Lowender

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1371033657' post='2108807'] Given that , very common, scenario, which matters more, you, or the audience? [/quote] This is the major disagreement. It isn't a contest between me and the audience. It's me wanting to give the audience the best performance possible and I can't do that if my bass sounds like crap. Also, I've stepped into the audience and listened to mixes and simply disagree with what sounds better. So should the soundman's opinion carry more weight than mine? I do engineering and production as well. I'm not oblivious to what's a good sound. I don't want to make this out like I have a problem with soundmen. I almost never do. My point is just that some soundmen want to control the music and I don't think the musicians should let them if they honestly disagree. But this is all subjective. Without an actual situation to evaluate, it's impossible to say who would be right or wrong.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1371033065' post='2108797'] To be clear, it's the FOH sound guy's job to make it sound good for the audience, not his job to make it sound good to the band. ................... [size=5][i]I couldn't disagree more. That's a terrible approach. If what the band is hearing sounds bad, how are they supposed to give a good performance? It's the band that is playing, not the soundman.[/i][/size] ......................... We're there to entertain the audience and if it sounds bad to the audience because each member of the band wants to be louder than each other then you're in a really bad place. .................................... [size=5][i]Who said anything about being louder? [/i][/size] ...................................... The backline or if you're lucky, the IEMs or monitor mix are for the band. ............................................ [size=5][i]But if I'm using my rig, it's going to sound better than a cheap monitor. Good soundmen know this.[/i][/size] [size=5][i]...........................[/i][/size] If you're doing one of those type of gigs or regularly doing them you need to asses whether your choice of backline is appropriate as it will be affecting 'your sound' as far as that's not what the audience are going to be hearing. ........................................................... [size=5][i]Sometimes you have to work with what you have, but whatever you work with, you need to hear yourself. It's like asking a guitar player to play a ripping solo with no overdrive -- but they'll be overdrive coming out of the P.A! Or asking a drummer to hit the drums softly and just turn him up in the mix. No...it doesn't feel the same. This is where some soundmen don't understand the mechanics of playing an instrument. Having said that, in most major venues I've played, it's never a problem. It's usually the slumbs in the clubs who are the clueless lots.[/i][/size] [/quote] ...............................

Bottom line -- I go with whatever the sound guy recommends, but if it doesn't sound good to me, I don't want an argument about it. I don't want to hear that it sounds good "in the audience." To me, that's just saying that he wants his job to be easier when in fact , his job is to give me what I need and then make it sound as good as possible. The "tech" side of it is irrelevant to that fact.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370963823' post='2108011'] You are totally crap at having a discussion aren't you. Why do you bother? You make intelligent pronouncements with some thought provoking insight and they are interesting to read, regardless of whether other people may agree with your point of view. However, if someone challenges your opinion, you turn into a wet f*cking flannel, unable to add anything of any value or accept and discuss others' opinions. Stop being a prima donut and DISCUSS stuff rationally will you ffs. [/quote] It's not that. I don;t get the sense that you're challenging or debating or discussing anything. You just provoke by nitpicking minutia and I'm not in the mood to go back and forth. I explained myself. If you don't get it, you don't get it. .

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370960728' post='2107967'] Mate, you don't really think it's the music those girls are screaming about do you? Seeing the fag four in the flesh makes real a year of freshly-pubescent fantasies, that's why they are screaming and fainting and knicker-wetting. [/quote] sigh

Geez, lighten up guys. It's not a comment about celebrity,or fashion, or adolescence. The "screaming girls" comment was rhetorical of sorts -- to suggest that something is just so moving or just so much fun, it makes you want to to react. THAT is a part of good music. True, something being popular doesn't necessarily mean it's good. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. And something unpopular doesn't necessarily mean it's just for sophisticated audiences. Sometimes it's unpopular simply because it stinks.

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370949607' post='2107751'] If applause and dancing punters is enough for folk, then they will have long and happy careers. I am genuinely happy for them. It's not what motivates me, that's all. My loss? I don't think so but I have never been attracted to that part of the industry. Actually, thinking about it, if that is the element that motivates anyone, they shouldn't really complain about Cowell etc. It is what drives him sothey should admire him. Shouldn't they? [/quote] I think we have a chicken/egg scenario here. There's a difference between being an entertainer and a ham. If applause and a dancing crowd is all you want and will stoop to any level to get it , well, that is hardly art. But to create good music that also makes people want to dance and applaud -- that's something very special. All the greats had it, from Mozart to Basie to Coltrane and Corea. Didn't you make a post recently where you were listening to one of your own songs and you weren't aware of it? Well, if it wasn't memorable to you, how memorable do you think it would be to others? Something to consider. Art is communication. Art can be entertaining. Excluding all enjoyable aspects from it doesn't make it more artsy. It just makes it less good.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1370938152' post='2107552'] They are screaming at 4 good-looking young men on stage playing up-beat catchy pop songs. The "bass hook" or any other individual instrumental part is irrelevant. [/quote] That bass line is what makes the chorus catchy. It's far from irrelevant. (if you care about the role of the bass and its power).

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1370945278' post='2107692'] This. You could replace The Beatles with the Bay City Rollers, Justin Bieber or whoever - the reason they are screaming is that teenagers are, in the main, stupid easily led pack animals. [/quote] The difference is, a half century after the fact, a generation far removed from the hype is listening to and enjoying this. Why is that? Oh yeah....it's good.

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370937480' post='2107541'] If you play for applause, that is all you will ever get ( charity shops are full of cds thatby bands that teenage girls once screamed at). [/quote] Yeah, who wants applause. In fact, who wants an audience? They just get in the way.

Write a bass hook that makes 5000 teen age girls scream in ecstasy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyw9f1JiEyo

A version where most of the string parts are played on bass. Pick one. : ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyPUtYhMpuE

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1370684703' post='2104305'] It was just another way of a generation of disaffected yoof to say saying 'F*** you'! We all did it one way or another. [/quote] Agreed. And with any artistic/cultural movement, there are going to be some interesting things that come from it. Throw paint at a canvas 1000 times and a couple of them might wind up looking pretty good. That's the way the anarchistic fashion of art goes. Punk also added an energy to music that'd been lacking. But it soon dissipated.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370655388' post='2104133'] Do you love Rickenbackers by any chance? [/quote] ??? I'm sure that a reference to ....something. I have 9 basses -- one of them is a Rick. It's not the most versatile instrument but it's like nothing else. But that was a rhetorical question, wasn't it?

Actually, it was a pure marketing scheme -- supposedly a rebellion against the ever increasing pomposity of rock music and bringing it back to the "street musicians." Any idiot with a guitar and an attitude could play it. And the critics decided who was "important." Having said that, The Sex Pistols had a couple of good songs.

Eh, semantics. Talk about not seeing the forest through the trees. I really don't care about anyone's definition of "punk." My point was...he was a rebellious type, kept in line by Mac who was more of a people pleaser. When you have that attitude and the world looks to you as a spokesman and you;re 24 years old, it's a reality none of us can comprehend. At any rate -- try singing and playing All My Lovin. Or "You Won't See Me." Or "Just Another Day." Mac did it like it was second nature.

And BTW, although their early stuff may be on the trite side (but fun as hell) check out the bass on All My Lovin'. It's very busy, yet all in first position with open strings. There's hardly any hand movement. It's brilliant. He was only 20 years old. Now play it and sing it at the same time.

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1370645815' post='2104051'] Lennon was the original punk? Well how about that! They say you live and learn. [/quote] In a way, yes. Rock and Roll was young and there weren't any "anti establishment types' that were making hit records. If you know of someone else, please share.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1370618949' post='2103593'] Somewhat perhaps But Liam's just a thick c*nt with an attitude, Lennon was a highly intelligent and articulate person who took delight in belittling people for pleasure. I understand he apologised occasionally but I can't abide that sort of emotional cruelty. It's so f***ing hard for me to like his music because of that, but nevertheless, I adore She Said She Said. [/quote] I won't defend Lennon because he could be a real jerk at times. But realize, he was the original "punk" and had the world adoring him until his "retirement" at the age of 30. They say Beethoven wasn't a nice man either. That doesn't diminish his contribution. And glad to hear you're coming around to appreciating the boys. There's plenty more.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1370534784' post='2102368'] So it's not a Cud song? [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD8ASzGVs3g[/media] [/quote] I kinda like that, but at that tempo it loses that cool groovin Glen Cornick bass line.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1370565455' post='2102938'] Chaps, I would call your examples of pre 1962 music R&B, Blues and Rock and Roll. I've got a lot of that stuff on record and while much of it reached the charts I still wouldn't call it pop music. [/quote] It wasn't. Just as John Coltrane wasn't pop music. R&B was a cultural and regional thing. Of course, Elvis was influenced by it and brought it to a mainstream audience and THAT became the beginning of pop rock and roll . But most of the hit music of the 50's and early 50's was sappy junk. The war was over. People were prospering and all they wanted was to fall in love and get married and the music reflected that.

There are highs and lows in pop music. There are exceptions of course, but in general... Highs -- Big band era, late 60's, early 70's, scattered 80's. Lows, The 50's, 2000's Look at the Billboard Top 100. In the late 60's there were about 30 great songs each year. But the 90's there were maybe 3.

Any similarity to modern music is simply the fact that they were so influential. Yet no one has come close to their greatness. Maybe a good song here or there. I don't think record companies try to get people to sound like the Beatles. If anything, that's not the sound they want these days. But a lot of bands try to write great songs and the Beatles had A LOT of great songs. The closest I've heard anyone to actually sounding like the BEatles is The Zombies Odysey and Oracle and of all things, a one hit wonder called "Lies" but eh Knickerbackers. But that stuff was back in the 60's! BTW: Rubber Soul, Sgt Pepper and Abby Road are also all masterpieces and sound like three different bands. Bottom line. They were genius. And McCArty constructed some of the most musical bass lines you'll ever hear. Simple, yet masterful in voice leading and logical movement.

Glen Cornick's solo on "Bouree" (from Stand Up) is one of the most musical bass solos you'll ever hear.

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1370448874' post='2101070'] I suspect it's the idea that the II V I progression is in some way particularly characteristic of jazz - it's one of the simplest and most common progressions in western diatonic music (and therefore also common in jazz, especially the kind based on "standards"). But I could be wrong. And I'm not taking sides. In fact, I was never here. You've not seen me, right? EDIT for thread relevance: yes, the doc looks very interesting. Thanks for posting. [/quote] That was pretty much it. But you didn't hear it from me. : )