rslaing

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='496892' date='May 24 2009, 10:41 PM']You still here rslaing?[/quote] Another "on topic" comment...........(not)

[quote name='dlloyd' post='496893' date='May 24 2009, 10:43 PM']No it can't. The fretboard is equally tempered. To just temper it, you need to physically move the frets.[/quote] [b]No you don't - just move or use a compensated nut (haven't you read the Feiten blurb yet?) and then use a Peterson tuner - set it to whatever temperament you like[/b]

[i] ""The peterson probably can help with equal temperament stuff by using compensated tunings, but this is more to do with features than accuracy. Also, even with funny tunings and intonations this can only help hide the problems caused by equal temperament frets. It cannot make an equal temperament fretboard produce, for example, a just temperament scale. [b]OH YES IT CAN. READ THE MANUAL ONLINE[/b] The only way to do this is by bending each note to the right pitch, which you are then reckognising by ear, so the accuracy of the tuner is rather wasted. [b]RUBBISH! imho[/b] Fretting harder than you normally do could be down to bad technique. [b]CORRECT[/b] Plucking harder and softer is a necessary part of playing - unless you play all your notes at the same volume - which would be rather boring. [b]SOUNDS LIKE AN EXCUSE TO ME[/b] Not pressing the string completely normal to the keyboard might be bad technique, but I'm sure every one does it ocassionally. [b]REALLY?[/b] Strings going out of tune with temperature is nothing to do with technique, more physics. [b]BUY AN INSTRUMENT WITH A GRAPHITE NECK - LESSER CHANCE [/b] Strings going flat when you fret two strings is nothing to do with technique (unless your technique means only ever playing one note at a time)[b]BOLLOCKS[/b] Intonation will not be accurate at all frets - nothing to do with technique. Compensating tunings help - but do not solve the problem. [b]YES THEY DO. I have a strobe tuner that has proved this to be the case - have you?[/b] I'm not saying, and never said, that the cheaper tuners are more accurate than the peterson or the turbo thingamy, but that in 99% of cases they are quite accurate enough. [b]NOT IN MY EXPERIENCE, NOR THE PROFESSIONALS I HAVE WORKED WITH - and I wouldn't want a pro luthier to set up any of my expensive instruments with el crappo £20 tuner[/b] In most real situations there are many features of a tuner that are more important than accuracy. For stage use I'd be looking at robustess, readabilty for 2 metres away on a dark stage, Speed of response, abilty to pick up the fundamental and, if its a stomp box style, the ability to mute the output while the tuner is active. etc etc. [b]ALL OF WHICH APPLIES TO THE PETERSON STROBOSTOMP[/b] If accuracy and compensating tunings is what you want (as per the original posting) then go for the turbo thingamy jig (apparently more accurate than a Peterson), but in most cases a much cheaper device will be perfectly adequate."[/i] AYE..IF YOU HAVE DEFICIENT TONAL HEARING DISABILITY. [b][i]"go for the turbo thingamy jig"[/i] Great advice.but the Peterson still has more advantageous features.......[/b] [b]It would be great, instead of hearing from people with unproved theories but with a great propensity for ridicule, to read experiences from people who actually own a Peterson strobe tuner[/b].

[quote name='Greene-Mann' post='496676' date='May 24 2009, 04:54 PM']dont mean too much harm by this but has rslaing got petersons website set as his homepage; or tucked away in a "special" folder so the mrs cant see haha![/quote] The reason I am so appreciative of the Strobe is that for years, in spite of seemingly perfect intonation (I play 6 string basses so it probably matters more than for a 4 stringer) there were specific notes which were not in tune, and although I don't have perfect pitch, I started avoiding those fretpoints. Especially if playing solo and playing chords and or chord/melody above 12th fret. The Peterson and Feiten system has solved it for me. Once again, my input here is because of the title of the thread - Most Accurate Tuner. And is spite of the various comments levied, and attempts to take the piss, I have stayed on topic. There are some pretty "nasty" people on here, and really I don't want to be associated with negatives, or be drawn in to any situaton where I have to defend myself on a personal level. Especially when I know that some of the stuff has helped some people, along with the thousands of pounds I have spent buying stuff. So basically- f*** this for a lark. So this is probably my last post. Anyone who wants any help with theory etc, please feel free to continue to email me directly

[quote name='dlloyd' post='496654' date='May 24 2009, 04:06 PM']No it doesn't. It can adjust the tuning of every single note on a given string so that a single note will be more in tune with the key you are playing in. The only application for this is if you are consistently playing one specific interval on a given string. Great if you're playing simple guitar chords, but not much use for a bass player.* *I'm certainly willing to be corrected on this.[/quote] OK. From the Peterson site, which explains why tuning is a compromise to obtain more pleasing aural results. And this is why in conjunction with either a compensated nut or the Feiten system, a strobe which basically makes your instrument out of tune "technically" can obtain far superior AND MORE ACCURATE results than a cheap reference type of tuner. Please remember that the strobe tuners are NOT ordinary tuners, they have the capability of allowing for offsets automatically, are very accurate thereby overcoming the problems with even tempered tuning. They are so precise that because each instrument, even of the same brand, can vary in their capacity to be tuned properly, the user can adapt the strobe tuner to match the instrument and obtain the best possible tuning ALL OVER THE INSTRUMENTS FRETBOARD. [i]It is perhaps a cruel joke on all of us to be given such remarkable sensitivity in judging musical pitch intervals between simultaneous sounds. The mathematics of positioning (tempering) 12 scale notes in an octave prevents any more than a handful of perfectly harmonious chords for any one tuning of those notes (temperament). We have limited options: 1. We can equally space the 12 notes in the octaves so that chords of each given type (major, minor, b5#7-9, etc.) sound equally good in all keys. This is called equal temperament, the common "standard" in modern music. Unfortunately, this temperament scheme also guarantees that all chords of a given type sound equally bad! Not even one chord will have intervals that sound exactly in tune! 2. We can purposely shift certain scale notes closer to or farther from their neighbors to make perfect intervals or chords in some places. If we choose wisely, we can make the most important chords in a given key be the perfect ones. This is the concept behind Just Intonation (JST in the Temperament Menu of Peterson tuners). In the key of C, the chords of C major, F major, and G major can each have perfectly harmonious tuning intervals. Unfortunately, other chords, especially those in more remote keys like C# and F#, sound much worse than they would in equal temperament. If an instrument like a piano is tuned in Just Major temperament for the key of C, notes and chords that fall in the C Major scale sound wonderful. Modulating to the key of G, most chords sound good, some not quite as good. If one takes a more adventurous trek into the key of E, say, some real "ear-sores" start to develop in certain chords and intervals. Historically, the clinkers are dubbed "wolf tones" which gives some indication of their "charm". 3. Between the extremes given above, there are countless compromises. Why not settle for some nearly perfect chords in the most popular key signatures, while keeping the "wolves" at bay in the less traveled ones? There are about as many such "well tempered" scales as there have been minds conceiving of them. Every temperament generally takes the name of its earliest inventor or biggest proponent. Some of the more successful ones, like Werkmeister (WRK), Young (YNG), Kirnberger (KRN), and Kellner (KLN), are included in current models of Peterson tuners. Besides stock historic temperaments, Peterson Virtual Strobe™ Tuners also feature unique instrument-specific temperaments such as GTR™ for guitar, BAS for bass, and (VS-II/V-SAM™ only) E9 & C6 tempered tuning for pedal steel guitar. The VS-S StroboStomp™ pedal tuner/DI also features four optimized Buzz Feiten Tuning System® presets for electric guitar, acoustic guitar, bass guitar and 12-string guitar. All Peterson tuners (except the VS-1) are user- programmable, allowing the saving of up to 244 user temperaments to memory. The V-SAM allows you to adjust any temperament to any one of 12 roots, making these temperaments available in any specific key. [/i] [b]Also reasons why other tuners are not as accurate[/b] If I remember, the thread was about THE MOST ACCURATE tuners [i]Because other tuner manufacturers have decided that their idea of "close" is good enough for you. Only Peterson's stroboscopic mechanical and Virtual Strobe™ displays can get close enough to show your instrument's pitch properly and consistently on a high definition display. A tuner can only be accurate if its display is accurate. This may sound obvious, but can a tuner really be accurate if it only has a simple green light to indicate "in tune"? Can it tell you accurately how out-of-tune you are? Can it display with equal accuracy over the entire range? Unless it has a high-definition display, the answer is of course, NO! LED and needle-type displays are very basic and are not capable of displaying exact pitch. For example, some tuners use LED displays but never use more than twenty lights to represent 100 cents (the span of one equally-tempered semitone, or one "half-step"). This forces them to compromise or simplify the readout. This also applies to tuners with a so-called "strobe mode". Similarly, needle tuners have a limited number of reference points across the dial (about a dozen) which has the same effect. If you hold a switched off "LCD/needle" meter at a slant, you will see these reference points already mapped out! Imagine a tape measure which does not show subdivisions under 1 foot. That's fine if you only want to measure the proverbial "broad side of a barn", but it's not much use in custom-fitting cabinets in your kitchen. A Peterson Strobe can accurately display any tone within its range to within 1/1000th of a semitone. If this sounds like overkill, listen for yourself. The difference will astound you! This level of accuracy is also what allows us to offer you Sweetened Tunings™ specifically for your instrument. [/i]

[quote name='Clive Thorne' post='496599' date='May 24 2009, 01:58 PM']Haven't read the whole thread, but +1 to the idea that however well you tune it, 1/10th or 1/100th of a cent, whatever, the moment you play a real note it will be out of tune by that amount. Plucking it hard will make it sharp Any temperature change will make it go up or down Fretting a note slightly harder than usual will make it go sharp Fretting a note other than directly downwards will make it go sharp Fretting two notes together might make it go flat (extra load on the neck) Iintonation setting is only going to be accurate at the points you actually set it, be it the 12th, 19th fret or what ever. etc etc And that's before we've even started on the fretless ... or non equal temperament tunings on a fretted. ... or relief in the neck etc Highly accurate and great bits of kit some of these tuners might be, but surely, to a large extent, thay are a solution without a problem![/quote] You should have read the previous posts. The Peterson combats a lot of the points you have made, including problems with equal temperament on fretted instruments. The others points you have made are down to bad technique - so I suppose a Strobe tuner will definitely not help with that. A lot of the criticism here is coming from people who haven't got a strobe tuner, so logically their comments can be disregarded. They also haven't got a clue about the various benefits as they assume it is just a more accurate tuner - it isn't. It actually adjusts the tuning of the guitar (basically making it "out of tune" with itself) but making it more in tune aurally. But I can see there is no point in attempting to explain this judging by the reactions of the tone deaf amongst us. I suggest people try one (it takes a few weeks to get the old tuner mentality out of the way, and actually learn how to use the strobe to it's greatest efect) and then give a more accurate appraisal instead of just giving reasons why they "think/assume" a cheapo pile of crap tuner could do the same job.

Here we go again - the naughty boys at the back of the classroom are devaluing the thread and way off topic again. In case you forgot, the topic is [b]THE MOST ACCURATE TUNER[/b], which appears to be the ST 200 or the Peterson. There have been a significant number of posts that have not even touched the thread title. I should have known better than to attempt to add what I consider is useful info where there are a number of individuals who don't contribute anything that may be either relevant or helpful. I think one person gave some useful advice to one of my comments - which was it's futile to even attempt to reason with the negative influences in the forum. However, (dinosaurs apart - who know doubt would have questioned the importance of the wheel were they around at the time it was invented) , I would like to thank those who have told me that at least some of the info was helpful to them.

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' post='496034' date='May 23 2009, 02:08 PM']Buzz Feiten?! But I know what you mean! Similarly, there's hardly been a big rush to adopt compensated nuts (As now used by Musicman). Tuning? Too.. Many... Variables! Not least; Temperature Humidity String condition Integrity of tuners (on the bass) Solidity of the bridge Fret condition I use a DTR1000. Seems to work okay. I've Heard of Peterson, but have never seen one. I wouldn't know where to get one, either! Don't say "Off the 'net". I'm sick of various delivery services destroying my goods / never receiving them / getting them 6 months later.[/quote] Yes, the Feiten system has broadly the same effect as the compensated nut system. Feiten invented it, (he is himself a first class session guitarist and artist - his earlier albums included players the likes of Randy Brecker, Airto Moreira, Ray Baretto, Dave Holland, ), and the others followed, with some manufacturers now using the product at build stage. Washburn being the most recent. In spite of your claim [i]"Similarly, there's hardly been a big rush to adopt compensated nuts" [/i] , this is quite simply not true. There are huge numbers of pro musicians who have it on their instruments, and you can find out who simply by googling Buzz Feiten, or having a word with any of the qualified Feiten installers. It really does make a huge difference to fretted instruments. [url="http://www.buzzfeiten.com/artists/featuredartists.htm"]Some session players and their thoughts on the Feiten system[/url] In spite of your list of contributing factors to tuning problems, it really is a musicians prime responsibility to ensure that he is in tune, and his instrument does not have the problems (including mechanical) that detract from the job in hand. Or you will indeed have tuning problems. Of course - it doesn't matter if you aren't or can't be bothered.

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='495984' date='May 23 2009, 12:42 PM']So flog me or send the police. There is no point in having the most accurate note tuner if the whole instrument, as a musical instrument cannot cope. You can Strobe tune all you want, ultimately all you are ever doing is identifying a start point to which the rest of the instrument needs to be referenced to.[/quote] Wrong...............and I can't even be bothered to explain why. It's all in my previous posts about how the Peterson compensates for the failings in the even temperament method on fretted instruments..ZZZZzzzzzzz.............

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='495916' date='May 23 2009, 11:23 AM']I agree with lots of people on here. I'd just rather question marketing literature than take it at face value. It's unfortunate (for you) that you don't enjoy any non-orchestral music prior to the invention of overpriced tuners. There's some pretty good stuff out there.[/quote] It isn't marketing material in the normal sense of it being hype - what they say is factual and true, I know 'cos I have one. Don't misquote me please - I did not say I don't enjoy music prior to invention of tuners. I just don't listen to out of tune sh*te that a 3 year old could play, because normally it does not have any appeal. I was brought up by a jazz playing parent, my youth was spent listening and watching the likes of Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Jethro Tull and the crap commercial stuff around at that time and unfortunately punk. I just don't listen to stuff now that offends my ears. I would not have believed 40 years ago that my musical taste would change to appreciate the stuff I do now, which is MAINLY modern jazz and modern classical. And I think it is due to my intensive study of the art of music of all genres over the last 45 years. But it has and will no doubt will develop in the future. As will yours. [quote]What is the point of tuning an instrument to such a precise degree that the second you step into the next (warmer) room or start playing anything, the tuning changes anyway? I suppose prior to playing you can claim to have the most scientifically in-tune instrument in your post code (if that's your thing)?[/quote] I rarely use a strobe tuner in a live situation. They are essential in a studio or when setting up an instrument. Reading what I said originally would have saved you (and me) having to answer this again. [quote]This is not a facetious question, but do you think you could tell the difference in a band situation? Maybe you can, I believe the majority couldn't. Maybe you couldn't?[/quote] Yes I can. And so can a lot of musicians and non - musicians. [quote]As for the ridiculing, belittling and trolling thing, I won't have a go at you for the accusation as I know you don't mean it. I could accuse you of making a personal attack (which I know is something you hate), but again, I know it's in jest, so I still love you as a bass playing brother.[/quote] I'm sure...............

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='495901' date='May 23 2009, 11:13 AM']Hehe. This is funny. Nobody has grasped that the biggest advantage about a Peterson tuner is the Sweetened tuning mode... Which actually puts your bass out of tune... But in a good way![/quote] Because they didn't read my post and instead adopted the usual " I don't agree/understand so let's attack instead with some unsubstantiated pre-dinosaur theories" Oh, the fun of Basschat.............

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='495890' date='May 23 2009, 11:01 AM']Frankly, it is probably more possible to play more in tune with a washtub or tea chest bass with one stick and one string than on a Fodera fretted bass, i.e if you have a good ear. An electronic tuner only contributes a point of reference as far as common well tempered fretted stringed instruments are concerned - a tuning fork or pitch pipe will can also provide the same function of a reference point. Beyond that, it's set up and then touch and ear.[/quote] Remember, the topic is all about "The most accurate tuner" A Peterson Strobe tuner has settings which have been developed to combat the problems with fretted instruments. It does not have purely "reference" points. It compensates for the overtone system in the harmonic series too. (If you want it to) Allied to the Buzz Feiten system, players of fretted instruments can now have a perfectly tuned instrument which has not been possible until recently because of this technology. And that menas having an instrument which is perfectly in tune AURALLY, not mathematically.

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='495882' date='May 23 2009, 10:52 AM']I haven't read your posts after this one as they look pretty boring, but my point is you're playing a bass (probably) made of wood, in a hot room, your left hand and arm is putting weight on the neck, you've got a noisy drummer, sh*t PA, 2 guitarists who are using different/cheaper/better tuners, and your banging your headstock against the drummers crash. No doubt a 200quid tuner is scientifically more precise, but these other factors negate the difference. What did bass players do before these 200 quid tuners? Do all those early recordings make your ears bleed? Can you not listen to anything prior to 1997? Your comment about my "premise" and playing tea chest basses would indicate that you're the one with the inability to have a "rationalised totally logical debate". I could set my watch to an atomic clock. Very accurate. Would it make a blind bit of difference in real life? Would it f***. Thanks.[/quote] You are welcome. And thanks for the totally expected response that has contributed magnificently to the topic. And to cordially respond to your points. I do listen to music pre-1997, some of the material I like was recorded in the 1930's. I prefer classical stuff which if the orchestra adopted your theories, would make things very interesting. [i]"What did bass players do before these 200 quid tuners? Do all those early recordings make your ears bleed?"[/i] Yes they do make my ears bleed, which is why I don't listen to them. And your question regarding what bass players did before great tuners were invented? If you bothered to read my boring posts that you attempted to ridicule, you would see that I made the point that strobe tuners are not that much help unless the whole band uses them. The main purpose for them IMO is to be used on setting up an instrument so that it plays and sounds as good as it possibly can. I agree, if your description above is the type of "music" you enjoy, that precision tuning is not important. But the again, you don't agree with most of what anyone says on here unless it appears, it is with the intent to ridicule or belittle. I don't have a problem with that, keep on trolling...................it's amusing.

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='495856' date='May 23 2009, 10:28 AM'][b][i][size=2]"Preset temperaments are averaged to common set ups"[size=3][/size].[/size] [/i][/b] For an electric guitar or bass, or other stringed instrument, the action, the gauge of the strings and the player's attack are also important components to a musical consequence. SRV's strat was unplayable to most other players because of his set up, and the oft- quoted remark "it's in the fingers' is true as many players touch and ears work together towards musical consequence, as opposed to being mathematically tempered in tune.[/quote] "Preset temperaments are averaged to common set ups" Correct, and that is why the Peterson Strobe tuner is invaluable as it has several preset temperaments and "sweeteners" which means that is alliance with e.g. the Buzz Feiten system, you will end up with a perfectly in tune guitar (to the ear, which is the most important point) as it compensates for the common problems with fretted instruments. Your point also illustrates why a guitar should only be tuned by the person playing it.............

[quote name='pantherairsoft' post='495844' date='May 23 2009, 10:14 AM']But not until I play with a guitarist who cares about his sound as much as I care about mine...[/quote] Maybe they don't have the same sense of hearing as us humans? Alternatively, you could always start a crusade that all GUITARISTS should own a strobe tuner. I have seen and heard some bands recently where the out-of-tuneness has really spoiled a ggod set. And it is normally when the guitarist is playing chords higher up the neck after he has tuned his guitar to open strings or using 5th and 7th fret harmonics (which is definitely NOT the way to do it, have a look at the link below) [url="http://hubpages.com/hub/Equal-Temperament-Guitar-Tuning"]The best way to tune a guitar[/url] ALso useful info for Bass Players. Print this off and give it to your guitarist (as if he cares...........) [i]Equal Temperament for Guitarists Guitarists, more than any other instrumentalists, need to understand Equal Temperament, or at least the basis of it. Why? Because their instrument is fretted for Equal Temperament and the strings have to be tuned accordingly. Pianists don't need to worry about it because, although their instruments are tuned to Equal Temperament, the tuning is left to a professional Piano Tuner. Tuning by Harmonics Beginners usually do not know the technique of playing harmonics, but more advanced players should. Many are then lured by the idea of using the harmonics available on the 5th and 7th frets to tune their guitars. This inevitably results in a badly tuned instrument. I'll explain why later. Tuning by Beats Two notes, sounded together, form an 'interval'. Slight detuning of the interval results in audible 'beats', or a pulsating sound. Guitarists often try to eliminate all such beats, e.g. by playing a full chord of E then adjusting the 3rd string. But making one chord 'perfect' will only make other chords worse. In Equal Temperament, the only intervals that do not beat are the unison and the octave. Eliminating beats from any other interval is a big mistake, also to be explained later. More about Beats Unfortunately, there is another source of beats, even in a perfectly tuned unison. For example, an A on 6th string 5th fret might be in perfect unison with the open A on 5th string, yet still produce audible beats. The reason is that the strings are not fully independent, being coupled by the vibrating bridge (and to a lesser extent by the airborne sound wave). Vibrational energy is passed back and forward between the two strings. This exchange between the strings is the cause of the audible beats. Their character is different from detuning beats but it takes some experience to hear the distinction. To the physicist, it is an example of 'coupled harmonic oscillators'. The effect is far less obvious in solid electric guitars where the bridge does not vibrate. Testing the Instrument Guitarists sometimes complain that their instrument is impossible to tune correctly. Apart from cheap 'souvenir' guitars brought home from the Costa Brava, this is actually pretty rare. It takes a highly skilled luthier to make a truly fine guitar, but even the least competent should manage to get the basic dimensions correct. Far more likely is that the strings, not the guitar, are at fault. Check each string in turn by comparing the 12th fret harmonic with the 12th fret stopped note. They should be exactly the same. Very slight random variations are normal, but if every stopped string is equally sharp (or flat), you may indeed have an ill-made instrument. (But also check your stopping technique - you may be pressing too hard or at an angle to the fretboard). If the stopped notes are unacceptably different from the harmonics, buy some new strings. Good quality strings start life with a constant linear density (mass per unit length), but the effects of corrosion from left hand finger acids and wear from right hand plucking eventually causes unevenness along the length of the string. The 12th fret harmonic will always be correct, but the stopped note can be well out. Equal Temperament Equal Temperament is a musical tuning system that divides the Octave into 12 geometrically equal steps. Each step is one semitone. When moving up one step, the frequency (or pitch) increases by 2^(1/12). Using this system, the Octave (12 semitones) is perfect, because 2^(12/12) = 2^1 = 2, an exact doubling of frequency. But the Fifth (seven semitones) is 2^(7/12) = 1.498 times the root. A perfect fifth, on the other hand is exactly 1.5 times. The difference is small, but it is significant. If you want to hear this, play the 6th string 7th fret harmonic. Now stop the string at the 7th fret and play the assisted harmonic at the 19th fret (effectively the new 12th fret). This note will sound very slightly flatter than the 7th fret harmonic. In Equal Temperament tuning, the slightly flat note is the correct pitch. A common reaction is that Equal Temperament must be 'wrong'. Surely it's better to use perfect intervals instead? •The theoretical problem with this is that you are then restricted to very simple music that remains mostly in one key. If you progress through the 'cycle of fifths' (C, G, D, A, etc) by perfect intervals, when you finally get back to C (after 12 steps) you'll find that it's a very different C from the one you started on! However, by slightly flattening each fifth, after 12 steps you'll arrive back exactly where you started. Thus Equal Temperament slightly compromises every interval (except unison and octave) so that all keys are equally acceptable. This brilliant invention is what made Western music so harmonically rich and varied. •The practical problem, for a guitarist, is that your instrument has a fretboard layout mathematicallly designed for Equal Temperament. Unless your open strings are correctly tuned, all your 'cross-string' intervals become arbitrary. The Wrong Way Now we can explain why 7th fret harmonics should not be used to tune the guitar. Suppose you tune string 6 to a reference. If you then tune string 5 to string 6 by exactly matching the harmonics at the 5th and 7th frets, your 5th string ends up very slightly flat. You can then compound this error by tuning the 4th to the 5th in the same way, then the 3rd to the 4th. Progressively, each string gets slightly flatter. Finally, you can tune the open 2nd and 1st strings to the 7th fret harmonics on the 6th and 5th strings respectively, resulting in slightly sharp 2nd and 1st strings. The resulting mess sounds extremely unpleasant, especially intervals that use the very flat 3rd string with the sharp 2nd string. (The first position C major chord is particularly distasteful!) Many people 'tune' by harmonics in this way, convinced it's the 'correct' method, then make ad hoc adjustments (usually to the 2nd & 3rd strings) to try to salvage the result. This is doomed to failure. The fact is, your instrument is built for equal temperament (by virtue of the mathematical positioning of the frets) and the strings have to be tuned accordingly. With a guitar, you can't opt out of equal temperament. If you want to employ 'Just Intonation' or 'Meantone Intonation' you need to take up the cello or violin instead. The Right Way There are many equally good ways to tune a guitar, but they are all share a few do's & dont's: •Don't ever use 7th fret harmonics when tuning •Don't expect to eliminate all beats •Do tune by unisons and/or octaves Both of the following methods are good: 1. The Master A-String •Use a concert A tuning fork to tune the 5th string to A. You may use the 5th or 12th fret harmonics if you like, as octaves (and double octaves) are perfect. When the 5th string is tuned, don't alter it again! •Play the 7th fret E on the 5th string (the stopped note, not the harmonic!!) •Tune the open 6th string to this note (one octave down). If you prefer, you can use the 12th fret harmonic for unison tuning. •Again play the 7th fret E on the 5th string •Tune the open 1st string to this note (one octave up). If you prefer, you can use the 19th fret assisted harmonic on Master String 5 for unison tuning. •Play the 5th fret D on the 5th string •Tune the open 4th string to this note (by unison) •Play the 2nd fret B on the 5th string •Tune the open 2nd string to this note (one octave up). If you prefer, you can use the 14th fret assisted harmonic on Master String 5 for unison tuning. •Play the 10th fret G on the 5th string •Tune the open 3rd string to this note (by unison) The advantage of this method is that any slight detuning tendency is not passed cumulatively from string to string, as every string is tuned directly to the Master String. However, you should only use this method if your 5th string passed the 12th fret harmonic test described above. If your 4th or 6th string is more accurate, the method can easily be adapted, but as concert A tuning forks are the most readily available, the A-string is best. [/i]

[i][quote name='synaesthesia' post='495818' date='May 23 2009, 09:42 AM']The obsession with tuning accuracy is overvalued in this context. The answer is always moot if it is a fretted stringed instrument that is tuned to tempered scales. You can tune a single fretted note with average plucking intensity as accurately as you want, but the instrument will be out of perfect tuning to some degree elsewhere on a fretted instrument, and hard attack on the string will result in a momentary sharp note. The accuracy of tuning on a fretted instrument also depends on the action, and the bow of the neck. The ear can accept some 'give' in musical contexts, which is why chorusing is popular and can sound 'rich'...and which is why the most common electric guitar, the stratocaster, where perfect tuning is further compromised by spring loading the tailpiece, is never in perfect tuning anyway.[/quote][/i] You are spot on with this. But if you read the answer as to why precise tuning is important to the ear, and I don't mean "exact" tuning in the sense of A5 having to be twice the hz of A4, (which is what a bog standard tuner will do) the Peterson explanation in my previous post explains why, and backs up what you are saying in a more detailed way.

And maybe this will help explain a few things too [url="http://www.buzzfeiten.com/howitworks/howitworks.htm"]Feiten Tuning System[/url]

[quote name='pantherairsoft' post='495801' date='May 23 2009, 09:18 AM']I have read this thread with a smile on my face... I guess its much like 'How many Ohms should my cabinet have compared to my head'... if it sounds right, it is right. I actually have the pleasure of using a Peterson Tuner (not sure of the model) yesterday, and I have to agree they are an absolutely fantastic bit of kit. No doubt about it. I usually use a TU-2, always have. So I tuned with the TU-2 and then ran the bass through the Peterson to see how out the tuning was... and the answer... Not at all. The TU-2 tuned me to absolutely spot on... sure there were tiny tiny variations, granted, ones that only the Peterson would detect, but sooooooo minor I doubt many human ears would pick it up. All in all, I would love a Peterson as owning Gucci kit thats not going to fail you is cool. But as my hands on experience shows that my over gigged TU-2 is just as accurate (almost) then I'm happy with what I have. If someone wants to donate a Peterson to me though... I won't say no! :-)[/quote] Some good points. But might I suggest that [i]"'How many Ohms should my cabinet have compared to my head'... if it sounds right, it is right."[/i] be re-thought? Of course, any tuner will give a decent result. But not any tuner will give you the benefits of a strobe type tuner. The Peterson has the distinct advantage of many different temperaments which make a huge difference. But the point of a tuner is not just so when you are at a gig you can tune your 4,5 or 6 stringer to about the same pitch as the rest of the band. Any old tuner will help you to do that. If you can be arsed, and you want to have a great sounding instrument, you just can't do it with a bog standard tuner. [b]AND HERE IS WHY[/b] ( A bit long winded, and I accept that it won't change the minds of the dinosaurs - but might be of help to people that are interested as part of their musicianship. From Peterson site: [i] [b] Is 1/10th Cent Accuracy Really Needed? [/b] So, you don't believe our analogy? Then, let's get technical. Play two pure sine wave tones together, one at 440 Hz (440 cycles per second), one at 441 Hz. The clash you will hear is the one sound beating against (alternately reinforcing and canceling) the other. The repetition of this beating occurs at the difference in frequency of the original tones (441 - 440), which is 1.0 Hz or once every second. This level of out-of-tuneness is already plenty noticeable, but we don't want to be accused of stacking the deck in our favor, so let's use these numbers. How does this relate to cents scaling? Actually it is a little complicated because the cents difference of the tones depends not only on the difference in frequency but on the size of the frequencies themselves. For this example, at 440 Hz, the cents difference is about 3.9 cents. So, any tuner that can get you 4 cent (actually ±2 cent) accuracy should be fine, right? Well there's more to it. First, even though almost any tuner these days can have an internal accuracy at this level or greater, what is important to you is the accuracy you can reliably and quickly see on the display. Other tuning display systems generally do not give good results-or usually any results-within about ±3 cents. But there is still more! Remember, cents scaling changes with the size of the frequencies themselves. If you are so picky that you need your High A (at 880 Hz) to be in tune with everything else (good musicians are funny that way!), any beat frequencies produced must still be below the 1 Hz-once a second-level. This already requires twice the cent accuracy as before or ±1 cents!! Will it ever end? Not just yet!! We don't generally spend our time listening to laboratory-perfect sine waves (well, we have to sometimes, but we don't recommend it). Real musical tones include a unique and often extended series of overtones (additional sine waves at multiples of the pitch frequency) that gives each sound its timbre or character. Even a flute, which is considered to be relatively pure, has five or more overtones which are significant enough that, if any were to be artificially removed, would leave the tone noticeably wanting. In instruments ranging from guitar-especially with even a touch of over-drive distortion-to woodwinds and brass, overtones at 10 or 15 times the pitch frequency can be significant. This has a huge impact on the human ability to detect tuning. To take an easy example, an electric guitar string usually has plenty of power in its fourth overtone (and beyond). In our previous example, tuning two strings-one at 440 Hz, one at 441 Hz would sound much worse than the sine wave case. This is because the audible overtones also beat and the frequency of these beats increase along with the frequencies of the overtones. To take a conservative example, the 4th overtone of the 440 Hz tone would be at approximately 2200 Hz and that of the 441 Hz tone would be at 2205 Hz. This makes a beat frequency of 5 Hz or 5 times a second: HORRID! To make these tones sound even reasonably good together, we should make sure that these overtones beat at less than the original "once every second". This will require the fundamental pitches to be tuned to 440 and 440.2 Hz. What's the cents accuracy required now? It's 0.78 cents or ±0.39 cents! And what about the fact that the 1 Hz beat level that we used in the calculations is really much worse than what anyone with fleshy ears (as opposed to the tin type) would consider to be "in tune"? And what about accounting for even higher overtones? And playing higher notes? And the fact that your tuning will drift with the pressure changes of your thumb in different guitar chord positions or the warmth of your breath into your horn as you play? At least if you start at "real" 0.1 cent accuracy, you will be able to maintain satisfactory tuning through a few songs! 1. We can equally space the 12 notes in the octaves so that chords of each given type (major, minor, b5#7-9, etc.) sound equally good in all keys. This is called equal temperament, the common "standard" in modern music. Unfortunately, this temperament scheme also guarantees that all chords of a given type sound equally bad! Not even one chord will have intervals that sound exactly in tune! 2. We can purposely shift certain scale notes closer to or farther from their neighbors to make perfect intervals or chords in some places. If we choose wisely, we can make the most important chords in a given key be the perfect ones. This is the concept behind Just Intonation (JST in the Temperament Menu of Peterson tuners). In the key of C, the chords of C major, F major, and G major can each have perfectly harmonious tuning intervals. Unfortunately, other chords, especially those in more remote keys like C# and F#, sound much worse than they would in equal temperament. If an instrument like a piano is tuned in Just Major temperament for the key of C, notes and chords that fall in the C Major scale sound wonderful. Modulating to the key of G, most chords sound good, some not quite as good. If one takes a more adventurous trek into the key of E, say, some real "ear-sores" start to develop in certain chords and intervals. Historically, the clinkers are dubbed "wolf tones" which gives some indication of their "charm". 3. Between the extremes given above, there are countless compromises. Why not settle for some nearly perfect chords in the most popular key signatures, while keeping the "wolves" at bay in the less traveled ones? There are about as many such "well tempered" scales as there have been minds conceiving of them. Every temperament generally takes the name of its earliest inventor or biggest proponent. Some of the more successful ones, like Werkmeister (WRK), Young (YNG), Kirnberger (KRN), and Kellner (KLN), are included in current models of Peterson tuners. Besides stock historic temperaments, Peterson Virtual Strobe™ Tuners also feature unique instrument-specific temperaments such as GTR™ for guitar, BAS for bass, and (VS-II/V-SAM™ only) E9 & C6 tempered tuning for pedal steel guitar. The VS-S StroboStomp™ pedal tuner/DI also features four optimized Buzz Feiten Tuning System® presets for electric guitar, acoustic guitar, bass guitar and 12-string guitar. All Peterson tuners (except the VS-1) are user- programmable, allowing the saving of up to 244 user temperaments to memory. The V-SAM allows you to adjust any temperament to any one of 12 roots, making these temperaments available in any specific key. [/i]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='495668' date='May 23 2009, 12:03 AM']Anyway, Peterson reign supreme... but give these a look in... [url="http://www.turbo-tuner.com/"]http://www.turbo-tuner.com/[/url][/quote] I think these came out after I bought my Peterson Strobe. And for around £100 and transportability, I will be ordering one today. Thanks for the intro......................

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='495719' date='May 23 2009, 01:30 AM']It's a f***ing tuner! Pay a tenner max. No one notices when you're playing live. Guitars maybe, bass never.[/quote] Despair now quickly setting in, and time to leave the thread before it degenerates in to the normal b.b.c rationalised totally logical debate (not). On the premise of "It's a f***ing tuner!" and no one notices if you are not in tune, especially if it is a bass - let's all get rid of all of our gear, and play tea-chests with broom handles and a bit of string. FFS - I have seen some deliberately provocative comments from "people" in here, but that one is the best.

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='495667' date='May 23 2009, 12:01 AM']There's no point arguing, even when black is black, there is always somebody on here that reckons it's white.[/quote] You are absolutely correct. I give in.

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='495659' date='May 22 2009, 11:38 PM']I use a Korg DTR-1000, seriously accurate and very fast tracking.[/quote] I have one of those too, but they really are miles behind the Petersons.

[quote name='mcc' post='495660' date='May 22 2009, 11:38 PM']how about your ears ???? those come free .... also guitars have a terrible tendency to go out of tune anyway.... I wouldn't blame the tuner but the guitarist.[/quote] Ears are great, mainly for detecting when instruments are not in tune. But when you want to be perfectly in tune, use a Peterson - no argument. They are the best, ask any pro. And have it confirmed by any expert that you take your guitar to when you want a professional setup.

[quote name='bassman2790' post='495639' date='May 22 2009, 11:08 PM'] One could hardly describe the Peterson tuners as 'affordable' no matter how accurate they were. For that price, I'd want it to tune the bass for me and bring me a beer between sets.[/quote] Maybe if you drink enough beer between sets, your tuning wouldn't be important? (At least to you)