ambient

It’s not just that though. For someone to come here and play, they need a certificate of sponsorship. That has to be issued by an approved and licensed promoter or organiser. How many organisers are going to do that? There’s thousands of creative and artistic events take place every year across the UK, they’re mostly done by independent organisers, with little or no budget. They’re not going to get licensed or officially approved, therefore the guy coming from Amsterdam with his MacBook and midi controller won’t be able to come.

Eurostar to Brussels is a couple of hours, then Thalys to Germany is another hour or so. My trip to Paris a fortnight ago was £36 return. My trip to Stockholm cost me £70 return. I could have flown, my university was paying. They were really happy when I said I’d rather go by train. My friend is currently playing and doing some bass masterclasses in Italy, he’s gone by train. My friend who’s a cellist played in Portugal with Gavin Bryars last year, she went by train. Like I say, there’s no hassle with your gear, it’s city centre to city centre. It’s so easy. It’s not just economics though, that’s what I was saying on here a few hours ago, it’s the cross pollination of ideas, actually meeting people from other countries and playing together, or just seeing first hand what they’re doing.

I travel by train 😁. Most people I know do, it’s cheaper, easier, they don’t make a fuss about gear, and it’s green.

The ending of FoM is only for us too.

Do you think trading with America or the Far East is a particularly good idea, bearing in mind the distances involved and the need to cut down on unnecessary transportation? You also didn’t answer my earlier question when I asked what you thought our farmers would do when our market is flooded with American cheap food.

Maybe ask Martin if he’s seen it recently?

I did something similar 6 or 7 years ago with a really old Yamaha TRB6P. Luckily the guy understood.

Many for the money, many because they enjoy it, many for academic reasons, it depends on the specific field. The point is, whatever their reason, they’re going to run up against obstacles. As was said earlier on this thread, the event that someone is attending has to be by a licensed promoter or organiser. The majority of the tens of thousands of events that take place are independent, so a visa won’t be issued. A friend of mine is currently on a solo tour of Italy, he’s doing a few gigs, and some bass masterclasses. It probably wouldn’t have happened with all the extra expenses.

I should imagine that people coming to Europe from the US will need to get another visa for their European crew, if they’re bothered to come to this backwater.

You’re missing the point. It’s not just the monetary side. Art itself has intrinsic value, which is fostered and enhanced by collaboration with people. That’s why travel is vital for academic artistic practice.

It’s not just musicians, it’s every part of the artistic and creative industry. It’s also preventing us from going there. I’ve played over there as a solo experimental artist several times, I’ve also done academic work there through my PhD, that too will be affected.

The music business....sorry I mean the whole creative industry has moved on since the early 1970s. You’ve performed or worked there in a creative capacity how many times?

Do you write for the Daily Mail? Most countries have adopted the EU’s very strict food standards, the reason being, they don’t want poorly produced foodstuffs. What happens to our farmers and food producers whilst we’re importing cheap American stuff?

This has exactly what to do with the topic?

It’s not just bands; that seems to be the misunderstanding here and in other places, where people are saying that bands toured in the 60s and 70s. Though they’re really demonstrating a misunderstanding of how the modern independent music scene works with that comment. People saying we should move with the times are missing the point too. This is the times, being able to jump on a Eurostar and perform without hindrance in Paris; or vice versa is the times, that’s how the current scene has evolved to work. No, it’s arts in general, be it solo performers in the experimental scene, painters, poets, authors, actors, dancers, basically all creatives. I would argue that the reason we have such a vibrant and respected arts scene, is due in part to the cross pollination of ideas, fostered by close collaborations with other artists from across Europe. I’ve seen it, and experienced it.

It’s not just a question really wanting to, it comes down to the economics. You also need to consider that people on this side of the channel; the promoter or organiser will also have added expenditure. They need to be licensed and issue a sponsorship certificate. Bear in mind that most of the thousands of little art and music festivals that take place across the UK every year, are running to a very tight budget, they just won’t bother. I’m not referring to the likes of Glastonbury, my university holds several experimental music festivals each year, there’s the Huddersfield festival that attracts visitors from across the UK and Europe. Also bear in mind that they spend money when they come.

The Edinburgh festivals; fringe and literature, and Womad have had problems over the last few years. They’ve invited people over, and their visa application has been turned down. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jun/06/edinburgh-arts-festivals-lobby-for-urgent-visa-reforms I’m guessing it’ll even affect larger US bands too? If they’re on tour and are used to hiring a European crew, they’ll have to get visas for them to be able to travel here.

I was just reading a report in the Guardian, warning about the potential rise in modern day slavery within agriculture following the changes. Unless you’re prepared to spend more on your fruit and vegetables, then it’s inevitable. Are the 100,000 vacancies in NHS England going to be filles from within the UK? I’m guessing not otherwise there would’ve be the vacancies. Nurses and doctors are going abroad to work, where they’re better looked after. My aim once I have my PhD is to move abroad. I know many people the same. Everything I’m currently doing is with that in mind. I’m studying french for an hour or so a day, I’m doing teacher training modules at the same time as my PhD. I have another year and a half. Will I be missed? Probably not, but I believe the UK will ultimately be a lot poorer in many ways if they continue along this road. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/immigration-rules-post-brexit-could-fuel-modern-slavery-say-charities

Do you seriously believe that things will improve for workers? The cheap Eastern European worker is a myth. How many British born people do you know would work in a field in the pouring rain and cold picking whatever seasonal crop, for the minimum wage? The crops will and are going unpicked. Bottoms will go unwiped in nursing and care homes. They’re on average better qualified and better trained that UK workers, their qualifications and training obtained abroad, so not at our expense. What they’re actually doing, if you look properly, is making it harder for you and I to go abroad to work. They’ve also lowered the salary cap for workers from abroad, and lowered the minimum qualification from a degree to the equivalent of an A level. Bearing in mind that most Europeans have a fantastic grasp of English, then the requirement to speak English won’t be much of a hindrance. This thread though, is meant to be about musicians and other creatives coming here, and us going there. Everyone I know from both sides of the channel who has performed abroad, in whatever capacity is saying the new rules will prevent them from doing so in the future. The only people who aren’t, have probably never performed abroad, and probably have never had any intention of doing so. Therefore I would rather listen to those who have, than those who’re talking without any experience. As an artist and an academic, it will cause massive disruption, and negatively impact what I do.

The music business has changed massively since the 1960s. The additional costs will prohibit travelling to play; both us going to Europe, and them coming here.

That’s exactly it. I’m already hearing about airlines hiring people with passports from the remaining 27 EU countries, over UK passport holders. With regard to artists coming here, both WOMAD and the Edinburgh literature festival have had problems with people invited to perform having their visa applications turned down. Academics coming over to conference have suffered too.

I didn’t realise that Thomas, though I guess it’s because most organisers aren’t officially licensed, which they need to be to issue sponsorship certificates?

It’s going to have an affect all across the arts. Imagine the cost for an orchestra or a ballet company. It’s going to affect academia too, which really relies on people travelling about, sharing ideas and their work. We will become a backwater.

The website is very contradictory. If you click on the certificate of sponsorship on that website, it takes you to the tier 5 visa, for which there’s a £244 fee. I agree £5 a week isn’t a lot, but most people travel to the UK just for a week or so, to do a few gigs. This will be on top of all the other new costs; VAT payable upfront on merchandise, health insurance, the cost of a carnet. What will be the real disaster is the requirement for the organiser to be licensed.

This is something a friend of mine just posted. I organised an event last year that he played at in Birmingham. He lives in Amsterdam.