Gallery in London for not much over a grand , if I remember correctly . At those prices you could take a risk on one and if you didn't like it you will always get your money back out of it . There are plenty floating around that people brought in from the States before the crash when you could get two dollars to the pound so used Alembics could be brought over from shops or ebay sellers in the States for silly prices . If you want to try an Alembic I wouldn't despair . When it comes to basses , it's ultimately a buyers market by virtue of the sheer quantity of used gear out there .

[quote name='bassman344' timestamp='1356376418' post='1909745'] I bow to a lot of knowledge here and I respect that Alembic did it all and laid the groundwork for more, so hats off to them. No complaints or dispute. But why spend so much hard saved money to have a delicate bass with a likely to be problematic truss rod system and electronics that NASA would be happy to orbit the earth with. I'm not being sarcastic here, it's just that I am a little dismayed that one of my bubbles has been burst a little as I thought that for that amount of money it would be a cast iron workaholic. I considered a secondhand Orion 5 string a while ago and on reading this I'm glad I didn't buy it. My basic bass maintenance and tweaking skills would probably have ruined the thoroughbred before it played half a dozen gigs and I would have been left with a mess. Seems Alembic have it sown up. Charge so much for your product that the only people who can afford to play them are the people who have bank accounts that have at least seven figures before the decimal point. Then when (not if) they go wrong you have a blank cheque to fix them at the price of a new Warwick or USA Jazz bass. - Are they based in the Carribean ? [/quote] Please don't get the impression that I am trying to undermine Alembic in any way with these observations , far from it . You would be hard pressed to find any similar design bass that is a truly robust low -maintainence workhorse . The more straightforward Alembics like the Orion will probably be comparable with other high end basses of similar design in terms of build and reliability . The variable Q filter-based preamp and external power supply are the tricky bits of electrical gubbins and you have to go further up the range to get those . The people who own and run Alembic are the same people that started the company and they are lovely people who take a lot of pride in what they do . It has been their lifetimes work and they have resisted all pressure to compromise or cash in on what they do . The price reflects their costs in producing each instrument and their refusal to do things on the cheap even on the lower cost instruments , and as I previously mentioned , don't confuse the price you would pay here for what you can get an Alembic for in real terms in the USA . They aren't cheap in America , but they are nowhere near as expensive as they are here , all things considered .

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1356376311' post='1909744'] They're not delicate at all. They were designed to be the best engineered instruments it was possible to make in the mid 70's - both structurally and sonically. They haven't changed much in the last 40 years or so because they haven't needed to. Every plaudit that could be extended to Leo Fender could be extended even further to Alembic. I agree that they're idiosyncratic but I really like mine. They're expensive because they've decided to position themselves at the highest end of the market. If you want the brand, you pay the price. Looking at their options list, I doubt very much that some prices could be justified in terms of labour and materials. Late 70's Series 1 instruments can be picked up for very reasonable prices if you keep your eyes peeled. But forget about slapping on one regularly unless you get the pickup selector relocated away from the horn. [/quote] Alembics committment to the ultimate quality is beyond question , but my ( limited ) experience and knowledge of Alembics is that they need taking good care of in so mucjh as they are far more breakable than more robust Fender -style designs . The angled headstock is prone to breaking if they are dropped , the electrics are good quality but will eventually wear and need servicing and /or replacing , and some of the 70s Alembics are now having problems with the neck laminations shifting slightly apart , according to some reports . Most fancy custom basses do need care and consideration in how they are treated and maintained , I'm not just singling out Alembic . My Wal basses , for example , were also quite finnicky and needed periodic servicing by Electric Wood . Used Alembics are indeed well worth considering if they "fit" you as a player , most certainly . Alembic basses have a special allure for me , and they are without question basses with a special sound , and I'm just sorry that I find the classic ones like I always wanted when I was a kid so uncomfortable .

They are delicate in the sense that there is a lot to go wrong on them . The electronics on a full-spec Alembic ( and even some of the lesser models ) are very complex by most standards , and it can be difficult to get them fixed properly by anyone except Alembic . Also , the necks can be prone to needing regular adjustment according to some reports , and the dual truss rods can be a bit of a challenge . Bear in mind that Alembic started out as a kind of instrument technology collective for Bay Area musicians rather than as a strictly commercial undertaking and you get some idea of how their unique approach to just about everything has come about . A lot of the things we take for granted nowadays such as neck-thru body construction , use of exotic woods , brass bridges and active electronics were all [i][b]invented [/b][/i]and / or pioneered by Alembic and considering that , you begin to realise their massive contribution to the industry .

Alembic basses might not be everybodies cup of tea , but the price comes very much from the way that they are built . They use a labour-intensive process that takes a lot of skilled man ( and woman ) hours for each bass they produce , and so to maintain half decent profit margins the price is neccesarilly high . Add to that the top quality timbers and the fact that all the hardware and electronics they use are proprietary rather than bought- in packages from other manufacturers and you begin to see where the price comes from . Alembic are a unique company with a unique and uncompromising approach to instrument making ; they sincerely believe that if they did it any other way then they just wouldn't sound like Alembics anymore , and in my book that kind of integrity is always a good thing . Their basses are certainly an aquired taste , and their older more traditional designs don't suit me personally , but they are great basses nevertheless . I much prefer the more recent designs like the Esscence Bass , and always bear in mind the Alembic are the original custom bass builders and will bend over backwards to help you design your dream Alembic regardless of what model it is based on . Alembic basses are quite delicate and need careful use and maintainance , but so are a lot of other brands of high -end bass in my experience . The Alembic is not for those who want to beat it and forget about it , that's for sure . Also bear in mind that the quoted retail prices are only a guide ; you get a big discount off that when purchasing through an Alembic dealer if you live in the U.S.A . Other bass builders have caught up with Alembic in certain respects when it comes to high quality custom basses , but Alembic are still a preeminent bass builder . One thing is certain - nothing sounds quite like an Alembic .

[quote name='bassman344' timestamp='1356357512' post='1909457'] Pardon my complete ignorance. But. Why are they so ridiculously expensive? [/quote] Because the amount of time and skill involved in making them and the quality of the materials used .

Billy uses a custom Zon Sonus bass with a body made of poplar ( rather than the usual ash used for a Sonus )that has a Precision pickup inside a humbucker casing in the neck position and a humbucking Jazz pickup at the bridge , and he also has a Zon Legacy Elite that he uses very occasionally . He has used Ampeg , but also Peavey and Genz Benz amps and cabs in various mix and match combinations . I've also seen him using Trace Elliot , but that was a very long time ago when everybody used Trace Elliot . He also relies heavily on the Fulltone Bass Drive pedal , which probably gives him a lot of his grit and dirt .

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1356210830' post='1908102'] em, i'm 20 in just over a week (so yeah, 19). as far as i can tell, any set of 10 years that sees Rick Astley as a star is not a good one [/quote] Rick is a true legend ! What's more , his legend has endured despite his vouluntary withdrawl from the limelight . Kids nowadays !

[quote name='Evil Undead' timestamp='1356195895' post='1907862'] I know what items I want. I guess I'm just really nervous about them being discontinued or something in the time it takes me to save the money. Neither item comes up on the used market very often. I don't want to miss out. [/quote] In that case , if you are determined that lay -away is best , you can always approach a shop that has the item in stock and ask them if you can put a deposit on and then pay the balance off before taking the goods away . They can only say no , and will probably say yes because they have nothing to lose as it is no risk to them .

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1356199689' post='1907926'] For their time Wal was just IT. I switched to Wal during the 80's and I was just blown away by the sound quality. Its odd that, for a time (quite recently) nobody wanted Wal basses yet now they are back in vogue. I almost pulled the trigger on a brand new Wal build when Paul Herman started the ball rolling again...but after negotiations with my better half I eventually had to settle for a house renovation instead (new kitchen, bathrooms etc etc). I did consider a divorce and selling my children...but decided it would be better karma if I saved for a few years instead! [/quote] The sad irony is that Paul has had to put his prices up significantly since he started making Wal basses again , and if you had pulled the trigger on one when he resumed production it would already be worth more than you paid for it in all likelihood. I too can remember when nobody was particulaly interested in Wal basses - the were considered an an 80s thing - and you could get MK1 Wal basses secondhand for about £600 . I remember it so well because THATS WHEN I SOLD MY THREE ! I too thought about ordering a Wal again when Paul took over , but my better judgement tells me to leave the past alone and I remind myself that there was a reason why I stopped playing them in the first place . Still great sounding basses , but however well Paul makes them ( and I am absolutely certain that they will be just as good as they ever were ) I don't think buying a Wal will make it 1983 again , and that is probably what I really want .

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1356196637' post='1907887'] Yes indeed, incredible tones. For me the only bass on the market that could compete sound wise was the Alembic Series 1....and the Wal is infinitely easier to use, and much, much cheaper to buy. For me Geddy Lee had his best ever sound with the Wal custom. Listen to "power windows" to hear his optimum recorded bass sound using his Wal - especially the track "Big Money". Just awesome! [media]http://youtu.be/BAvEiLpboqk[/media] [/quote] I had the oppotunity to switch my allegiences to Alembic during my Wal era , but I thought even the Alembic Series 2 didn't better the Wal for quality of sound ( albeit that it is quite a different sound to a Wal ) , although it did sound amazing in its own way , and the weight of the Alembic Series 2 even with a chambered body was more than my Wal basses at the time . The ergonomics regarding balance and reach to the lower frets and the neck profile of the Alembic were not to my taste either . I love Geddys tone on Power Windows too . I love Geddy , full stop . I don't even care if that sounds a bit dodgy . Not that there would be anything wrong with it even if I did mean it in that way . Anyway , you know what I mean .

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1356194142' post='1907824'] it has a DI out, so you can record directly from the bass without any external DI or amp! cool! so i guess that's to preserve the tone? [/quote] That , and the fact that it means that you don't have to use a direct box , but some folks like to go via a direct box anyway because of the character certain d.i. boxes add to the sound . One of the reasons for the popularity of Wal basses amongst pro players in the 1980s was that they were famously easy to get a good recorded sound with without any messing about . The sound of a Wal sits very well in the mix , and the electronics enable quick fine-tuning of the tone for the perfect result . Pete and Wal designed their basses in conjunction with a number of working pro players of the era and were very attentive to the practical needs of working musicians and so eneded up with a bass that players could use as a tool that would get the job done with a minimum of fuss .

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1356193795' post='1907820'] That's great. So Ian Waller just had a feel for electronics? sounds pretty sweet. I know flea used a wal mach 2 on BSSM for everything except funky monks i believe, and possibly one other song? I've listened to that album alot, and i really like the bass tone, and as far as the tones in their studio albums go, i would say it definitely goes right to the top. Wish i could afford to get one built, but i saw on the website just now that they START at £3650! i could sell my macbook pro, car and possibly a kidney and all other instruments and worldly possessions, and then i might be able to get them to build one tailored to me [/quote] You are still a young man ; you've got the rest of your life ahead of you to get a Wal , or whatever else you want . I wouldn't sell anything quite yet - one of the best pieces of advice I ever recieved about accumulating wealth was from a rich businessman who told me that you don't get rich by saving money , you get rich by [i]making [/i]money . How right he was . Do the right things , make the right plans and you will be buying your Wal without even flinching .

[i]I'm the sort of person who likes to have a firm goal to work towards. Setting things aside gives me a clear goal. [/i] That's fair enough , [b]BUT[/b] , have you considered that if you save the money without committing yourself to a particular peice of gear at a set price then in the interim period you could change your mind about what you want , or you could see the same item at a better price ? Admittedly , the item could also go up in price , but to me the benefits of not committing yourself far outweigh that risk . The reason so few stores do lay-away nowadays is that most people don't wan't it because it makes no real sense , not just because of the free availability of credit .

Why not just save up the money and then spend it ? Why does the gear have to be laid away ? Why not just save up and buy it new when you have the money ?

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1356185525' post='1907740'] Sounds great! I need to try one of these. Anybody got any comment on the pickups? how/why do they make them? [/quote] They are indeed staggeringly great sounding basses . I used Wal basses as my main bass for ten years and none of the basses I tried during that time usurped the Wal for sheer quality of sound . They are basses with a unique character and distinct personality , but they also have certain idiosyncracies that make them not for everybody . They are indeed , on the whole heavy basses , , but back in the day people were less concerned by the weight of basses , certainly according to my recollection anyway . Wal can make you a slightly lighter one if you specially request it . The neck profile is also slightly on the chunky side , but again , Wal could easily make you a custom neck profile if you want it slightly slimmer . Regarding the pickup design , the individual coil thing was supposed to eliminate crosstalk and intermodulation between the pole pieces , but I wouldn't focus too much on that detail ; Wal pickups are such an individual design that there are various design characteristics that make them sound so great . Ian Waller was an electronics wizz with a unique approach and the Wal pickups and preamp just sound right , simple as that . There is some kind of perfect synergy between all the electronics on a Wal that make them sound rich , deep , round and effortlessly powerful . No one really understands why , but it all fits perfectly . The electronics sound a lot more complicated when you read about them than they are to use in reality . In practise it's all very intuitive and you would get the hang of it all in no time .

I am constantly surprised by how much a lot of folks boost the eq on Music Man basses . I think the best approach is to set them flat , or halfway on pre EBMM / 2 band eqs , and then cut or boost sparingly from there to make moderate adjustments to fine -tune the tone . But that's just me , conservative by nature .

[quote name='rushbo' timestamp='1356107763' post='1907002'] ...it sounds like those dodgy Portuguese pressings of Thin Lizzy albums i used to buy in the 70's.... [/quote] I had a few dodgy Greek pressings of Deep Purple albums from the same era . Ah , the joys of discount record shops...

Regardless of the technical merits of either format , I think it fair to conclude that either vinyl or CD can sound pretty damn good with the right equipment in the right environment . Does that sound like a reasonable compromise ?

[quote name='BassYerbouti' timestamp='1355933758' post='1904700'] Oh bugger, I'm all over the place now [/quote] Any Stingray will sound good -2eq , 3eq , new , old - it doesn't matter that much in the end . They will all end up sounding like a Stingray , which is no bad thing ! We are talking about the finer points more than anything else . If you can get a chance to try one or two Stingrays then that will be invaluable and 5 minutes with a bass in you hand can be worth a hundred hours reading about it . But overall , if you are looking for a bass with a great slap sound and punchy fingerstyle tone then a Stingray is up there with the very best .

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1355930330' post='1904623'] I dont think that much TBH really do you? super strong magnets and all that I think is probably a load of shiz I think there would be loads more reason why people dont sound like Louis Johson before that will concern anyone Also they were pre EB Rays so all the pre EB factors would get you closer than an EBMM 2 band. [/quote] You are quite right Pete , but I personally find the EBMM Stingrays to be quite a bit more zingy -sounding than an old pre- EBMM Ray .

Its worth pointing out , a new EBMM Stingray isn't goint to sound exactly like Louis Johnson's bass in that clip . His basses were specially tweaked by Leo Fender to have a super-powerful slap sound , and even Louis doesn't know what Leo did to them . This fellow is arguably king of the slap tone on a Precision Bass : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5QYSu9xaTE

Some folks think that , because of the interactive nature of the frequency controls on the active eq that the basic sound of the two band Stingray is slightly different , but it's a subtle difference at best . Obviously , the three band lets you have more control over tyhe mids which can come in handy , but the pre-EBMM Stingrays were all two band eq and people managed fine with them , so either will be o.k . Just a quick point about playing slap on a Precision ; a P bass can sound great for slap , but the low-mid emphasis chunky 1970s style tone tone is not to everybodies taste maybe . I have grown to love it and slap on my own Precision , but have found that the right strings and setup really important in getting the best sound and feel for slapping on this type of bass .