thisnameistaken

[quote name='crez5150' post='215813' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:52 PM']You think he's a bad example because he toured with Take That?[/quote] [b][size=4]YES![/size][/b] [quote name='poptart' post='215815' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:58 PM']Ermm - Paul was MD (Musis Director) with Take that and also Boyzone - I know not exactly super cool, but as a pro musician that is not bad![/quote] Exactly. As a professional, he's doing very well. As an artist, he's played with Take That and Boyzone. I feel a bit like I'm banging my head against a wall here. Bands like Take That and Boyzone - bands specifically and cynically assembled for the purpose of exploiting the music industry - do not belong in a discussion of integrity, except to serve as the worst possible example of a lack of it.

[quote name='poptart' post='215802' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:44 PM']Hey I am not disagreeing with you, but I bet Paul can pay his mortgage and then some from these 'Super Function band gigs" eg Eurythmics (sp) etc.[/quote] Yeah I bet he can. Is it in any way related to a discussion of artistic integrity though? Regardless of how creative he gets to be with Jamiroquai (if at all), he apparently toured with Take That. He's a pretty bad example.

Are we talking about the Hysteria intro or the rest of it? The intro you can cop with any half-decent fuzz (the MXR Blowtorch nails it), the rest of it is doubled with a synth so you'd need either some insane string of pedals that degrades your signal (octave downs into octave ups, etc.) and eventually approximates a synth sound, or a square wave generator like the Robot Factory Pulse Synth, and then blend that with your fuzzed bass signal with a Boss LS-2 or similar. It's a lot of money to spend covering one tune, though. I would just buy a Blowtorch.

[quote name='poptart' post='215785' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:15 PM']During a chat with Paul Turner (yes The Paul Turner) it turns out that he got his first big break playing with Take That in the 90's because the management saw him playing with a function band at an event and offered him the gig. Not a bad move, after all where us Paul now - well I guess you know the answer to that........[/quote] I suppose playing with Jamiroquai these days isn't too much different to playing with Take That. Banging out the old Zender tunes is probably fun for a while, but I bet that's more than off-set by having to put up with a tosser like Jay Kay on a daily basis.

No you don't.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='215685' date='Jun 9 2008, 08:31 PM']I think definition should come into the fray here as the tone suggests that the artist with integrity somehow has more dignity and worth than all the others. It's difficult to see that you mean anything other than to gently condescend to the people with whom you are holding this discussion and that is where it arrives at a problem for me.[/quote] It's difficult to discuss things like this - especially arguing for the side I chose - without coming off a little high-brow or aloof or condescending. I agree though my tone was a bit off in that post and it was unintentional. I don't want to patronise anybody here, intentionally or otherwise. [quote name='jakesbass' post='215685' date='Jun 9 2008, 08:31 PM']I find it hard to accept you as the sole arbiter of human integrity which sucks a little of the value out of your assertions. I agree with many of the principals that you raise for discussion but I find it hard to get beyond your slightly high minded tone. If you are talking straight principals with no value judgement then my error, if not I think you should possibly widen the possibilities of your defined terms.[/quote] I think I am satisfied with my earlier assertion that we are indeed discussing two different characteristics: Professional integrity and artistic integrity. Both are admirable qualities, but they are quite distinct. Perhaps the dividing line is blurry when discussing professional musicians. For example: Are concert musicians who are not soloists performing as artists, given that they are not required to be creative? Is a symphony orchestra reciting Mussorgsky any different to a function band playing Mustang Sally? Is there any distinction between a band that writes a setlist of covers that they think will please the audience and a band that does requests? Professional integrity is synonymous with honesty in commercial endeavours, and has its own merits. For me, the term "artistic integrity" is again a type of honesty but more of a self-honesty - it describes a quality which explains why an artist would not compromise their own beliefs in return for money, fame or any other benefit. True artists use their considerable skills to outline their own beliefs, to persuade, to further their own cause or those of others that they believe in. I consider people like George Orwell or Stanislavski or Arthur Miller to be the embodiment of artistic integrity. I don't expect anyone else to live up to those standards, but those are the standards to strive for. Given the nature of the original post in this thread I think my assumption that we are discussing artistic integrity was pretty much on the money. We've got a bassist who's hitting forty, he wants to be out there and performing, he sees an opportunity to do a cover band but there's that pang of guilt about it. This is someone struggling with his integrity as an artist. And whichever way he goes I think it's good that he's concerned about it. We can't all change the world, but anyone who ever recognised an artistic talent and the persuasive power of it no doubt hoped to be able to do exactly that in some way. In summary: I think anyone who can play Lady In Red without retching shouldn't be allowed to own musical instruments but maybe that's just me. Imagine a world in which Chris de Burgh isn't allowed to own musical instruments. That would be a better world.

Once when I had a precision I moved the thumb rest to where a jazz pickup would normally be, and used that, but that's the only time I've ever used one. I don't pick that far back any more anyway because I'm old. Actually I tend to rest more on the strings now than I used to, and retire to the front pup when playing the E.

[quote name='BassBod' post='215623' date='Jun 9 2008, 06:54 PM']I've had this a lot - he was just trying to get a clean sound, and take an unknown variable out of the equation. It may seem unreasonable from a players' perspective, but does also make sense. Some players use extreme amounts of eq that can be hard to control front of house or for recording.[/quote] More often than not - in my experience - it's down to ego and nothing else. The guy who gets to stand behind the desk assumes he knows what's best for anybody who sets foot inside his venue, and will try to lay down the law from the moment you arrive. Those sorts of people are never going to give you what you want, even if you win the battle over the mix. Some of the more established venues have more amenable staff, but some (especially those sorts of money-pit venues where the management changes twice a year) will invariably hire the type described above. They are either lazy or they don't like you/your band or they just plain don't know what they're doing. Usually a mix of all three.

I bought a Yamaha RBX model when I was first learning to play. I remember it being a nice bass, I had no problems with it, and it was easy to sell on when I was done with it. That was 15+ years ago though, and I haven't played one recently. I think Yamaha are generally a safe bet to be honest. I haven't played a doggy Yamaha.

[quote name='Rich' post='215366' date='Jun 9 2008, 12:40 PM']I've just looked up 'integrity' in my thesaurus... one of the synonyms given is 'righteousness'. Judging by some of the posts here, it looks like it might be missing a 'self-'... [/quote] I was just thinking this discussion could use a few insults to stop it getting too intellectual. This is the internet after all. Thanks.

Thing is... If Joan Miro had turned to his Parisien buddies one evening and said "Y'know I'm still going to do the Dada-esque thing in my spare time, but I think I'm going to do some flattering portraits of wealthy industrialists too - the pay is great", I doubt his contemporaries would've had much respect for his new direction. And they almost certainly wouldn't have come to the conclusion that his integrity as an artist was not compromised by it.

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='215296' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:14 AM']You could but i get the feeling a lot of people dont. you can play covers and not loose integrity. I guess its how you see integrity.[/quote] It seems we're discussing two different aspects of personal integrity here. I think that's the root of the argument. You're talking about professional integrity: Playing your bass properly even when asked to play something bloody awful - because you see it as your job and you take pride in doing your job well. I'm talking about artistic integrity: Refusing to play something bloody awful because it's bloody awful and you would be ashamed to take part in it. They are two very different characteristics.

[quote name='endorka' post='215280' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:51 AM']Integrity aside, one must eat.[/quote] Fine. But if you put your artistic integrity aside in order to eat, you concede any claim to it. So I find it odd that a cover band musician would maintain any illusion of artistic integrity.

It's the best bass synth you can get? Certainly sound like it to me, but I've never had a chance to try one myself.

[quote name='bassicinstinct' post='215228' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:11 AM']Seems to me that there are many actors who seem to adopt this stance and do "bread and butter" work so that they can display their artistic inegrity in other productions (e.g. doing dross TV sitcoms to finance theatre productions - a la Robert Lindsay for example).[/quote] I think you're confusing the meaning of the word "integrity" there. By definition it's not something you can shelve when it suits you. [quote name='bassicinstinct' post='215228' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:11 AM']If your chosen craft is playing bass, I don't see a problem in marketing that craft for the best financial return.[/quote] Then you have missed the point entirely. When you decide that you're going to pick one gig over another for financial reasons, despite the other being more artistically satisfying, then you cannot claim to have artistic integrity. We may eventually reach the conclusion here that there are very few professional musicians who haven't sold their souls to be professional musicians. Certainly I think anyone who's ever appeared in a magazine holding a commercial product needs to start out on the "dubious musical character" list and earn their place on the other side.

[quote name='steve-norris' post='214052' date='Jun 6 2008, 07:22 PM']Oh and Flea has been playing a Jazz recently, Timorous? [/quote] Flea plays straight-ahead rock music now. I still remember when RHCP records were exciting, but it was a long time ago. They need to start taking the drugs again.

Eww. I only ever got a blood blister the first time I realised I could play my E string with my pinky. Of course I over-did it. This was the period where I played everything over the bridge pickup, so my pinky - being the bridge-most finger - was having to work pretty hard. Straight back to three-finger picking for me and never used my pinky again.

[quote name='The Funk' post='213609' date='Jun 6 2008, 01:14 AM']The first 10 years of my bass-playing life![/quote] Mine too, brother! My worst ever was a gig where I broke my A string in the middle of a tune from picking too hard at the bridge. Naturally only the core broke so it stuck to my pickups and in doing so muted the D too. First chance I got I grabbed it in my right hand and pulled it off the bass. Switched to another bass for the next tune and noticed half-way through that it had blood all over it. When I got home at the end of the gig I pulled 13 tiny pieces of steel winding out of my pinky with a pair of tweezers. Moral: Bass strings and fingers were never intended to meet.

Try playing with your thumb over the bridge pickup with your bass too quiet to really hear properly - you'll have blisters in half an hour.

[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='213505' date='Jun 5 2008, 09:59 PM']ive never used an effects loop :wacko: is this a bad thing? I've always gone - Bass > many effects > amp > bleeding eardrums of unsuspecting band mates/crowd[/quote] Pedals don't belong in an effects loop, so that's the right thing to do. In smaller venues the only practical thing to do is use your on-stage rig to cover the whole room, but in bigger places you've got the additional headache of dealing with (often incompetent) resident sound guys to do the front-of-house mix. When you get a good one you remember and circle the venue's name in your organiser 100 times in red.

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='213556' date='Jun 5 2008, 11:07 PM']As far as I'm concerned, if you're paying me I'll play precisely whatever you want me to, with a smile on my face and all the passion I can muster. If you're not paying, I'll play precisely what I want.[/quote] I think I grew up listening to too much punk to be able to do that. Ian Dury was apparently Andrew Lloyd Webber's first choice to write the libretto for "Cats". It would've made Ian a veritable fortune, but he turned it down, because, in his own words: "He's a w***er, isn't he?". Professionally, I've done jobs I'd rather not have done. Not many of them, but I have done them. But they didn't involve music or anything else persuasive or creative - just normal functional jobs. I can't lend my soul to something soulless. I just can't.

I suppose it depends what you're happy playing. I've never done a function band and I would never do it, just because I don't like the majority of chart music / generic rock music and I would rather disfigure my own testicles than be a part of performing it. Yeah the audience might enjoy it but is that enough? I think if you can take pride in what you're doing then you're doing it right. Whether that involves cooking up your own tunes or bashing out AC/DC covers. But if you're doing the AC/DC covers and you [i]don't[/i] like doing it, that's where integrity becomes questionable.