Dingus

This problen of wear from roundwound strings takes me right back to the 1980's when fretless basses with roundwound strings were all the rage . You used to get notes on the fingerboard ( usually the most commonly played ones like E at the seventh fret on the A string ) where the strings had cut a groove into the fingerboard and the note would buzz . When it gets too annoying , you can get a luthier who knows what he is doing ( Chris May at Overwater certainly does know what he is doing ) to re - true the fingerboard and you can get back to wearing it down again . Eventually you will need to get the fingerboard replaced but it is usually not a big deal , providing you use someone good ( like Chris May ) . I know that Pino Palladino is on the fourth or fifth board at least on his famous fretless Stingray . Some companies use an epoxy coating on the board to retard the wear from roundwounds , but even that will wear through eventually and need replacing . Epoxy also changes the sound of the bass , which you may or may not like . Just like Ed , I personally don't care for the sound of flats on a fretless - the abscence of frets makes the sound muted enough to begin with without adding to that by using flats - and always use rounds , regardless of wear on the board . Nickel roundwounds are thought to wear the board a little less quickly than stainless steel , and probably have a better tone for fretless playing too , on the whole .

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1376423879' post='2173869'] You would [i]really[/i] have to be enamoured with your own work to think that a body that looks like it was contoured by a drunk with a Dremel is of craftsman quality. And your ego would have to be of cosmic proportions to believe that your work couldn't possibly be that bad and that somehow a camera flash must have made the bass look like ****, or to suggest that the buyer had doctored the photos rather than admit you've produced a really poor quality instrument. If he'd come back and said "OK I've seen the photos and I agree that bass isn't up to my quality standards and I'm going to put it all right.", then his reputation would have been saved. Unfortunately he said "Give me the bass back and I'll give you your money back because you're clearly not the right type of person to own a bass as amazing as this.". I think he's crazy. Neither the buyer nor the forum are not to blame for his current predicament. It's entirely his fault. [/quote] With the benefit of hindsight , he should have managed the situation in exactly the manner you suggest . But that doesn't make him dishonest in his earlier representations to the customer . He may or not be crazy , but whether he is or not , it doesn't mean he cheated the customer out of his money .

[quote name='steve-soar' timestamp='1376425928' post='2173914'] Spot on. He portrayed himself as a very strange kind of business man. The very fact he called the bass's owners honesty into question, speaks volumes about his persona. And saying that Doug P, played the bass "like a man", well. All in all, a very sorry tale. [/quote] I think he is referring to the fact that Doug Pinnick played the bass quite hard with a pick , which would have been likely to have accentuated any fret buzz problem . And Jimmy Coppollo is probably quite a poor business man . Like I said earlier , it's a business full of rank amateurs . We are ,after all , talking about people who want to build electric guitars for a living . It's hardly a profession which attracts hard-headed business men with slick P.R skills . Jimmy is only human and is responding in a defensive way to the deluge of criticism and abuse he has had over this bass and the nature of the agreement he had with the buyer . As I also alluded to earlier , I have no interest in defending Jimmy Coppollo, but at the same time I can see why he has reacted in the way he has . He has been tried and found guilty by a jury of idiots on Talkbass and now it has passed into legend that he is a conman who produces shoddy work and then abuses his disgruntled customers . I expect that is actually some way from the truth of what actually happened here . .

Overall , I get the impression that JC was so enamoured of his own work and reputation that he thought that the buyer would be content to own the bass in its' current state . With hindsight , that was an error of judgement and he has offered a refund , so all has ended well , thankfully . Jimmy's faith in his own work and belief in his product is admirable in many ways , but maybe this time he slightly overestimated the kudos of the AC brand and this is the resultant fallout from that . In situations like this I always reflect on the fact that anyone can make an honest mistake or an error of judgement - I know I have done myself , more than once - and I wouldn't be so quick to condemn someone or besmirch their character because of that because of that .

The big lesson for all of us in this tale of woe is , if you are buying a bass that actually exists already ( rather than ordering a custom build ) then don't let your excitement and enthusiasm get in the way of you going to whatever lengths you can to check the bass out properly before you hand over your cash . One man's "mint condition " is another man's "are you f***in' serious ? "

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376413151' post='2173632'] Litigation works both way. I would want to be very sure that all the evidence back me up before doing what the OP on TalkBass did. [/quote] You are very astute , in that case . I would do the same .

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376411106' post='2173585'] Eh? Have you never heard of TripAdvisor? Read a review on Amazon? Taken note of feedback on eBay? Or would you rather all this went on behind closed doors? [/quote] I've heard of all of them , but I've never read any of them . What you are describing is exactly the phenomena I am talking about - trial by internet . Trip Advisor , for example , is often highlighted as a culprit for the kind of one-sided and unqualified criticism that Jimmy Coppollo has been subjected to over this debacle . When you start making the assumption that because people say something enough that it must be true , you are heading down a slippery slope .

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376410314' post='2173563'] Alternatively, you can post your experience on Talkbass and have it resolved in about 24 hours for free. [/quote] That doesn't make it right , though . It just means it's an effective way of bullying . How long until someone without a legitimate grievance does the same thing out of spite or greed and gets a result again st some poor sod slaving away in a workshop hour after hour for less than minimum wage ? Would that be a victory for consumer rights ? It's the bass guitar equivalent of "vigilantes "lynching people who are accused of being sex offenders . Sooner rather than later, innocent people become the victims .

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376409624' post='2173552'] And judging from the overall tone of Jimmy Coppolo's reply I'd be more inclined to believe the buyer. [/quote] I can genuinely see how you come to that conclusion - it might be my gut instinct too - but that is not justice . Jimmy Coppollo is supposed to be good at building basses , not neccesarilly at representing himself against slander on the internet . He is possibly not the most articulate of men , or the most adept at public relations , but neither of those things would neccesarilly mean that he was guilty of these accusations or that he is fundamentally deceitful or dishonest . That is for a disinterested third party to decide .

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376409517' post='2173547'] Backed up by photos and a timescale that suggests he'd hit a brick wall. When you get to that point, what else can you do? [/quote] Trust me , in America there is plenty you can do in that situation . It's the most consumer -orientated and litigious society in the World .

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376409274' post='2173537'] I think if you read the OP on TalkBass you'll find that buyer very much felt that he had exhausted all the non-public means of getting a resolution to the issues with the bass. [/quote] Yes , but as I keep saying , that is only the buyers version of events . He would say that , wouldn't he ? That is not proper redress that is objectively fair to both parties .

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1376407630' post='2173516'] To be honest, me neither, I'd just be VERY specific, which you would for $5,000. I'd be very careful, which you would for $5,000. I've seen some awful examples of high end basses (all different manufacturers), but I've seen some very good examples as well. [/quote] The thing is , a lot of these guys have the best of intentions , but in reality you are dealing with a middle -aged bloke with antiquated machinery , long hair and rent to pay . It's not Audi or Mercedes , and clinical manufacturing tolerances are extremely unlikely in most such circumstances .

[quote name='thodrik' timestamp='1376408635' post='2173528'] It would deter me. There are plenty of other boutique Fender bass makers. None of them are particularly unique in terms of design, so if I am going to spend loads of money on an instrument that I haven't seen or played, then brilliant customer service and the option of returning the bass if it was a dud would be pretty significant factors in determining my choice. Having to resort to an ugly public forum mudslinging match in order to reach a resolution to any problem hardly inspires much confidence, no matter how brilliant the majority of the basses are. [/quote] Well , as the saying goes , you pay your money and you takes your choice . If it had been me who had bought the bass , I wouldn't have taken to a public forum to air my grievances , so I'm not so sure the buyer "had " to do any such thing . He did , he got what he wanted , and JC got a good kicking in the process that may damage his livelihood in the long -term , but I'm not sure that justice has really been served , and that is what I find distasteful .

If I fancied an AC bass , this saga wouldn't deter me from ordering one in the slightest .

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376404390' post='2173442'] There is one factor here that should remove any element of doubt about the quality of the finished goods: $5000. [/quote] Is $5000 really [i]that[/i] much money nowadays ? I don't think so . The commercial value of the goods is , as in all such transactions , governed by the law of Supply and Demand . The goods are in limited supply (i.e a one off ,) and the customer has let known his demand for the product , placing the seller in a powerful and advatageous position . [i]That[/i] is why he feels justified in asking a high price for the bass , rather than because of an unerring belief in the quality of his product . I see vintage guitars and basses that are in far worse states than this bass selling for way in excess of $5000 , but they are "worth it " because they are in short supply and there is a persistant demand for them . Do you see what I mean ? Things are worth what you can get for them .

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1376404570' post='2173445'] Again, pure conjecture but had JC disclosed the condition (and I refer back to my earlier point of who the hell considers that a suitable level of fit and finish to sell off 'as new') to the buyer when he was buying it, then I would have assumed that JC's response on TB would have reflected that; something along the lines of 'I told you what the condition of the bass was!'. However, he hasn't defended himself in that manner, rather he has attacked the buyer and insinuated that he (the buyer) has either tampered with the bass or deliberately photoshopped the images to make it appear worse than it is. Aside from the motivations and truths (hidden or otherwise) in this situation, I personally think that JC should seriously up his QC at the various points of build. [/quote] Well , if he wanted me to buy a bass from him , I would expect a cetain level of fit and finish , so I am right there with you on that . However , what underlies this whole debate and the indignation of the people who comment on JC's level of workmanship is that buying high end basses is a lottery . It ought not to be , but it is . I have bought more expensive high - end basses than I care to mention , including man/ most of the big names that most players aspire to own as " ultimate " fantasy instruments . Nearly all of them were a dissappointment in one way or another . Nowadays, I don't expect that much in return when I part with my money . I am half expecting problems with the bass before I even pay for it , to be honest . The naked fact is that building boutique basses is not an occupation that attracts the most dilligent of individuals , regardless of the hype they try and create around themselves and their " fanatical committment to quality " .In reality , most of them are enthusiastic amateurs learning on the job as they go . In most cases , it's a cottage industry , and the final products are often on the cusp between handmade and homemade . There are a few notable exceptions where you are much more likely to get a decent quality final product , but for the most part I would warn any discerning customer not to be surprised if their custom order bass turns up with at least one or two rudimentary flaws in the construction . A big part of the problem is that building high -end basses is such a low-paid job that they are inevitably overworked , under-resourced and hopelessly behind schedule , more often than not .

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1376403252' post='2173409'] 'If' that is the case then in my book that makes him despicable as opposed to someone making a single poor judgement call. I realise that it is your take on the situation and may well not be JC's reasoning for what happened but taking advantage of someone or a situation (i.e. someone desperate to get a particular instrument; lefties being particularly difficult to come by) as you describe, is beyond the pale. [/quote] Why so ? One interpretation of events could be that all Jimmy was doing was fascilitating someone getting their dream bass . [u]If [/u]the buyer had had his eyes open about the real state of the bass and still proceeded , that is . Jimmy says the buyer did know what condition the bass was in , the buyer says he didn't . The truth probably lies somewhere between those two points of view .

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376402736' post='2173392'] As far as I'm aware, the 'couple of gigs' worth of wear' comment was a direct quote from JC. You couldn't do that amount of wear in a few gigs unless - as one wag commented on TB - you are a gorilla wearing a suit made of sandpaper. [/quote] As I said , the comments and descriptions are open to interpretation . Let me be clear , I have no vested interest in defending Jimmy Coppollo , or much interest in his basses , but there seems to be an evangelical zeal to rubbish the guy because he has tried to sell a bass to an apparently willing customer . To me , the buyer seems just at much at fault . All this stuff about " how can you sell a bass like that for so much money ? " is bullshit . What gives any goods their value is arbitrary . The question is whether JC deliberately misrepresented the goods to the customer , and as I have already pointed out , [u]we only have the buyers side of the story[/u] . That is not likely to be the most objective version of events . In any such circumstances . there is such a thing as lying by omission .

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1376402580' post='2173384'] Those poorly executed routs aren't 'wear'! Regardless of how the bass was described, why the hell did a respected luthier even sell a bass that would appear to be, at best, a 'B' grade instrument? I have no axe to grind with any one and I am pleased that all seems to be resolved but if your job/vocation is producing boutique instruments at premium prices then you should (IMHO) not be letting anything like that out of your workshop. What would it have taken for JC to have looked the bass over and thought, 'Ooof there are a few rough edges here, I'd better get it back on the sander and sort that out'? Just asking! [/quote] The answer to your question is " because someone was desperate to buy it " . Presumably , Jimmy was making the assumption that those things are not that important to some people .

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376397037' post='2173276'] Does this look like it could be a $5000 bass with "[i]scratches or dings that more than likely will happen on the first few gigs[/i]"..? [/quote] Well , that description is open to interpretation , that is my point . The maxim of "let the buyer beware " comes to mind . I am not saying that this is a bass in good repair , but a lot depends on how Jimmy represented the bass to the customer and what was understood by his description . If someone contacts you and says " I want that spalted alder bass really badly , can you help me with that ? ", as apparently happened in this case , then you are entitled as a vendor to try and extract a premium price for your goods . All these comments about "how can you charge $5000 for that piece of junk "are wide of the mark . The same folks should be asking " how can you [u][i]pay[/i] [/u]$5000 for that piece of junk ? " . No one put a gun to the fellas head and forced him to contact Jimmy Coppollo about buying that bass . Jimmy had an enthusuiastic buyer for a one-off bass and had a right to try and get a good price considering those circumstances . The discrepancy comes in what is meant by play wear and dings . With hindsight , the buyer should have asked for detailed photos , but hindsight is always 20/20 , as we all know . Maybe Jimmy understated the wear to the bass , and , again , with the balance of hindsight would descibe it differently . The fact that he has offered a full refund probably reflects that .

I think it's important to point out that Jimmy Coppollo is a native New Yorker , and people from that city have a tendency to speak plainly and stick up for themselves in situations like this one , so that accounts for why some people would perceive his response as being slightly agressive , shall we say . As I pointed out yesterday , there are two sides to this story , and everybody on Talkbass has immidiately accepted the plaintiffs version of events almost without question . Jimmy has been subject to the modern phenomena of "trial by internet " and been found guilty in his abscence , without even having a chance to state his case . I can understand why he would feel a bit defensive . I have never met Jimmy but I know a couple of folks who have and they like him a lot and would vouch for his honesty and integrity , I am sure . From the outset , I have been a little bit sceptical about some of the buyers version of events for a few reasons , but primarily because this isn't a business that attracts fly-by-night rip off merchants . Building quality basses is a labour of love that has scant rewards except the satisfaction that comes from doing a good job . If Jimmy Coppollo was a dishonest man he would have found a much more lucrative way to inflict that on people a long time ago . Instead , what we have here is a difference in the interpretation of events and what the agreed contract was between the two parties . It is quite conceivable ( indeed , it looks most likely ) that , whatever the apparent condition of the bass , that Jimmy Coppollo was genuinely and sincerely under the impression that the customer was happy and indeed even eager , to pay $5000 for this rare and special bass even in its' current state . That difference in estimation between the buyer and seller of the value of the builder's work is not in itself a crime or act of dishonesty .

It's worth mentioning that the Bongo has a significantly more defined tone that the Stingray for a number of reasons , so dont expect even an HH Stingray to sound quite as articulate as your Bongo . The Stingray is significantly more "scooped" and hollow sounding . That's not neccesarilly a bad thing by any means , but it is something to be aware of . Maybe you could try a second Bongo with a different pickup configuration ?

I don't think the Bongo looks ugly at all . I never have done . It looks unapologetically modern , and sounds that way too , but I think its' stylised lines and 3-D chamfering look beautiful . I like the sound of all the basses , although I like the sound of the fretless and the Stingray 5 the least , and the Bongo would be my favourite . .

Thanks for the input , guys . Looks like UPS , then .

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1376312234' post='2171942'] I think it is because he is from Cardiff and we all played like that in Cardiff at the time. [/quote] There do seem to be a lot of bass players from Cardiff . It's a bass playing "hot spot ". Pino still lives there , apparently .