rslaing

[quote name='Eight' post='479194' date='May 4 2009, 06:23 PM']Is there anyone over the age of five still participating in this thread?[/quote] Well said......................maybe it should be relisted as the kindergarten. Pathetic attempts at puerile humour do not qualify as logical alternative argument. And I am still to be convinced that not being able to read music is an advantage. Especially with the latest contributions to this thread. As for the Ray Charles/Stevie Wonder point - both of them created a lot of great POP songs,(neither are virtuosos on their instruments, but Stevie Wonder is a great POP song writer) but their songs had to be transcribed and arranged by players who could read and write music so they could be played by people (who could read music) on their instruments and subsequently be recorded. If anyone has seen the DVD of the recording of Songs In The Key of Life, you would have seen that. Using musicians that can read and write music saves a lot of time, and also MONEY, for the people that hire backing musicians. So who do you think they are going to call? I also suggest that if you want to listen to an alternative and brilliant interpretation of some of Ray Charles stuff, you listen to Jon Scofield playing his own interpretation of Ray Charles songs on "John Scofield - That's What I Say - John Scofield Plays the Music of Ray Charles (2005)" Betas the pants off the cornball originals. And if you don't have the talent (as I don't, and never will) to be able to create songs that result in million dollar selling album, but want to make a living out of music, then get educated. All of the big "stars" in most genres use musicians that have come through Berklee and similar, and can quickly apply their abilities to the job in question. I reiterate, being able to read music is an ADVANTAGE, and all musicians should be able to do it to a reasonable degree. Not being able to read music is NOT an advantage. Work it out...................learn to read music, then use it if needed. But stop being so prejudiced against people who can do something that you can't be arsed about.

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478591' date='May 3 2009, 09:50 PM']I PM'd that post to Jake 10 minutes ago and he nicked it off me.[/quote]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478586' date='May 3 2009, 09:44 PM']my dad could have your dad.[/quote] Probably, but only if he had a shovel and knew where his grave is.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='478575' date='May 3 2009, 09:36 PM']Man, I [i]wish[/i] you didn't give a toss what we think of you. Maybe you'd have actually flounced out when you said you were going to.[/quote] A witty reply will do..don't lower the tone by getting personal please

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478567' date='May 3 2009, 09:33 PM']But in my case, that really is true! I'm dreadful![/quote] That's great, and you are such happy well balanced chappy too...I just love your humorous posts on here, I think you should be president of the basschat forum, with an override on the mods decisions. That would make this place much more interesting. I am being serious............

[quote name='maxrossell' post='478555' date='May 3 2009, 09:25 PM']I give up. For someone who reckons he's so clever, you're spectacularly obtuse. Not that my point needs making any more clearly. You're on your own here, pal. Well, you and the rest of the guys down at the REAL Musicians' club. [/quote] Thanks for the compliment (or have I read that incorrectly.........like I give a toss )

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478551' date='May 3 2009, 09:17 PM']Either people who make crap music are drawn to learning to read, or people who learn to read make crap music. Not sure which is true, but one of them definitely is. Or maybe its both? Whatever. Bilbo used to be a right stud, leather trousers, long hair, thrusting groin, mother and daughter 3-somes. Learnt to read, now he's stuck in deepest darkest suffolk, working for "the man" and playing music that not even his dogs want to listen too.[/quote] So the musical ability of an individual is down to your appearance? Maybe that explains why so many people on here buy and sell so much gear, the look of it improves their musical competence Seriously..........if players spent as much time practising as they did on researching equipment, they would be great musicians. Surely music is all about the notes PRODUCED by the instrument..not the other way around?

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478536' date='May 3 2009, 09:03 PM']You've been one of the most aggresive, provocative and patronising posters on this thread, and you're complaining about the non-readers??!![/quote] You mean I can't comment on something I feel strongly about? Like you never have? [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478536' date='May 3 2009, 09:03 PM']Some people read, some don't. It's a personal choice. Its not through laziness that people don't learn (well, not in every instance). To some people, the percieved rewards aren't worth the effort. If I could read, it would be a redundent skill for the musicians I play with. One day, I might learn.[/quote] Great......... [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478536' date='May 3 2009, 09:03 PM']Likewise, I maintain that the majority of music you readers churn out is crap. It's like anything. Once you start getting geeky about things, it turns crap. If you play metal and add some geekiness, what have you got? Progressive metal. Which in my book makes you worse than a sex offender. Same with films, get geeky about it and you start watching 4hr long french art-house in black and white whilst smoking cafe cremes. Football? Same again. You go from arguing about the effectiveness of Peter Crouch with your mates down the pub to memorising the 1983 Bristol Rovers Reserve Squad.[/quote] Been on the out of date Tixylix again? [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478536' date='May 3 2009, 09:03 PM']Ironside was right in regards to his comments on punk and blues. Born out of "musical ignorance". Send those same players to Berklee for three years and they'd come back playing that the type of water-boarding jazz that a lot of you pretend to like.[/quote] Not necessarily, they might just be able to extract what they have learned and add it to what they like, then become all round players....... [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='478536' date='May 3 2009, 09:03 PM']The world needs players who read, there will always be sessions to record and jingles to perform. But the world also needs the variety, quirks and f***-ups created by those who have never had a lesson in their life.[/quote] Good point.........but I can't be arsed to try and convert another non reader in to the benefits of being able to understand why it is so important to understand a least a little of music theory. So I give in...........you win.

Thanks for that, appreciated

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='478509' date='May 3 2009, 08:44 PM']A chunk of Garcia Fons' 'Sueno Vivo'. Powerful line worth working on as an exercise.[/quote] Nice one. Be careful you don't upset the non-music readers though..........then again you could add a tab

[quote name='ironside1966' post='478498' date='May 3 2009, 08:33 PM']But I agree there is nothing to be gained by not learning to read.[/quote] Thank you. My point entirely

[quote name='maxrossell' post='478477' date='May 3 2009, 08:02 PM']When you say that, do you mean you don't want to get as personally insulting as you were being when you slagged off my degree that you know sod-all about, or perhaps when you indirectly insulted me - and every other musician on this board or elsewhere who for whatever reason doesn't read music - by calling us lazy, creatively limited and whatever else you said up there? That's hilarious. You've as much as categorically stated that any musician who doesn't read music is inevitably lazy and sh*t. You expect us to believe that you're now "open" to the notion that people who don't read music might be worthy of your attention? Yeah, because that's all non-readers do, "toddle off" bass patterns and copy other people. Whereas readers, meanwhile, are indulging in a festival of unbridled creativity, correct? Dude, seriously. Do you have any idea how arrogant, condescending and close-minded you're coming across as?[/quote] Perhaps a close second to you. Sorry that I don't write what you want to read. But maybe that isn't important - as in music?

QUOTE "it sounds like your music degree has all the authenticity of a first class honours in knitting." "people that can't read music are lazy, and somewhere early on in their musical aspirations decided that they could get where they wanted to be without bothering" "I will make one further point about non reading players which I do hope will not cause you any further stress. I believe they are also limited in their creative abilities" I wonder who wrote that? I thought you were going, anyway? " Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't want to get equally personal. I really just wanted to make a valid contribution from personal experience, my points made are done so on the back of around 35 years of teaching. But you might have a point, perhaps the hundred or so pupils I have worked with are the exception........................(I doubt it) - regardless, these are just my opinions, and I suggest you don't let them affect you (as they seem to be). The facts from my experience are that the players that have attained a higher level of musicianship - have also learned to read music as well as develop their ear. But as I said, I am open to being proven wrong by other peoples experience. If someone is happy toddling along learning bass patterns "off pat" and by copying other players, thats fine too. But it is my belief that they are limiting their potential and their enjoyment of what they are doing. I just think that players can experience more and develop themselves to a higher level by learning to read and write music.

[quote name='Eight' post='478432' date='May 3 2009, 07:07 PM']You've met some arseholes. The guides for music theory and notation don't have a chapter on insulting people, I promise.[/quote] But the book for people who don't want to learn to read and write music obviously does...................

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='478420' date='May 3 2009, 06:50 PM']I think you need to read this thread again, and a similar one that went the same way a few months back.[/quote] Yep.. the thread started with "Interested to hear any opinions on preferred method of learning existing basslines. For those who play by ear, do you always know what notes you are playing on the bass by the letter or do you just work on imitation? Do you know what the notes are on each fret on all strings, or again, just work by ear? " So the people who can read music gave their 2p worth and their advice on what they think is the best way. Then the non readers jump in and assassinate. As I said, f*** it, I am out of here, it's starting to get a bit like the freemasons...................

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='478398' date='May 3 2009, 06:34 PM']Why are people missing the fundamental point here? I don't give two hoots if ANYONE learns to read dots, TAB, whatever. I'm genuinely glad for them. My musical life has been incredibly fulfilling - and at no point have I thought 'Dammit.. I wish I could read.' I just don't move in those musical circles. While people continue to insult me and accuse me of not being a REAL musician (for example - only one of many accusations levelled at me and people like me), I'm going to respond with cries of 'snobbery!'. ...especially while I've said time and time again that I have no issue with people who have chosen to read. It's just not on.[/quote] That is a perfectly reasonable and acceptable explanation of your position. As is mine, and the other responses from people who can read music. The problem with this forum (IMO) is that the subject of the threads always end up being taken personally by some people, and their responses tend to be quite hostile, and even in some cases degenerating into personal attacks on the people who have an opposing point of view. But I would not call someone a "snob" for having a contradictory point of view to mine. Anyway, f*** it.....I am out of here, I really don't know why I bother. If someone had told me that my own opinion and posts had to be acceptable to the majority, I would not have wasted my time.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='478381' date='May 3 2009, 06:17 PM']Yeah? Well, I'm sorry, but I think it's genuinely pathetic that you have to insult and belittle something you have very little knowledge and no experience of just to get your point across. There is no advantage to not knowing how to read music. I'm not claiming that there is. My point is that it doesn't [i]disadvantage[/i] people as devastatingly as you think it does. And "REAL musicians"? Seriously, get over yourself. You know how to interpret a code it would take anyone about a fortnight to learn. It doesn't make you special.[/quote] I don't think I am special. I just find it an advantage being able to read music. As I said, I know a lot of musicians who regret not learning to do it, and none who have. And most professional musicians know how to read music, and in spite of your belittling the benefits, it takes more than a fortnight to learn how to do it, otherwise I suspect you might have bothered.

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='478373' date='May 3 2009, 06:13 PM']Wow.. I'm trying to stay out of this, but that's bunkum. Sorry, man. That's reinforcing what some people have been saying about snobbery. Again, for the record, I'm not anti-reading. I've just never felt compelled to do it. I'll repeat that until I'm blue in the face.[/quote] O.K. I accept what you say. I am not against anyone NOT being able to read music either. But if being able to interpret music and play it by having the ability to read music is snobbery, than your statement means that everyone that can read music is potentially a snob? Surely it is to any musicians advantage to have the capability to read music. To argue against that is ridiculous. Sorry, but it isn't bunkum, it's a logical explanation. Again, the reason you can answer as a moderator, any posts in this forum, is because you have the ability to read and write, and therefore express yourself. Music is no different. Can you imagine how much you would miss out on in life if you couldn't read or write? Again, music is no different - but really, you have to be able to do it to know what it must be like if you couldn't. No snobbery, just a logical fact. Learn to read music - it is a distinct advantage, whether you are learning new songs or writing your own. Fact. But then again, I expect a deluge of answers from non-readers. But I am still waiting for someone to give me a reason why it is an advantage by NOT being able to read music.

[quote name='maxrossell' post='478356' date='May 3 2009, 05:41 PM']Yeah, I can see how it would appear surprising. But if you took the course you'd understand completely. It's about as far removed from an O-Level or an A-Level in music as you can get. It's really geared towards composition, sound design and production techniques, many of which throw traditional notions of "write song/play song" out of the window entirely. In fact, some of the people on the course weren't even instrumentists. The idea of requiring us to take a module in traditional notation would have been frankly bizarre.[/quote] So, to cut through all of this crap, can someone tell me the ADVANTAGES of not being able to read music? Because I can't think of any.................and it sounds like your music degree has all the authenticity of a first class honours in knitting. Sorry, but that is how it comes over. If anyone can give me an advantage to not being able to read music, then you might change my mind. Think about it, if you adopted the same attitude towards the english language (namely not being able to read it, but able to speak it) you couldn't read this or express yourself via the written word? WTF is the advantage of that? I stick to my original belief - people that can't read music are lazy, and somewhere early on in their musical aspirations decided that they could get where they wanted to be without bothering. It might work for manufactured sh*te in the music industry, but not for REAL musicians. Learn to read music. it's never too late and is an advantage to anyone in their musical career, both in interpretation and expression. You don't have to be an expert.

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='477900' date='May 2 2009, 06:47 PM']Trouble is, you study music for too long, you end up playing rubbish. Simple, melodic basslines start to bore you, you start analysing everything you play, next thing you know, you're churning out suff like Jeff Berlin. [b]Nah.....The more you study - and the more you practice, the better you play the simple stuff[/b] I always try and listen to the soundclips from various BC members, 'fraid to say (and I know you all really care what I think), the majority of you readers are playing music that only other readers and jazz perverts appreciate. Listen to WoT on the other hand, sounds great. [b] Was that before the Tixylix? Or after? Sucking up to the mods does not guarantee not getting banned[/b] Now I'm sure some of you readers could keep in simple, but it seems that you lack a bit of discipline. If any of you are either near Tonbridge or London, I charge £50 an hour. Just because you can play it, doesn't mean you have to. [b]I have heard about your £50 an hour sessions..............and apparently they aren't musical[/b] And before you all come back and say "I know exactly when to keep it simple thank you very much Mr Chief". No you don't. If you did, you wouldn't be playing all this "interesting" music which should really place you on the sex offenders register. [b]If you read my post, you will see that I do mention a very important thing about music is the space in between the notes. Which is just as well.because of the time it takes non readers to think about the next note I am thinking about asking my local MP to lobby for a "Bass offenders" register for people who buy instruments that can't read music.[/b] Well, I hope this all makes sense. I've just downed a bottle of TixyLix that I found in my cupboard. It went off in 1994 and tasted like chlorine. [b]Well then, it will have been better than the usual pint you get in your town. and will account for the unusual posting ona Saturday at this time. Hilarious as usual, thanks for the laugh [/b][/quote]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='477839' date='May 2 2009, 05:46 PM']Don't be doing that, mate. We need erudite and considered posts here to counter the general trends. I am often a minority opinion here but, as a jazzer, I know what its like to have no friends so no sweat!! [/quote] Well............ok then

[quote name='maxrossell' post='477801' date='May 2 2009, 04:53 PM']See, it's this kind of stuff I have a problem with.[/quote] I can see that. Another example of what appears to be someone justifying their decision not to learn to read music. And not accept someone elses point of view because it is contradictory. Maybe you should try to re-read the whole thing again - impartially. It is only my opinion and you should not take it personally, but it appears to have struck a raw nerve. It does not denigrate people who can't read music. My point of view was that I think a musican benefits from both, and reading music can help develop a good ear. Don't take my word for it, ask any pro musician. And then let us know the outcome. Don't let my point of view aggravate you, it's just a point of view. I can accept yours, but not when you don't appear to have read my points and not answered them in a relevant way. For example, my comment:- [b]"it seems to be the non-readers that are trying to justify their inability to interpret the written element of music" [/b]- Your response - "I'm sorry, but standard notation is not THE written element of music. It is ONE OF the written elements of music." Where did I mention standard notation? If you are talking about tab notation as an alternative (I will assume) it is a waste of time and a lazy alternative for people who don't want to learn to read music. It is actually quicker to learn to read STANDARD NOTATION than use a "join the dots" type of primitive notation. Tab notation was developed to help sell sheet music to people who couldn't read STANDARD NOTATION. Check it out. It seems to be a waste of time trying to make any point of view on here if it contradicts the majority, because as in the other responses to the people who can read music, the hostility is absurd. I note that readers with difering opinions who have contributed their 2p to this have basically given up on it. I will make one further point about non reading players which I do hope will not cause you any further stress. I believe they are also limited in their creative abilities and tend to stick to one type of music. And very opinionated they are about that too, just as I am being now - but this is my personal experience. Just because they like a certain type of music or musician, they think it is "good". There is a huge difference between something being played well by a talented musician than an average joe playing some banal 3 chord tripe (and even then, on most of the produced albums, not only do they use auto vocal tuners for the untalented/untrained vocalists, but on many occasions, studios have to hire external musicians who can actually read music for the backing tracks). The mods really should start to crack down on personal attacks on people who make opinions in a general non specific manner. I appreciate your point of view, and certainly do not take it personally. I am also certainly not elitist, just a very experienced musician of 40 years standing who really has seen it all and am expressing my viewpoint. I also listen to all types of music, but I also know the difference between a great musician, regardless of the genre of music, and someone who has lesser talent. But that doesn't mean to say I can't listen to both and appreciate differing elements of ability or the musical content. I have learned my lesson today though, I certainly won't make any more comments unless it agrees with the majority, then we can all be smug in the knowledge that we must be correct because everyone agrees with each other (at least superficially), and we don't have anyone with any individualistic responses. But then again, we can all rise up, tell them they are talking a load of sh*te and then they won't contribute any more anyway? Job well done!! EDIT: After thought:- I don't know who said it but it's true - no one can make you feel inferior without your own consent. Think about it.

One thing is for sure - the quickest way to learn a song is by being able to read music. And, by being able to read music, you will develop your ear to a better degree MORE QUICKLY, not necessarily to a higher level. A good musician will work to become proficient in both areas. In my opinion, the reason that your ear develops better by being able to read music is because you translate the dots into sounds that you can reproduce more quickly and accurately. And music as you know is mostly about sound - plus harmony, rhythm, expression, the spaces in between the sounds, and many other factors that determine the end result. The other main advantage of being able to read music is that you can develop your ear greatly by being able to sit down with a CD tune and transcribe it - many of the great creative musicians in history state that transcription skill developed their ear better than any other method. Who are we to argue? Historically most of the great musicians from different genres acquired both skills. In (for example) the modern jazz field, (which exemplifies some truly amazing skill levels aurally - even if you don't like that type of music) there were and are many musicians who were initially trained in classical music and then branched in to other areas. Once they used their reading skills to learn the "changes" and structure of a song, they then used that blueprint as a springboard to enable them to go to another level by using their aural skills. They don't actually read the music when they are in concert, it is just a means to an end. So I think it is very important that musicians have a broad spectrum of abilities - otherwise you are going to limit your potential. There are not many top musicians who can't read music. And I am not talking about the type of musician who plays something that any 6 year old could manage after 2 months tuition. The thing that surprises me in some of the comments I have read in this thread is that it seems to be the non-readers that are trying to justify their inability to interpret the written element of music. It appears that the majority of the "readers" have both skills to one degree or another and are not trying to favour one method over another. I do know however, as a bass tutor originally before my day job ate up my time and I became too old to be bothered any more, that most of my students that did not want to learn to read music did not do so for two main reasons. They either thought it had no relevance to what they wanted to play (mostly commercial or blues/metal stuff that did not necessitate any real musical skill anyway) or they were just too lazy to learn. Most of these ended up playing uncreative cliched bass lines or mechanically reproducing original bass parts in covers bands and did not develop beyond the skill level they had after 1 or two years of playing. So it really is a matter of choice, but my advice would always be that if you want a greater understanding of music and how certain sounds are created, learn to read music and study the other elements that make music the thing we all like - it is the quickest way to get you where you want to be. I have never encountered anyone who wished they had never learned to read music, but I have met lots of players who wished they had.

[quote name='silddx' post='451649' date='Apr 1 2009, 04:10 PM']Not one bid. After contacting Stuart with my Qs he told me the reserve is set at £1100 and "the Fret's (sic) are on the side". He meant the leds which are apparently yellow.[/quote] The person you emailed with your questions was probably not Zender, as it is being sold by someone else - who may not know much about basses. I imagine that if it is owned by Zender, he doesn't want to be emailed with loads of questions about things other than the bass sale. The letter of authenticity is still showing as available on the ebay ad I saw. I personally think that the price is fair for the instrument (I have a few Warwicks) , regardless of who owned it previously. I had to advertise my last Warwick ( a six string NT Thumb) a few times so perhaps you are correct, the market is slow, but on the third time, it sold within 30 minutes at the BIN of £1700. Just my 2p so no assassinations please.