ambient

Have to agree totally .

[quote name='Graham' timestamp='1445617050' post='2892887'] I have a suspicion it's partly down to both guitarists and bassists no knowing how to make their sound fit into a live mix, there are enough players who's live amp settings are exactly the same as their in isolation, practice settings, because that's "their sound". This is often a mid-scooped, bass biased sound, which in a live mix sounds muddy and incoherent. Standing next to their amp, they can hear the sound they're used to, but can't hear themselves, so the only option is to turn up louder and use brute force to be heard. [/quote] This would be their dialed in 'Marcus Miller' tone.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1445537357' post='2892291'] So that the audience can't talk. Keep up! [/quote]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1445536822' post='2892284'] But why? (not why you thought they did, but why they do like it loud)? [/quote] I find it baffling . Why would you want to play at such a volume, that you need hearing protection, which then makes it quieter anyway .

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1445497677' post='2891840'] Well the OP did start off saying about the drums being miked up, so this is a band that wants to be louder than a drumkit allows, without that you are pretty much stuck at playing at the drummer's level. I feel sorry for drummers, even if you find the fabled drummer who can play quiet I'd still want to use the whole dynamic range of my kit. I'd find it tough if someone told me I could only play bass gently. You could have louder and quieter kits but who has the space to store multiple kits never mind the expense, though I suspect drummers have GAS too. No sympathy for the over loud guitarist though. The rot was there from the start. When I ran sound for bands in the early 70's you struggled to be heard with PA limited to a pair of WEM columns. Instrument amps had to reach the back of the room unaided so the Marshall full stack was born. Singers sang in their higher range just to cut through, a lot of rock norms/cliches were born of necessity. Now gear is cheap and the easy (lazy?) way of playing classic rock is to just copy the gear from your heroes, who would have killed to be able to use the equipment we have now. GAS is a problem too, most bands are amateurs whose hobby it is. Buying the best gear you can afford and lots of it is part of the fun, once you have it you've got to give it a run out haven't you. Even I had a lot of fun at one gig where my drummer shouted at me to turn up and I did. Spent the first half not needing to pick and damping the strings which were singing with feedback, and oh the tone Very gratifying to have said drummist saying he couldn't hear his own snare drum. He hasn't asked me to turn up since strangely. But you can't sound your best at the volumes a lot of pub bands play at and I'm with the people who say you should be playing for the audiences not yourselves, especially if someone is paying you to play. There are lots of good technical reasons why keeping sound levels down is better and really there is no excuse. [/quote] I haven't mentioned mic'ing drums, agree with you that music does sound better when the volume is lower. You have more control over everything. Why do people mic drums in pubs though ? I think you're correct re the gas thing. You can buy stupidly powerful rigs now for silly money. The bass player from the one jazz band I dep for wheels in a 4x10 cab at each gig. Bear in mind that most of the band's gigs are in small pubs on Sunday afternoons. I use possibly the smallest combo on the planet 😁.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1445460489' post='2891726'] When you go to a gig you should be listening to the band, not talking. [/quote] I think talking about the music, saying "that was nice", or I liked that song", or maybe "the bass player is good isn't he ?", is ok.

[quote name='ribbetingfrog' timestamp='1445445388' post='2891555'] My band are only rehearsing at the mo, first gig in December. We have the most unusual problem of not being able to hear the guitars! Loud drummer, bass and vocals sitting nicely, and no matter how much we ask the guitarists to turn up we can't hear them. Must be a first. [/quote] Maybe turn down to meet them ? 😊

I actually find it quite annoying sometimes when I see a gig, and can't hear what I'm saying to people.

[quote name='roman_sub' timestamp='1445434897' post='2891453'] +1 on drummer's fault for rehearsals / smaller gigs. For larger gigs, refer to Deep Purple legacy, and the fact that audiences seem to expect to feel the soundwaves! [/quote] Kind of agree that it can be. However the drummer in the jazz group is a very experienced pro, he kept glancing over at me last night, shaking his head .

[quote name='Naetharu' timestamp='1445433391' post='2891434'] I guess it depends on the style of music and the settings in which it is being played. If you were to turn up to a gig like you describe and crank a 200-watt valve amp running into a 810 cab I doubt you'd be made very welcome. But then, by the same measure the opposite would be true if I were go play a prog-metal gig with a little Phil Jones combo running at conversational volume. Saying that, I do think that the quest for volume is a bit silly. I've been battling with a guitarist who is far too obsessed with volume over the past couple of months. It ended up with myself and the singer having to have a bit of an intervention with him last week and ask him to massively reduce his volume - he was trying to run a JCM2000-DSL100 head (a big 100-watt Marshall amp) into a 410 with the volume cranked to around 3 o'clock in our practice room. The only way you could hear my bass was for me to get it to a level where it was literally shaking the room. In his case he is new to playing in bands and just assumes that louder is cool - when in fact all it does is make it impossible to hear the definition of what is being played. Spinal Tap syndrome I guess. The main factor in volume I think comes down the drummer - for heavy music where the drummer really needs to dig in to get the kind of attack needed to carry the beat it's going to be louder and thus so is everyone else. And to a point that sonic onslaught is part of the tone. Its just getting a balance between loud enough to make it sound massive and yet not so loud that you just make it into a horrible noise. [/quote] I see your point about playing jazz at ridiculous volumes. It's a relative thing though. I think we've playing too loud for the style of music. At first the guy who's band it is didn't see it, but he understands what I'm saying now. I rehearsed with them last night, that's something I don't usually do, but they had a new guitarist along, and wanted a full band. They were way too loud last night, and totally lost the effect of the music. There's being the appropriate volume for a specific genre, but then there's being loud for that genre. I guess that's what I'm trying to say.

There's a thread at the moment about hearing loss, another about tinnitus, and yet another asking about ear plugs. So why do we play so loud in the first place ? The reason I'm asking, I did a really beautiful jazz gig on Sunday, in a tent at an apple and cider festival in Worcestershire. It was one of the nicest gigs that I've played. We were nice and quiet, and totally in control of the music's dynamics, and every instrument could be heard perfectly. Everyone there enjoyed at, and we had dozens of compliments on the music, and enquires about booking us.

Their nickel EXL strings are amazing, and great value. Just take a look at the people who use them, Michael Manring and John Patitucci for instance.

Thanks for the link to the interview. He's an amazing player, and it's quite scary when you see him, no denying who's son he is. I was a little disappointed with the Yelllow jackets album though.

They're undoubtably great basses. I've played one, but I like to play chords, so they don't work for me.

I've never used the interface that you've got. Have you downloaded drivers for it, and selected it in your preferences ? If you want to buy a new one, then the Focusrite Safire gets very good reviews.

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1445174231' post='2889264'] In hindsight, not so brilliant. It annoyed me that I'd done a bad job at that video, given its intention to be a 'for dummies'. I've thought about it, and done, effectively, a longer video split into four individual videos. I won't delete the first one just yet as it covers some audio, but I think that these four are better for those who want a gentle introduction. Only in the fourth video does the routing get complex. But, there are some things I really wish I hadn't done. E.g. starting to waffle on obscurely about all the inlets of the route object in the last video. When I do these, I REALLY need to have a script and STICK TO IT. This is one reason I planned to break it into chunks. So, if there's something I decide I need to fix, I can do so in a modular fashion. [media]http://youtu.be/gPPbdIH7b74[/media] [media]http://youtu.be/w4pticDcFZE[/media] [media]http://youtu.be/Dp4otkkL2bc[/media] [media]http://youtu.be/qlQP57RuKUw[/media] In case anyone's wondering, I decided that I would like to have a series of basic Max/MSP videos myself, as well as for the potential use of ambient or anyone reading this thread. Pete Batchelor's ones are good, but I wonder given some of the comments I read here whether there is a need for something that comes in slower and takes smaller steps. PS: Having re-read Ambient's first post, can I say this. For a number of things, particularly computer programming (which Max/MSP is, it just doesn't look like it), there is often a steep learning curve. Sometimes it takes a fair while of figuratively banging your head against the wall, persevering until suddenly the lightbulb comes on and it starts making sense. Some people give up during the first period before the lightbulb comes on. But, they would probably have worked it out had they stuck at it a bit longer. Please persevere, there is a pot of musical gold at the end of the digital rainbow. [/quote] Thanks for doing this. I have 2 weeks before the next lecture on this subject, this coming weeks is something a lot simpler. So I'm going to spend time over that period watching the videos and writing reams of notes. I've been listening to some of the music done by my lecturer, she uses a lot live electronics and strings and piano. So I can now start to see the benefits of learning to use it. There's also the interactive thing with it, that would be really cool.

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1445031591' post='2888397'] Video up. Please select 1080p. [/quote] Brilliant, thank you !

[quote name='ironside1966' timestamp='1445024972' post='2888320'] I used it for a while, don't worry it took me a long time to get my head round it. It helps if you understand what you are building, If you are building a subtractive synth you need a basic understanding of subtractive synthesis and the elements involved. The hard part for me was remebering what to use, how to make the objects and what to write in the boxes so my advice would be, make a notes of the things you most use, spend at least 10 minutes a day with it once you stop using it you soon forget so keep at it. have a look on you tube there is plenty of help Good luck with you course. [/quote] Thanks for the tips:).

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1445024567' post='2888317'] I use Max/MSP extensively. I recommend Pete Batchelor's tutorials. You only really need to watch the early ones for the basics. [url="http://www.peterbatchelor.com/maxTuts.html"]http://www.peterbatc...om/maxTuts.html[/url] The later ones become quite advanced quite quickly, but good if you want to get deeply into music creation with it. IMHO the built in Max/MSP tutorials are quite good. But, I could imagine people wanting something even more basic. If you think Max/MSP is difficult to understand, I strongly recommend that you do not try to learn Supercollider. I had been using Supercollider and Java before Max/MSP, so found Max/MSP a doddle by comparison. [/quote] An expert brilliant . Thanks for the link, I shall have a read of that later, and make notes. Do you have anything that you've done that I can hear please ? I think that's the main thing, I'm a bit unsure exactly what it is that you can do with it. The lecturer put up something she'd done, it looked a bit like a map to the Rome subway system or something, but it could create single notes, that she could alter the pitch and timbre of, by adjusting values in some of the boxes. Another option we could use was a program called ChucK. Something covering the basics would be an amazing help please. Thanks everyone .

[quote name='M@23' timestamp='1445017361' post='2888252'] Just seeing the thread title made me shiver... We used it a bit at uni, it wasn't my sort of thing and was a bit of a nightmare I seem to remember! Best of luck! [/quote] Thanks . It's really not anything I've ever really been into. All of my stuff is basically 'real', and just me. I just use a lot of effects and looping, and a bit of messing around afterwards.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1445003403' post='2888092'] For a lot of electronic based composition understanding the relationship between tempos, milliseconds and musical note lengths is one of the basic things you need. [/quote] Yeah, it's something I'm going to have to figure out. It doesn't help that I'm hopeless with maths.

[quote name='r16ktx' timestamp='1444979857' post='2887735'] MaxMSP is a visual programming language that helps you build complex, interactive [audio] programs without any prior experience with programming. Taken from; http://www.instructables.com/id/Intro-to-MaxMSP/ Not that has any certainty of helping. Is it the programming concepts, the audio concepts, or both, that are unclear? [/quote] Thanks for the reply. It's the whole thing. The lecturer was trying to get us to solve a mathematical problem, tempos and milliseconds. I was like, whaaaaat ? One of my ex tutors from my BMus has recommended I start with Pure Data first, and then move onto Max. I'll try that. Though I fear my brain isn't designed for such things 😁.

I just earlier spent 2 hours in a lecture about this. Damned if I could understand a word of it . Has anyone any experience of using it, and can you recommend a good, easy to understand, made for idiots guide ?

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1444899905' post='2887053'] This, but more because I hate letting myself down. Folk won't remember the short notice, or the lack of communication, they'll remember the hapless bassist. And by 'folk', I don't mean the punters, obviously: they won't remember there was a bassist there at all... EDIT: Yeah, time permitting, of course. I'm in the fortunate position wherein I pay my mortgage from other sources than playing music, so I can pick and choose what gigs I take, and I'll turn down anything I don't think I can do justice to. I was offered a very short-notice blues gig a while ago which I turned down because not only do I not enjoy blues, I know I'm not well enough versed in it as a genre (because I don't like it) to bring anything other than muddled winging, which no-one would have appreciated. Possibly. I know I wouldn't have... As a side note, I notice no-one's given any attention to listening to the tone used in certain songs...if you want to produce a convincing performance of a song, then at least an attempt to recreate the tone of the original (if it's at all iconic or distinct) is pretty important, which does require a listen. Punters might not care about our core bass tone, but they'll appreciate when a song played by the band sounds like the one they're familiar with. It's all about degrees, but if I'm following Never Too Much with Folsom Prison Blues, I at least have a twitch of the tone knobs... [/quote] That's quite hilarious, sorry. Tweaking the tone knob is not going to get you sounding like James Jamerson, or Pino or anyone but you with a different tone. And who's even going to notice ? You could wheel out your whatever P bass with 20 year old strings for the Motown medley, but what about the guitar sound, or the horns or the keyboard sounds ? Are the brass stabs going to sound authentic played on a Yamaha keyboard ? I totally agree with Bilbo. I've done dep gigs where I'm expected to learn 40 or so songs. One even asked me if I'd let them keep the charts that I'd painstakingly written out for the gig, so they'd have it for use in the future.