Misdee

G&L should reissue the El Toro bass. Those basses have got a cult following and sell instantly on the second hand market.I remember them when they were current, but I've never got to play one. I still remember perusing the G&L adverts in Guitar Player magazine in the early 1980s and thinking how great theu looked in Fullerton Red 

These CLF bass look (and sound) fantastic to me , by the way. I really fancy one. 

On 03/05/2021 at 13:47, Sibob said:

Well if you ever want to sell the fretless 😄.
Got a picture?

Si

I will certainly give you first refusal on the fretless Si, but I cannot envisage myself selling it any time in the foreseeable future. 🙂

I would love to show you some pictures of my Lakland basses but they are all put away in storage at the moment. I don't really have any decent pictures of them to share unfortunately.

This is an example of the "fat neck equals fat tone" theory that rears its head from time to time. I am really not qualified to either confirm or dismiss this theory, but I can say unequivocally that a Jazz Bass style neck on a P Bass does not necessarily equate to a thin tone. I've got a couple of P Basses with Jazz neck dimensions and they both sound very fat indeed. How "fat" do you need it to sound anyway? A bass either sounds good or it doesn't.

A super skinny neck may well impart a different sound, but I'm talking Fender Geddy Lee skinny rather than a more typical Jazz Bass profile.

Anyhow, I am not so sure that,if you analyse it, a Fender Precision Bass is a particularly fat or  "thunderous" sounding bass anyway. It's emphasis is on the low mids more than a super deep low end. It's got a woody complexity to the tone that is very appealing to the ear, and so suitable for so many styles of music. 

Conversely, if a P Bass sounds wrong with a Jazz neck then does a Jazz Bass with a fat neck sound wrong also? 

What is this new Kingpin of which you speak? Tell us more! 😯

I  like this finish much better on the Bongo than the Stingray. But on the Bongo the blacked-out pole pieces on the pickups ruin it for me. Those MM humbuckers are iconic, and I want to see the big round magnet slugs.

Is it just me, or have EBMM decided to make most of their new basses look like the kind of thing that Bruno Mars bass player would use at the Grammy's, i.e a kind of nouveau-Liberace glitz that really won't age well. Other folks seem to love it, but I am not keen at all.

I've had that issue with the G string zipping off the edge of the fingerboard on Musicman 5 string basses of every vintage. It is definitely a problem on the older Stingray 5s as well as the newer ones. It drives me crazy on any bass, so it is something I am acutely aware of.

Whatever the strengths and weaknesses of the individual members of Status Quo as musicians, they made it work as a band and the bass and drums made it chug along with the necessary swagger

. Back in their heyday of the 1970s  Quo were a formidable live act.  That was the real Status Quo, not the showbiz  bit of a joke household name version that came later. Quo back in the 70s were dangerous.A proper rock group. 

I think it would be quite feasible to put a regular condom over the microphone for extra protection. Then put the foam thing on top. 

13 hours ago, Sibob said:

I really want to get hold of a 44-01 fretless, possibly a 44-02, but they’re pretty rare now it seems.
Something like these:

 

Also really want to get a Hollowbody shortscale in black:

Si

I love that black short scale ! Never seen one in that colour before.

I really like Lakland basses, and regarding the fretless versions, I've got a 44-02 Deluxe fretless with an epoxy- coated  ebony fingerboard and it's a wonderful bass. Lightweight, easy to play and with loads of really useful fretless tones. Does the Musicman thing, does the Jazz Bass thing and lots of other sounds of its own as well. I  usually use the front coil of the humbucker with the mids and highs slightly boosted  to get a uniquely Lakland  kind of a sound and it really cuts through the mix.

I'm a big fan of Lakland pickups too. I think they are very underrated. To my ears they sound as good as anything on the market, and they help give Lakland basses their own distinctive personality. I love the ChiSonics and the NeoPunch P Bass for passive basses, and the MM humbucker on the active ones sounds great as well. It's not quite as heavy in the bottom end as a Musicman, but it's got a bit more midrange support.

I suppose another thing that defines Lakland basses is the small vintage-style frets. They give the basses a different feel, and some would argue a slightly different sound, i.e a bit more woody , for want of a better term. They don't suit every taste, but I have learnt to love them.

Wonderful to hear this as an isolated track, as it is to hear all the others you have posted. Now I know I've been playing this one almost right! Keep up the good work!

On 24/04/2021 at 12:08, drTStingray said:

AFAIK Musicman has reduced production for Covid related reasons. The worldwide cost of shipping has also increased massively, along with delays.

My only disagreement with your post really is comparing US Fender with Musicman - the truer comparison is with Fender US Custom Shop (team built) as that involves a similar level of manual input, and much of Musicman's guitar output is using figured maple, for instance, which may increase costs. I wasn't really talking build quality - although I agree Fender US has had improved quality for some while now. So have all the cheaper level instruments from non US production. 

I also like G and L (apart from not getting on with the MFD pickups) and have never really understood why such bargains are to be had with their instruments, especially second hand.

I don't really understand how Fender could have had it's best year for sales last year (in a Global pandemic affecting production and some elements of shipping) from a supply angle unless the majority of instruments sold were either already with retailers, making them less affected as immediately, by current conditions or they, somehow are able to absorb more of the cost increase, production downturn (unless the manual input is minimal) and can respond to increased demand in the light of the issues mentioned. Otherwise it doesn't add up. 

We will just have to wait and see whether some brands have been able to insulate in the longer term,  consumers from the pandemic and related (or in some cases not) issues affecting costs. 

There are so many great things about EBMM Musicman basses that it would take me too long to list them, and for my own sonic tastes at least, these new Stingray Specials are  just about the best -sounding Stingrays I've ever heard. They've tamed the treble a bit and added even more punch to the sound. But £3000 is a bit too optimistic on their part. It's asking Maserati money for a Volkswagen.

I take your point about the Fender CS comparison, but most Fender CS basses have quartersawn necks nowadays, and you can custom order to your requirements. EBMM basses  have flatsawn necks with no graphite  reinforcement, and   MM have become increasingly limited in the options they offer their customers. That is because standardisation is a way of maximizing efficiency and therefore profits.

All this business about supply problems, transportation issues ect really is the concern of the manufacturer, not the consumer. It's also probably a smokescreen/red herring to excuse the  decision to increase profit margins to offset the cost to their business of covid and the subsequent worldwide lockdown. They are taking a punt that we will be prepared to pay three grand for a bass worth two grand rather than deny ourselves the thrill of owning one of these glittering (literally) new offerings. I suspect very strongly that EBMM are looking to make back the money they have lost , it's as simple as that.

What will be fascinating is how well they have judged their potential customers. And if they succeed in selling their guitars at this price point then what next? Presumably the sky's the limit! And if folks don't buy EBMM'S at the new prices what will happen then?

18 hours ago, drTStingray said:

The US Fenders truly are mass produced instruments - Musicman are more on a par with PRS, Rickenbacker or US Custom Shop Fenders (team built) - they certainly contain as much manual input and finishing and are not high volume in the Fender/Gibson sense - these really are the Fords of the instrument world. 

So you're really not comparing apples with apples and we all know that the prices of those types I've mentioned are actually on a par with one another.

We also know that Fender's business model included parking vast quantities of instruments with retailers (indeed they would have to accept this to be dealers). Do we even know whether we've seen the true, 2021 Fender instrument prices in the UK or are we still talking sale of historic warehouse or dealer stock? 

Seeing all the other Covid related, supply chain related, shipping related issues (see other threads for people's problems getting items shipped to/from abroad, including the US), I'm not surprised prices have gone up - I'm not happy about it but that's the way it is - simple economics - short supply = higher prices. 

We'll just have to stump up more for these instruments in the future or do without them - and I won't be doing the latter!! 

PS the Stingray Special design was 2018 - whilst the 4 string is based on the 1976 design/ shape there are a vast number  of differences - but retaining enough of the original design - so the sparkly colours are a different (in my view pretty good) set of colours on a three year old product. 

Sparkly coloured Stingrays first appeared around 2000, but weren't produced for long - and lamented by Stingray fans after - I think they listened to the market introducing them on the 2018 Stingray Specials (along with other more traditional colours).  

The Fender factory in California turns out more guitars than EBMM, but it isn't half as big as you might suppose. It is inaccurate to portray Fender as churning out a vast number of lesser quality instruments in comparison to an EBMM factory which produces  small numbers of high quality artisan- made guitars with a superior degree of integrity.

I've  had a fair few new EBMM basses over the years, and some of them were great, some not so great in terms of their construction quality. Just the same as my experience of the USA Fenders. 

 May I ask, how do you know that EBMM are experiencing greater production costs and supply chain problems due to fallout from covid? Is that what EBMM have said or is it something you are supposing ? Business models, supply chains and the like are the concern of the manufacturer and their dealers. If they make a mess of things and can't get their goods to market at a realistic  price then it's not the consumers role to make  up excuses or explanations on their behalf .

Are EBMM subject to these alleged  increased costs more than other manufacturers of a similar size, such as G&L, for example? ( I mention G&L because I have consistently found them to be better made than EBMM basses with equally good proprietary hardware and their own signature sound, just like Musicman. )Why aren't  all the others following suit and jacking up their prices to such a degree? I totally understand (and share😊) your enthusiasm for Musicman basses, but because you have been  a repeat customer over many years ,EBMM owe  a debt of loyalty to you, not the other way around.

Ultimately as buyers we will look at three grand for a new Stingray and then look round at what else you can get for that money.  In my estimation the 2021 Stingray Specials are overpriced by about a grand  (certainly £800-£900)for the quality of guitar that they are.

4 hours ago, Eldon Tyrell said:

Fully agree. I really hope customers will not let EBMM get away with it, especially as they are charging non US based customers suddenly so much more - Price for a new Stingray Special in Raspberry Burst: $2,399 in the US (Sweetwater) and £2,899 in the UK (Andertons). Well, don't think so 😡

My perspective on this is that EBMM have the perfect right to charge whatever they please for their basses, and the consumer will decide whether or not to pay that price.

What I am wondering is why EBMM have decided that now is the time for such a shift in pricing. Maybe they are in such financial trouble due to to Covid/ lockdown ect that they see no other way to survive. If so ,then they are taking a gamble. They could end up with 100 percent of nothing. Or maybe they feel they have been undervaluing their goods.They may genuinely believe that the buying public has had it too good for too long. It's worth considering that one of the things that contributes to perceived value of luxury goods is the high price tag they demand.It's the retail equivalent of The Emporers New Clothes.

Most likely, though, is that it is a combination of a lot of things, including what I have just speculated on . It would be nice to be able to ask EBMM the question directly. And what will they do if no one buys them ?

I'll still probably end up buying one in the end and be left sucking lemons because of the price. Thing is I could do with two, one for rounds and one for flats. That was my original plan.Now I will have to settle for one if I am lucky and keep changing the strings. As if I didn't have enough to do already.

4 hours ago, drTStingray said:

I think these new colours are great and if it wasn't for the fact I already have Stingray Specials in great colours I would be in the market for one of these, in spite of the current prices. They certainly aren't out of step with other low volume high end stuff (Rick, dare I say, Fender CS) - I think we have to remember the world's changed for the reasons mentioned - anyone tried to buy a bike (pedal type) recently? They can be very hard to come by - same with parts of firms like Ikea's range - you'll find some items are fine others not available. Covid has affected production - allegedly Fender had their best year for sales ever - one wonders if that was caused by people buying stuff that had been parked in retailer's warehouses for ages, unless Covid didn't affect them the same way it has everyone else - there certainly seem to be general supply chain issues and shipping issues for goods across the board. 

Im reminded I paid £375 for my brand new pre EB Stingray in 1980 - it'd be worth £2750+ now!! Used prices tend to reflect how quickly people want to sell. £800 is a daft price for a 1991 Stingray!! 

I also have a Bongo and I'm reminded it's sat in its case - I'd better get it out and put one of the Rays away !!! 

I have been mildly tempted by basses in the EBMM vault - notably the Joe Dart - if EBMM want to issue another Stingray variant in one of these posh colours with a graphite neck I would probably buy one - unless any Members here want to sell me one 😏 Has to be a factory variant though - I know of at least one @hiram.k.hackenbacker 👍😂

Conversely an artist series Tony Levin 5 string (or Pino fretless) if EBMM are planning anything like that!! 

Sorry to say it my friend, but EBMM basses are not "low volume high end". They are mid-market mass-produced instruments. You are kidding yourself if you think they are manufactured to the same standard as a   well designed prestige  luthier- made bass. (However, it must be said, I have much more fun playing a Musicman bass than a great many fancy boutique basses. How good quality does a bass guitar need to be? Anyhow...)I think your Rickenbacker /Fender CS comparisons  are about right,  whilst bearing in mind that most analogies don't bear close examination.

That said, there is no doubt that these new Stingrays are very worthwhile instruments. I am not that keen on most of the colours , but each to their own, there is no right and wrong to it. The real controversy is the grotesque price increase which has accompanied their introduction. The pound has been relatively stable against the dollar. Paint hasn't suddenly rocketed in price. They don't claim to be made any different. The only thing that has changed is the  profit margins that the manufacturer and/ or distributors have decided they need to make. 

I am in the market for a new Stingray Special - I bought one last year but it had holes in it so it had to go back - but I can't see myself being the guy who pays three grand for a Stingray. I might as well abandon all reason and buy a  new German-made "custom shop" Warwick .(Actually , I would probably need to get some kind of a mortgage for that.)

It will be very interesting to see how the market responds to EBMM's new prices. Will this be the guitar equivalent of the European Super League, or will the buying public just shrug their shoulders and accept a new reality where Musicman basses cost that much? And if they manage to get away with it, will other manufacturers follow suit?

1 hour ago, uncle psychosis said:

Musical instruments must be one of the only "technologies" out there that have people genuinely trying to argue that we've got worse at building over the years. 

What logical reason would tell anyone that an instrument made in a factory in the sixties (or even by a "master craftsman") would be any better than any high end modern bass, built with the benefit of an additional 70+ years of understanding? 

Vintage instruments are cool as anything. They have mojo. I get it. Some of them are really very good indeed. But if you don't really care about history, mojo, or collectibility then the price tag is unjustifiable. The value comes from rarity, not from intrinsic quality.  

 

You've hit the nail on the head there.

3 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Not without an amp!

Exactly.

I seem to remember that a few years ago PRS were marketing a batch of guitars ( an extremely limited quantity, of course) made from wood from the forest where , according to local legend, Stradivarius harvested the timber for his creations. If that doesn't guarantee you a truly magical instrument I don't know what will.

31 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

I read that last post with intrigue.

Is an instrument that creates sound by passing a piece of metal through a magnetic field ever going to be technologically advanced?

No, but it's going to be loud.😄

3 minutes ago, NickA said:

On the subject of ancient violins.  ALL those being played have been modified eg with steeper neck angles, bigger bass bars etc to get more power out of them.  An unmodified Stradivarius would be considered unplayable by modern standards.   The only exceptions are a few mint examples in museums that are never played, those are literally priceless, but not exactly "gigged".

On which basis .. if you think your 1955  precision sounds good, just think how much better it would be with modern pickups and an active EQ 🙂

NB: there are only 244 Strad violins known about with maybe another 356 still around but "lost".  pre CBS Fender basses are common as muck by comparison.

Those Strads are overrated, just like classical music in general . Nevermind fancy violins , if Stradivarius had been as clever as folks make out he would have invented an amp. Even cheap modern  violins that they lend to schoolchildren  to try learn on are loud enough nowadays to drive you crazy if you put them in the right hands, which they usually do...

Like some of the other Basschatters of more senior years, I can remember when a lot of what is nowadays vintage gear was new,  and/or  not particularly desirable on the second hand market. So much of what folks are paying for is romantic ideas rather than any tangible advantage vintage basses have over their modern counterparts.  I love old Fender basses as much as anybody, but in terms of sound and playability a decent level recent USA Fender is just as good or better. I have owned several  1970s P Basses- I used them in the 1980s because they were cheap- and none of them were as good as my 2010 American Standard P Bass I bought new. The same with Jazz Basses.

I would rather spend money on a new boutique USA Lakland or Lull  or new Fender CS than a mid to late 70s Fender that I could have picked up for £200 back in the late 1980s. To me basses are tools that I like to work properly. The vast majority of vintage basses are like vintage cars, or great to look at and have a go on but a bit of a pain in the derrière to own and maintain.         As for "hifi" basses such as JD or Wal ect, I cannot think of anything else that could possibly make me feel so old as the idea that such basses are now considered vintage.This was never meant to happen! It's like people talking about vintage space travel.These basses epitomised everything that was modern in an age when modernity was the ideal. If you want such a bass then do the appropriate thing and buy a new one, preferably from the Bass Center at Wapping when it was upstairs, and pay about £700- 800 quid for it. Make sure you are sporting a mullet and a questionable outfit from Top Man  for the authentic experience.

The big problem with slap bass is that people got too good at it. Back in the 70s old school slap ( which was actually new school at the time) sounded great on a lot of records. But as time went on slapping developed to the extent that it lost a lot of its charm . Victor Wooten can slap like a demon, but for my taste at least, his playing lacks the magic  and  distinctive character of Larry Graham or Chuck Rainey  and the best  slap players from that earlier era. 

On 23/03/2021 at 11:02, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

I have a feeling I might. I also have a nagging feeling that if I wanted to replace it at some point, I would struggle to find one in as such beautiful condition or sounding anywhere near as good. The only reason for the sale is that I’m about to pull the trigger on a custom build and I’ve already reached my self imposed ‘bass limit’.

Look at the price of the forthcoming 2021 Stingray Specials! If they cost three grand  then what would one of these be nowadays? A sobering thought. 

If you can live with 18mm spacing and medium weight , how about a Yamaha BB P35 or a used Bb2025 ? The tone is a great blend of modern punch  and traditional passive grunt.

I've got one of these. It's a terrific bass, but you need to be aware of the chunky neck profile. For some reason, I know not why, Fender decided to give these basses a big "U" -shaped neck. That is not  necessarily a bad thing by any means, but if you are expecting the more typical svelte Jazz Bass  neck dimensions then these basses could be a bit of a shock. I should also point out that the nut is slightly narrower than a typical Jazz Bass, and that seems to offset the chunkyness to some extent.

I love the chunky neck on mine , and I can shred on it as  well as I can on  any of my other basses  (i.e not very well at all 😄) despite it being more of a handful.   Nowadays I've got Thomastik flats on mine and I use it primarily  as my reggae bass. Nails all the classic tones perfectly. The  big neck feels really good for playing those kind of basslines on .

The 74 vintage reissue pickups are superb. They were developed for this bass but Fender subsequently marketed them as a separate item, and they would probably be my first choice if I were looking for a set of raunchy- sounding Jazz Bass pickups.

I've had plenty of high -end Jazz Basses and in comparison I would have to describe the 74 AVRI as being much more Fender - like, i.e flawed but brimming with personality, if that makes sense. The 74 AVRI has got clank and clunk rather than the thump and sizzle you get from a lot of modern- sounding  boutique Jazz Basses. 

The best sounding Stingray ever, in my opinion. A very beautiful bass too. Seems a bit of a bargain at the price. Definitely one for the Stingray connoisseur. GLWTS.I hope you don't regret it.