rslaing

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='521425' date='Jun 23 2009, 09:00 AM']I certainly agree with this last idea. I'd be only too happy to contribute. Do you fancy starting us off ? The Major[/quote] OK. I'll have a think today and kick something off. How about Key/tonal centres and modes? Any other ideas?

I suppose you can just practice to get to the level you want. But if you practice enough to be able to play more complicated stuff, the simpler material will be easier to play. Most people don't practice much because they don't enjoy it, so they end up noodling. This results in no major improvement in their playing so they start to think that practice is a waste of time. So they stop practicing I feel the most important thing is to develop a practice routing that you like and you enjoy. Make sure when you practice it is MUSICAL. Once you have mastered something, move on to something that is more challenging. Don't practice for more than 25 minutes without taking a break for 10 minutes or so before you resume. It helps to you subconciously absorb what you have been practicing. One other thing that may lead to frustration and practice not being enjoyable: If you keep making a mistake in the same place when you are practising, it is normally because of something you are doing just prior to that error. Instead of concentrating on the error, practice the bit before your error and make adjustment until the mistake is overcome. Otherwise all you are doing is reinforcing the mistake I picked that one up from Victor Wooten who said that it was a very important factor that helps him even now when he practices. And it halves my practice time when trying to nail the difficult stuff.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='521200' date='Jun 22 2009, 09:49 PM']I don't think it should be incumbent on us all to start every topic from the bottom up to include and cater for the newbies, It's entirely legitimate for specialists to hold an advanced conversation in a forum of this sort and may well serve as a spur to the less initiated to find out what on earth is being said. If things are confusing then I'm sure they'll be left alone until such a time as they are understood. Keep it coming MM[/quote] Hear! hear!! And if people want to learn or gain a greater understanding of musical principles because of the content of "advanced conversation in a forum" then all well and good. But a word of warning MM, there are some really negative entities who will attempt to disturb your input. There is a considerable number of members who (believe it or not) poo poo the idea of theory and (god forbid) the ability to read music. Don't let them put you off, because I assure you, you will meet them fairly soon Perhaps it is time to start new thread, one that has educational and practical info that can give intermediate players advice and info that can help them advance. After all, it can only help interested people. Anyone up for it?

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='521092' date='Jun 22 2009, 08:03 PM']Rob - this "avoid notes" document is intriguing. What book is it from and by whom ?[/quote] To go a very long way around your question: I have, over the years, accumulated a vast library of stuff because apart from piano lessons and a brief time at music college (where they gave out diplomas if you just turned up), I have had to "self educate" to achieve a modicum of understanding of this wonderful thing called music. I had a great degree of difficulty getting answers to problems like "avoid" notes (a poor terminology really) and things like minor scale choices for harmony, arranging and improvisation, key centres and modal music, so when I had a few quid, I bought everything and anything I could to satisfy my thirst for knowledge. Because of copyright probs etc, I can't upload most of it on to here unfortunately. But if you PM me your email address, I will "lend" you an electronic copy of that document. It is fairly basic, but very informative and as you can see, easy reading. I still believe that Mark Levine and his book on Jazz Theory is the most comprehensive I have come across. But even so, it is still missing in some areas. Especially if you have OCD for musical knowledge - as I do The best jazz educational publication I have is by [url="http://www.barryharris.com/"](link here)[/url] Barry Harris, who is a great educator and a brilliant musician and man, still teaching for no financial reward in New York at the age of 80. A DVD (4 hours) with him in a practical class allied to a superb book which explains in depth all of his theories (and he turns a few previous conventional ideas upside down) has been the most impressive I have in my library. You can borrow that too, if you like. He certainly puts a different take on Jazz theory. He actually played at the Vanguard (still does) and sat in with Charlie Parker et al. I have written this last bit with the intent of introducing Barry Harris to anyone who hasn't heard about him and wants to learn. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Harris"]Here is his impressive C.V.[/url], and profile. Rob

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='521081' date='Jun 22 2009, 07:56 PM']Hi Rob - I must say I'm enjoying all our various ramblings - it makes me think about things I've not thought about for years! Re 5ths: I think I've finally cottoned on to what you were talking about ! You are right of course - if there is one note that CAN be left out of a 7th chord it is the 5th. And this idea (as you know I won't call it a RULE!) stems from the classical period when all harmony theorising was in 4 parts or voices - a string quartet or SATB (soprano/also/tenor/bass) for instance. (This is the way I was taught at music college back in the dark ages. Endless 4 part harmony exercises with RULES like no consecutive fifths or doubled thirds - all perfectly reasonable if you want to write "church" harmony - but if like me you were into voluptuous jazz chords it was soooo boring!) So if a 5 note chord - say a C dominant 9th - was to be written for string quartet (4 parts), the 5th, being the least important note, was omitted. That is not to say that its omission won't make the chord sound different - its just the one note that has the least effect on the chord's overall tonality. As you said, the 5th is implied anyway by the harmonic overtones of the tonic. So we are in full agreement - OK ? (Note to self - I must learn to read people's words more carefully) The Major[/quote] Of course we are in agreement And thanks again for your eloquent explanation. Rob

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='518852' date='Jun 19 2009, 09:14 PM']I'm running out of time now so I'll discuss 11th s with you next time. Actually reading this back, I don't think I've addressed you comments properly - I think we agree more than we disagree. But its fun trying to clarify ones thoughts. The Major[/quote] I agree with everything you say And perhaps we are just putting things in different ways. I was trying to keep things really simple, because of the nature of the topic - and perhaps my points, although in agreement with yours, were a little too vague and therefore could be misleading. Anyway, it's been interesting and thanks for your input. I hope you can convey more of your wisdom and knowledge in future posts, I look forward to them. Rob

[quote name='XB26354' post='518978' date='Jun 19 2009, 11:41 PM']I think the above addresses some of the key elements of harmony (especially Jazz harmony) - tension and release, and the tritone (which some consider to be the most important interval or tension in music). When talking about 11th chords, or sus chords and minor ninths, it is of course possible to play a chord with a major 3rd and perfect 4th (same as a perfect 11th an octave lower). In my explorations on piano I find that if you voice the chord with the 4th below the 3rd you get a lovely rich sound, and remove one of the most dissonant clashes when 3rd is below 4th. There is a great version of "Caravan" on Michel Camilo's "Rendezvous" Where Anthony Jackson plays a root-minor 9th double stop against the prevailing 7b9 harmony - daring but fit perfectly. I don't see any problem in looking at harmony in a number of different ways. Going back to the question, and borrowing a bit from classical harmony a bassist could do worse than look at the melody and work out ways to play contrapuntal (i.e. moving in opposite direction to the change in pitch of each melody note). I remember a very short Scott Henderson column in Guitar Player where he looked at reharmonisation. Take any melody note then build a chord that fits on each of the 12 possible bass notes (e.g., if the melody note is C, then you could have C, DbMaj7, D7/Dm7m Eb6/9, E7+5, Any F, any Gb7#11, G7sus, Ab, A7#9, BbMaj9, B7b9 - these are just one possible sequence). This opens your ears up to the possibility of on-the-fly reharmonisation, from which, if you're not careful, you could end up with harmolodics! Topically, Ornette Coleman is chairing this year's Meltdown festival in London...[/quote] Great post, thanks. The Scott Henderson info is interesting...... When I brought up the minor 9th "discussion" I didn't think it would develop this far Hopefully the attached document will assist as a GENERAL guide on why this interval can be the most dissonant of them all.

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='519423' date='Jun 20 2009, 04:44 PM']PMd! Anybody else got any more?[/quote] I've sent them.

I've got "Spooky" and "Son of a preacher man" if thats any help? The bass parts and full arrangement for an eight piece band (3 horns). Let me know if you want them and PM your email to me. I'll send them straight over. Rob

[quote name='Ba55me15ter' post='518370' date='Jun 19 2009, 01:40 PM']Would you believe the first time back here this year - the recession has bitten and 5-piece bands are rationed! Anyway, first 'seems quiet tonight' set at 9.30pm, the 'definitely livening up a bit' set at 10.30pm and the 'whoo it's packed - I am a rock god' set at 11.30pm. Free to get in before 10 (fiver after). Rock, pop, funk and soul for your aural pleasure. And you can dance if you want to. There are usually girls and everything. Proper beer is a bit lacking but hey, you can't have everything (it seems).[/quote] And the venue is?

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=50713&hl=nut+buzz"]Tried reading this?[/url] There are a few others who have been on about similar probs lately. You can use the search thingy.............

In addition to my previous ramblings, and to clear up a few points, below is a link to a scale syllabus. It is fairly basic, but covers every chord and gives you a scale that will "fit" when you are creating walking bass lines. Just remember that there are alternative scales to some of the chords, and you can experiment to develop your own preferences. For those who don't read music, it also shows a simple way to develop the scale using a half step (one fret at a time) whole step (two frets) method. For extended chords, for example, 11ths and 13ths, remember that these are respectively the 4th and 6th of the scale. Have fun, and don't "do your brains in"!! If you have any questions about any of it, feel free to ask by PM . Although I am sure that open questions will be more welcome and help everyone. A sort of FAQ on relative scales to chords if you like. I hope it is of use and will help to find the notes you like when creating walking bass lines from a chord sheet. I have also added[url="http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57278"] this link[/url] to a very informative piece "Principles of Jazz Bass Line Construction" by Chuck Israels, the ex bass player for Bill Evans. It has audio samples too.

[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='517998' date='Jun 18 2009, 11:40 PM']Slagging off venues is a great way to get gigs…[/quote] Alternatively, it might be a way to get the venues to get their act together - if they are made aware that bands won't go there because of their sh*t attitude?

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' date='Jun 18 2009, 11:21 PM' post='517988'] The one with the speakers in the middle facing eachother = [url="http://www.myspace.com/terrasolis"]Doom[/url] is it for sale? Thats the one. Two forward facing with a port in the middle, and the other two facing each other below and above the port. No, sorry, it isn't for sale. If I win some money, I am going to employ a couple of personal roadies and use it. If nothing else, my ear wax problem will be resolved.

[quote name='JBassist' post='517901' date='Jun 18 2009, 10:12 PM']any help its to confusing for me to read stanley, jaco, victor solos etc so i think ill make my own[/quote] OK...........

I have a 4X15 Acoustic cab (a la Jaco) that I bought in 1980 that should give a fair degree of trouser flap. I haven't used it for 15 years because I can't afford a crane to get it in to the van.

[quote name='dlloyd' post='517854' date='Jun 18 2009, 09:34 PM']Remember that usually we're not the only ones forming the harmony. Guitarists and pianists tend to play the 3rd and 7th (and appropriate extensions and altered notes) for the reasons rslaing mentioned, and will usually provide that part of the harmony. Concentrating mostly on roots, thirds and fifths (on the strong beats) should also prevent the overall harmony from getting too weird by keeping the chord in the root position, 1st and 2nd inversions. But then, I'm no expert.[/quote] Good point, and as I said, your choice of notes depends upon what the other players in the band are playing. Which is where your knowledge of the other players and their preferences, as well as your "ears" come in to play. In my experience, and in agreement with your comment, I always accentuate the chordal notes on the "strong" beats, to determine the key areas or modes, and use the "less strong" ( I nearly said weaker, but there isn't such a thing really) beats to play the extended chord tones and altered notes. And BTW, I am not an expert either, I just like to chuck in my knowledge to date. If I learn something from a contradiction, I am the richer for it. Although I do have a slight problem relating some of my theories because I'm from Newcastle.

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='517839' date='Jun 18 2009, 09:08 PM']Hi rslaing I feel I must comment on your post. I think most of what you say or allude to is quite correct and very well put. However I must take issue with a couple of points (or is that a couple of pints too many today ?!)[/quote] Too many pints probably [quote]You start off by saying the fifth of the chord is an important note. Then you seem to say the fifth can be omitted without affecting the sound of the chord. This is where i take issue with you. As every arranger knows, the fifth of the chord can be a great tool for creating counterpoint lines. It can be sharpened or flattened (assuming the melody note is not the fifth) - for instance think of the intro to the James Bond theme: the fifth moves up a semitone to the aug 5th and then to the 6th and down again. When the melody comes in - tonic/2nd/tonic/minor 3rd etc - the counterpoint line continues in the same way.[/quote] I agree! But the point I was trying to make is that the chord is defined by the 3rd and the seventh. These are the most important notes that will define the "sound" of the chord. If you omit either of these in preference to the fifth, the chord will sound "weaker". Try it - play C - E(the third as against the fifth) - Bb as a chord (C7) and then play C - G (the fifth)- Bb as a C7. The latter is profoundly weaker. In other words, in a 3 note chord (in jazz) , the note to omit is the fifth, because it will be heard as a harmonic overtone from the root anyway. [quote]So what I'm trying to say is that the fifth is equally important in creating a harmonic movement - you can't say that any one note of the chord is less important than another. If the fifth in a given chord is a natural (perfect) fifth, then it is saying something about the nature of that chord and the bass player must be aware of that. If however the chord is say Dm7b5 (D half diminished) leading to G7 then that Ab in the first chord is a pivotal note in that sequence. The bass player doesn't HAVE to play Ab but an A natural will certainly sound dubious - and an Ab leading to the G root will give a clear direction to the harmony.[/quote] My points were made with reference to creating/writing walking bass lines. I add to my post by saying that if the fifth is an altered fifth, then it is very important that this note is effected. Apologies for not making that clear. Any altered note in a chord has to be obvious, and preferably but not necessarily by the bass player. [quote]You say "It is really down to personal choice - once you know THE RULES. " My mantra when teaching and giving improv workshops is that "There are no rules in music - only preferences". I'm a firm believer that the more you pile RULES onto young players the more inhibited they become. Give them a chance to experiment with the notes under their fingers and they will find out for themselves what works and what doesn't. My own musical education was full of rules and it took me years to shake them off and allow creativity to take over. Having said that, everything I was taught is theoretically correct - but music doesn't develop if you constrict it with too many rules. After all music theory is just that - a theory. You need to know and respect it - then throw it away and make your own musical decisions.[/quote] Sorry, there are rules, as you pointed out in your previous paragraph above. As Charlie Parker said - “Master your instrument, Master the music, and then forget all that sh*t and just play.” It is important that you know the basic rules, then you can just eliminate what is not necessary, or apply your own preferences. [quote]You say: "Be careful not to play (in the vast majority of cases) any minor 9th intervals that might clash harmonically. And that is why in 11th chords, the 3rd in the diatonic triad is omitted. the interval between a major third from the tonic and the 11th is a minor 9th." To be honest this makes no sense at all. Harmony can be full of dissonances (harmonic clashes) - it is what gives it direction. If the bass player plays a flattened ninth as a passing note under a dominant chord it will help to describe the harmonic direction very nicely. I think your statement here is totally confusing for anyone with limited harmonic experience and I worry that those players will go away and fret about it (no pun intended!)[/quote] Please re-read your paragraph And my quote. My comment is with reference to 11th chords - not a "normal" dominant. Minor 9ths are the most dissonant interval (as you are probably aware) and unless you are know what you are doing, avoid them. Dissonances in the hands of an expert are not a problem, and using them as an approach note they are possibly the definitive sound in jazz. I omitted to mention that a minor ninth in a dominant chord is the exception - apologies, and thanks for the correction. To a newbie or someone setting out in the area of harmony and in this case, walking bass lines, it is very important that they have this knowledge - IMO. Most non chordal and some chordal notes can be altered when reading, for example, a lead sheet, unless they clash with the melody note, just avoid minor ninths until you are aware of their impact. [quote]Hope this doesn't sound too offensive ! I agree with most of what you say - its just these 3 little points. The Major[/quote] Not at all, you can't beat a good debate (unless it is a "massdebate" of course). We need more stuff like this. To get the brain working (difficult for me) and to educate the people who want to learn. Even if it provokes conversation, it's great.

[quote name='YouMa' post='517651' date='Jun 18 2009, 06:08 PM'][url="http://www.lucaspickford.com/transnightfly.htm"]http://www.lucaspickford.com/transnightfly.htm[/url][/quote] Nice one..........

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='517558' date='Jun 18 2009, 04:42 PM']Did someone mention The Nightfly album doesn't swing??[/quote] They must be challenged in the lug department.........what about "walk between the raindrops" ?

[quote name='teej' post='517613' date='Jun 18 2009, 05:28 PM']Might I suggest (somewhat tentatively) that root, third and seventh are better choices than root, third and fifth? As the fifth is mostly the same interval, it's not getting us as near to the full chord as the seventh? Or is there another, better reason for choosing fifth? (I say this because I would use root third seventh if I'm forming a chord). [/quote] You are correct. Even tentatively The fifth is very important and a great filler note in walking bass. But a good player has to know all of the notes that will work so he can build good melodic lines. Music isn't just produced from "recipe" books and bits and bobs of information. The technical knowledge just gives a musician a springboard to work from. Musicians have to internalise what they learn, and express that knowledge without having to think about what they are doing. The instrument has to become an extension of the players mind, and the player has to be able to convey what they have in their head to their instrument in a fraction of a second. It is (in jazz especially) the 3rd and the seventh that define the chord. The tritone, is a very important interval. The fifth, because it is a strong overtone, can be omitted by a guitarist (for example) or a bassist playing chords, and still be "heard" if the root is played. That is why it can be omitted - it is the strongest overtone in the harmonic series outside of the fundamental. I learned that one from the George van Eps guitar tutorials, and what he doesn't know about harmony isn't worth knowing! He has a philosophy based on economy of effort, and very rarely (in spite of playing a seven string guitar) played more than 3 note chords. But he picked the right notes and got a really full sound. Also, if there are altered notes, like the 9th (either sharpened or flattened) these could be used in place of the chordal notes in the basic triad if desired to accentuate the harmonic differences when playing walking bass. Even if the note played isn't in the chord, it can still fit - Ray Brown used lots of "approach notes" that theoretically should not have worked. It helped that he spent most of his pronounced years with Oscar Peterson of course, they totally complimented each other. Almost psychic I would say. It is really down to personal choice - once you know THE RULES. The great jazz walking bassists use the chord changes as a canvas, and add their knowledge, experience and hearing skills to determine the lines they play. Of course, if the lead instruments are plugging away on the extension/altered chords, the bassist can stick to the primitive triads, but they rarely do. You can't feasibly create a good walking bass line from just triads. The bassist plays what they feel is the best note of their choices, and this gives the player their musical personality. In jazz, it is this that is important, unlike other genres where their sound/tone is the giveaway. (Maybe the reason for the massive turnover of gear amongst the non-jazzers in this forum?). To me it really is all about "the notes". Be careful not to play (in the vast majority of cases) any minor 9th intervals that might clash harmonically. And that is why in 11th chords, the 3rd in the diatonic triad is omitted. the interval between a major third from the tonic and the 11th is a minor 9th. However, if it is played a couple of octaves apart - it can work! All to do with understanding the harmonic series. Which only took me about 30 years.................and I still play lots of bum notes Sorry for the long rambling post (if you have got this far), been in the pub a fair bit of the day!!

Jazz trio, walking bass examples ! Might not appeal to all, but this is jazz walking bass at it's best. Sorry I couldn't any decent sounds of Oscar Peterson with Ray Brown to upload I've only linked to this because it is a good example of a simple (!) and slow line. And for the people asking about jazz, swing, etc - it is the bass and drums that really make it what it is. I guess if you listen to it enough, you will find "the feel". Just as you do with any other genre whilst you are learning. In the first (slower one) you will see how when the bassist breaks from two to the bar to quarter notes, the effect it has on the swing feel. and here is a real swinger, a bit busy for some perhaps, but a great bass contribution from one the greatest bassists ever. Open for argument as usual

[quote name='Oscar South' post='516565' date='Jun 17 2009, 04:22 PM']Normally I don't get drawn into this internet forum stuff, but this post just irritates me.[/quote] Don't let it I think the italian bloke is far more interesting. Just my opinion.

Here's an introduction to walking bass. It is fairly simplistic, but gives a very good grounding. If you like it, and want to progress further, you can always buy the whole book If you want an extensive knowledge and practice material that will advance you to a very high level, pm me and I will email you some stuff.

[quote name='Oscar South' post='516513' date='Jun 17 2009, 03:32 PM']Check out this guy [url="http://www.youtube.com/user/havic5"]http://www.youtube.com/user/havic5[/url], incredible and musical bassist, exceptional technique and he has some great instructional videos up.[/quote] Decent, but his timekeeping is poor. Couldn't listen to any of his vids all the way through I'm afraid. It's all about the groove............................