DGBass

22 minutes ago, Woodwind said:

Where did you buy this DGBass?

Looks really neat

sent a pm with details. Hope that helps.

3 hours ago, The Simon Of OZ said:

a Evo I MAG 210H has come up second hand. It looks like it is sealed

Must admit I've not come across a sealed MAG 210 cab before, not to say there isnt such a thing. Early ones usually have the port along the front( to the left in the first pic), later ones its two tubes at the rear. The last cloth front ones were also rear ported. The positives with regards to MAG cabs is they do almost the same as the similar ABM's and are relatively cheap as chips which helps budget wise. A tasty good condition one is probably not going to set you back more than 60-70 quid. A tatty one about £40. ABM cabs are better build quality. Meant to add, might be worth contacting Ashdown again and hear it from the horses mouth so to speak as regards cab recommendations. They did have an issue recently where their web customer contact form was broken and hundreds of enquiries went missing. Thye are aware of the problem and are working through back enquiries. A phone call would probably be worth a try to get in touch again.

Very nice pair of basses. I've noticed a few lefty player plus models showing up for sale now and in several different finishes. The light finish looks more cream ( i think it call Pearl) than the polar white of the standard bass. Suits the torte pickguard better imho.The Player maple necks are really nicely finished on these basses and the satin back is smooth and fast. The slim profile is also easy on the hand.

If its the front ported ABM 1x15 wide combo then its probably an older version, maybe an abm 300/300 evo or evo 300. ABM combos were rear ported from evoII on. Ideally as has been said, a matching ashdowm cab of the same vintage would be ideal as it would hopefully contain the same ( blue line sica ?) driver in it. Some of the early combos had Celestions or Eminence as well with the black cone. MAG deep cabs like the 2x10 and 115 are also a good match as they usually had the same drivers in them if its blue lines. The Mag cabs are the same width as well so stacking one under your combo wouldn't look out of place. Stacking on top of wide ABM combos is probably not a good long term propostion as that thin plank on the top is strong enough to hold a long chassis ABM but not much more. I always say if you can't stand on top of a cab/combo without any cracking or splintering sounds, you shouldn't stack on top of it 😆 Assuming a regular sized dude is doing the standing on top. A lightweight 2x10 or similar might not be so bad but if its not Ashdown then you might fall foul of different speaker efficiences where one or the other will be lost or dominate in the mix. And it will look odd. 

One situation where a mix and match might not be so crucial is if you just want an extension monitor cab at the side of the stage or in front of you. Any old tilt back cab might then be a useable proposition.

The best ABM cab I owned and used was an older rear ported EVOII ABM 210H cab. Very solid build and could go as deep and low as any 1x15 ashdown cab I've tried. Good mid performance as well. The very large old school 1x15 ABM ported cabs are good if you like plenty boom and there are a lot about s/h for not too much money. The only downside is they are BIG and not easy to transport. I haven't tried the current pro neo compact sealed cabs or have any interest in doing so and that was mainly because of being fairly dissapointed with the cheaper rootmaster sealed versions. Small sealed cabs are not really my thing tbh and 4x10's are far too much hassle to cart around. If I was buying new and it had to be Ashdown, i'd probably go for the current ABM 210H or the 115H. If budget was limited something like a used evoII MAG 210H would be a useable option as they do almost the same as the ABM version.  

Regarding the wattage of your 4x10 combo, i'm aware of two versions of these early units. It looks like a Mk2 you have and i've seen ones with a PM2S output board( 2 x Hitachi Mosfets ) and a PM4S output board( 4 x Hitachi mosfets). The PM2S has a high voltage supply and gets about 150 watts at 4 ohms from the two mosfets however these were sold as 8 ohm combos so you'll be looking at approx 90-100 watts for the PM2S. Its a loud 100 watts though as the speakers seem very efficient. The extension speaker output jacks on the rear are also blanked off on this model as it was only intended to run at 8 ohms. I have one of the PM2S versions. The speakers in the PM2S version are Celestion TE C10-50L (50 watt) heavy magnet units. 

The PM4S version is around 150 watt as well and usually has at least one available extension speaker jack on the rear panel and can run at 4 ohms. The speakers are different on the PM4S version, I think slightly higher powered Celestions. The back panel is usually a giveawy as to what version you have.

As pointy as I dared go in the 1980s. All points rounded tastefully to avoid having someones eye out.  Still pointy enough though not to be able to stand up straight when leaning against a stack, or a wall etc.

I always use one of these. First rulle of plugging in anything at a gig. There was a time when I gigged big valve amps that I carried a calibrated earth loop impedance tester with me just to be super safe that I had a decent ground. It was a bit overkill but gave peace of mind. Most venues I play these days are pubs and clubs where they usually have to have electrical certificates of compliance for insurance purposes and wiring generally is very good. The little orange plug though is still peace of mind and if the supply is good and the ground checks out, I'm happy and haven't yet had any ground hum or interference issues coming out my speaker. My rack unit also has a slightly more sophisticated anti surge facility as well as a ground and supply check. I suppose next time you are at that same hall, ask to go back to your previous position and outlet to see if the hum is gone. If so its almost certain the other wiring where you got the hum is suspect.

I've been reading this thread with interest and it reminded me of a similar sounding setup used on an old Warwick ProFet 3.2 amplifier that I used for a time which had linear volume pots by design. I initially thought there was something wrong with it as the pre-amp and master knobs didn't behave the same as just about every other amp I had ever used. The ProFet had a clip led on the input and as long as I kept input position just so the clip led would flash intermittently or not at all everything was fine. That was usually around 2 or three oclock. The master was unusual as well and I'm pretty sure it was booming out all its power around one or two oclock but very quiet around nine or ten oclock when most other amps are getting noisy. These were notched pots as well so it was difficult to use the amp at low volume, one notch up was literally the difference between medium loud and full power. 

Changing the pots to smooth ones did help but I read that Warwick themselves sorted the issue in the Profet 3.3 with log pots. The older 3.2's never got much love but they were great amps once you understood them imho. If you've ever been servicing an amplifier and fitted a linear pot where a log pot once was or vice versa, you will realise how quickly a change like that can make an amplifier almost unuseable. For the OP I guess if you have a clip led, dont make it flash no matter what o'clock that is and I'm wondering if there is a manual for your amp with guidance on how to set the input and output knobs for best results? Fingers crossed the builder hadn't got linear pots mixed in with his log pots parts tray when the amp was built. 🤔

Rig of choice this weekend was a little old school, well more than usual. It's such a reassuring feeling having a wall of unstoppable power behind you. No power sag or lag, no auto compression kicking in when you dig in hard, and no running out of steam. Ever. Sounded great and not too shabby a performance for a 37 year old 250watt amplifier and a 43 year old cab. The P-Bass was on its first outing and I have to admit, the satin finish maple player neck was sublime. Very smooth, very slim profile, stayed in tune and has a fast low rattle free action. Very impressed. The bass also weighs nearly a full kg lighter than my USA Standard. Only thing I did notice was that the player pickup while not lacking in output seems more aggressive in the low-mid/mid department and is defintely not as smooth and rounded as its USA Standard counterpart. That's something i'll look into when time allows. All in a very enjoyable backline and the standby LMIII still hasn't had any gig time.

Some handy info in those early TE sales brochures, especially about features and specs of the older models. Thanks for posting @Sparky Mark👍

Jezz, if its your Ashdown MAG you are trying to do this with into a powered sub, there is likely two ways to do it.

1. Take a standard guitar lead and connect it to the tuner/line out on the amp and on the sub find the unbalanced line in socket( if it has one). Turn the levels right down while doing this then gradually increase the levels both ends. The tuner/line out is a fairly hot signal so don't over do the pre-amp volume or it might clip/distort the subs input. Gradually increase until you get the required levels from the sub.

2. The DI out on MAG's are as follows:  600 Ohms balanced, level -20dBu nominal. You need a balanced XLR cable to do this and plug it into the Mag then find the DI INPUT on the sub. Dont use an unbalanced XLR cable.  It might even say on the sub whether it takes balanced or unbalanced. On your MAG the DI is POST pre-amp so is affected by the input volume and tone controls on the amp. Again turn the levels up both ends gradually until you detect output from the sub. Most subs will have the input socket labelled 'input balanced' or 'input unbalanced'.

Two classic p-bass finishes from the late seventies I've always admired were the black/black/maple(JJ Burnel) and the black/white/maple (Dee Dee Ramone). I don't usually mess with standard options on basses however a chance came up to do so recently and I decided to indulge my inner Dee Dee Ramone. Lots of folks go for black/black/maple Precisions but not so much the black/white/maple option. It's even less likely to come up on a leftie. I won't moan about lefties not having the same choice of P-bass finishes as righties ( we dont! 😁) so doing one for myself was fun. Saying that I really like the end result and haven't seen another leftie like it. It's all bog standard Fender MIM and plays as well as any P i've ever played. 

There was a time back in the day(20+ years ago) when it was mandatory to wear a head covering of some sort in my stoner rock band. Black woolly hats or skip caps were acceptable. Almost a hat I suppose. These days head coverings are purely functional to stop brain freeze 😁 No pic the hat didnt happen? I suppose so. The bass hasn't aged at all, everything else has. On another note, I was always impressed by Roger Glover's hat collection. He's the only bassist I can recall who got away with wearing a straw trilby in both Rainbow and Deep Purple. Nice.

Very solid bass amps, i've owned a GP7 and GP11 versions. If you get a chance to try it out, there are a couple of things to look out for which are mostly due to age/use. These are fan cooled and have a high quality metal 110v cooling fan. If the fan makes any clattering noise when its on, the bearings could be on the way out and replacements aren't easy to source these days. The amp also has surge protectors fitted across the mains switch, thease can wear out over time and normally there should be a quiet 'pop' when the amp is turned on heard through a speaker. If you get an almighty bang then the the surge protectors probably need replaced. Thats not difficult or expensive. Last thing i'd mention is the ECI ( earth continuity indicator ) light on the front panel of GP11's. As far as i know this was originally intended as a safety feature to let you know if you were plugged into mains supply with a bad ground. It should stay on if that was the case. In normal use it should flash briefly then go out. The ECI circuit can be a bit temperamental on these old amps and come on intermittently even if there is no earth fault. If the ECI stays on after power on, and its not a bad ground you can also get a fairly obvious clicking sound through the speakers that doesnt go away and the red light blinks. I've never come across an MKIII or a MKIV TE before and the GP7 and GP11 of this era i've owned matched the schematics for MK2 amps. That would put them in the early 80's age wise, perhaps 83-84 which is fast approaching a forty year old amp.  

21 minutes ago, W1_Pro said:

I used to have one of those Musicman boxes. Wonderful device. 

 

I've owned two of these over the years. First one was given to me for free by a retired player back in the late eighties/early nineties and was gigged for over a decade until I sold it on. The second current one in the pic was also donated by an old guitarist aquaintance of mine who rescued it from a skip around 2013. It was fully restored a year later and been my go-to cab since.  Just makes a wonderful deep bass sound and currently at 23kg its not bad considering its size. The originals were 75 watt 8 ohm cabs ( RH115-75) and this one is pimped slightly with an 18mm baffle instead of the original thin fenderish spec 12mm one, a modern high performance 400 watt Neo driver and combi speakons to bring it up to date. I would agree, wonderful and fairly scarce devices these days with plenty life in them yet. 

More a functional pimp rather than anything cosmetic. Changed the original string through only late 90s Fender bridge to a 2010 Fender Deluxe P-Bass version. Same base plate size so no real change to the visual aspect except that I can top load strings which is my preffered way to fit flats.

and...purely cosmetic scratchplate change from white to black on my DeeDee project Precision bass.

1 hour ago, Sparky Mark said:

This is how a GK MB500 Bass Gear Magazine lab test viewed the noon settings and where the EQ controls can be set to achieve an optimally flat signal. 

Very interesting. Just tried this setting on my Backline 600. It does sound almost the same as bypassing the preamp completely by plugging straight into the return. Thats probably as flat as it can get. The return maybe has a little less lo-mid? Just curious now what sort of playing situation you would need an optimally flat voicing for? 

I use a P-Bass and a Jazz bass, both USA models which weigh around just under 4kg each and been playing the p-bass for twenty five years and the Jazz for ten years. It would be fair to say they've both worn me down/ moulded me into the shape I am now. After a three hour show its not uncomfortable around the neck so much anymore as in my fingers and elbow joints. Playing gigs in moderation was a good idea initially but I found not playing as much was just as bad as I got out of condition. I use those squeezy foam balls as often as possible to keep my hands and fingers moving. There are days where i'll quite happily lug a Trace Elliot AH250 and a big cab to a gig only to wish I'd brought the Markbass when my joints start to complain.

As for home practising, I spend time everyday without fail playing to keep my joints moving and i've also recently picked up a used MIM p-bass that weighs just 2.9kg to experiment with. A kg may not sound much of a difference but i have noticed the benfit of a lighter bass. I'll give it a try next gig to see if my American Standard stoop improves🙂 

On 08/01/2023 at 21:44, Sparky Mark said:

The Legacy series uses the same  EQ frequency points as all the GK heads I can find user manuals for going back many years.

 

Yes I would agree with this. RB heads and even as far back as Backline amps appear to use these same voicings. I have one of the very old orange and grey air cooled Backline 250's and a more modern Backline 600 which is as near to an RB400/700 as you can get. With all controls at noon on these amps I wouldn't say it was an optimally flat voicing but it is a very pleasing sound to my ears. I think GK have a consistent default voicing across their amp models and over a period of time thats when folks start on about a GK Sound. I can't think of any pre-amp from any manufacturer i've played through that i'd ever considered being a flat voicing with all knobs at noon. Pre-amp controls are there to be twiddled with to create your sound in my book. That being said, I do like all knobs at noon on my GK's and all the main fun is usually to be had using the contour knob and that wonderful GK boost knob/feature. If I were to change any settings from noon, I would boost the bass to 2 o'clock, cut the lo-mid to 11 o'clock and leave Hi-mid at noon and treble cut at 11 o'clock. Contour @ 2 o'clock and boost at 9 or 10 o'clock. 🙂  Those may be optimal voicings for me but I don't think I could say they were optimally flat for a GK if there is such a thing.

12 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

You don't say how you did your listening tests; if you have two cabs for example so the test was done quickly or of you simple removed the driver but kept the amp settings the same. The latter would of course mean you were testing the 4ohm speaker with twice the power.

Just the same one cab i've been using for the last nine years (a circa 1980 Musicman RH115-75) which has had the driver swapped from 4 to 8 ohms depending on which amp I choose to use with it.  I couldn't say that testing was scientific in any way. It was more down to percieved change in loudness and feel from being very familiar with the setup and playing regular venues where I know how it should sound. It may even be down to how much my trousers were flapping 😉 at 4 ohms (a lot) and 8 ohms (not so much) respectively with the same amp volume. I tend to leave a particular amp i'm using always at the same settings whether rehearshal or gig to a sweet spot where everyone in the band is happy with levels and its loud enough for a gig. I think thats when I first noticed the 4 ohm cab seemed to squeeze that little bit more from a given amplifier at a given volume.

BFM mentioned that turning up the master a bit would also likely level the difference between a 4 and 8 ohm cab. That does seem to work in practice and might be the difference between the master at 10 o'clock or 2 o'clock for me. I suspect the op was originally wondering if there was a way to get as much benefit from his amps rating without the need for an extra cab or perhaps his master was already way up (and maybe dimed ?).  An extra 3db from a 4 ohm speaker might just be enough.

It's a valid question when so many people buy large powerful amps with ratings mostly always quoted at 4 ohms but the amp ends up always being used with an 8 ohm cab and maybe turned up much more to achieve an end result. It's like considering buying an 800 watt amp to go with your 400 watt 8 ohm cab these days and realising after a few gigs you still need a second cab to get the full benefit of any available headroom. All great for new amp and cab sales at the end of the day.

One other benefit i've had with a 4 ohm cab is when using smaller amps like for example a TE AH200 GP12, or a TE AH250 GP11 i've used in the past. All worked really well for smaller venues and I could make good use of the extra 3db at 4 ohms without the need to bring a much larger amp.

The 8 ohm speaker is currently back in my cab as I have a newer bigger amp (600 watts) that would probably over stress a 4 ohm 15PR-400 after a few shows. If the new amp works out and my old MM cab doesn't shake apart, I may be using the 8 ohm version in future or until I can afford a much higher capacity 4 ohm driver and for the op's benefit that won't be cheap. It was all much simpler when I used Marshall Superbass amps, impedance matching gave me a selector on the back panel and I always got 100 watts whether it was 4, 8 or 16 ohms and it always seemed loud enough.

Thanks both, all makes sense and if you are interested in the speaker i've used over the past few years to make 4 ohm and 8 ohm comparisons, its a Faital Pro 15PR400 in the same cab with the same set of amps of varying power ratings. There are a few differences in specifications on the speaker vendor website between the 4 and 8 ohm versions but at the time I chose this driver it seemed a good fit and in practice it sounds good and has worked extremely well for me. I do hear and feel a difference using the 4 ohm version. It may actually be small in technical terms but it is noticeable and keeps me in one cab single speaker 4 ohm territory. My amps all work well at 4 ohms and I'm happy that a 4 ohm setup gives me an edge over an 8 ohm setup.

Thanks for that, if I can add one more scenario:  If I add an identical 8 ohm cab to the original 8 ohm cab, maintain the same given volume knob setting as in the first comparision and same sound source settings, what measure of loudness increase could I expect compared to the single 8 ohm cab and the single 4 ohm cab? And... will the amplifier in theory be supplying the same voltage and current to the paired 8 ohm cabs in parallel as it would have been with the single 4 ohm driver at the same amplifier volume setting? Hope that makes sense.

Perhaps I could pose an example to the more knowledgeable forum users which does still bear a relation to the op's original question about essentailly squeezing more out of his setup by having a 4 ohm load. If I have an amplifier that the manufacturer says will deliver 500w into a 4 ohm load by design, and have two identical speaker cabs each loaded with single 15 inch drivers of a suitable power rating from the same manufacturer, same driver model, with same power rating and manufacturers sensitivity rating, and one is a 4 ohm version and one is an 8 ohm version. For a given identical output setting on the amplifier when used with either speaker cabinet using an identical sound source, should there be any expected difference in loudness between the 4 ohm setup or the 8 ohm setup?

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

It will, but it has nothing to do with power, everything to do with voltage. The amp puts out the same voltage into any load. (A good thing that is, because the actual impedance isn't a constant, it varies with frequency, so if this wasn't the case every frequency would be at a different level.) If all else other than impedance is equal, which it never is, with the same voltage applied the cone of the 4 ohm driver will move further than the cone of the 8 ohm driver. This results in a 3dB increase in output. There can be tone differences as well, because all else isn't equal, including but not limited to inductance and moving mass. As for the perceived increase in dynamics at high levels, that's also voltage related. An amp's dynamic response suffers when it's pushed close to its voltage output limit. Using a lower impedance driver gives more voltage headroom from the amp, which gives better dynamic response. This begs the question 'why not always use low impedance drivers?'. The answer is that the lower the impedance the higher the current draw, which can create its own set of problems. 

I was really just saying that there was a noticeable real world difference with my setups when running into a 4 ohm cab and I thought that may be of interest to the OP if they ever decide to get another cab or maybe even a single higher powered 4 ohm cab. I've been lucky enough to try about a dozen different amps mostly class AB types into the same cab at 4 or 8 ohms at some point over the years and they all felt much more responsive with the 4 ohm cab option. I would agree all sorts of variables will come into play depending on how an amplifier is used whether its a 4 ohm or 8 ohm load. I haven't blown a driver or an amp fuse or smoked anything so far( in the last ten years at least) using single speaker 4 ohm cabs or 8 ohm cabs and I'm using the amps within the manufacturers ( claimed ) limits/ specs. So I'm assuming the setups i've used can handle any vairiables or additional stresses running at 4 ohms may introduce comfortably.