Misdee

What is going to kill CD is downloads rather than vinyl. To my grandkids a vinyl record might as well be a penny-farthing bike. Besides which, with the advent of Tidal and lossless audio etc. downloads can sound very good on a decent system.

Unless something has changed recently, the US-made Laklands do indeed have their fret-jobs done by hand. The Plek machine is for the Skylines. My US Lakland PJ plays so well that it's a bit spooky!

Back in the 70's and 80's loads of pop chart records had great bass lines. The Top 40 was chock-a-block with them.

Regarding MM overall quality, I too have always found it to be very good indeed, but by the same token, every brand can have the odd sub-standard example. I've never played a Sandberg, and I hope you all realise that my criticisms of the aesthetics, whilst heart-felt, are a tad tongue in cheek .Ultimately there is no substitute for sitting down with a bass and finding out if you enjoy playing it. I know it is stating the obvious,but five minutes with a bass in your hand is usually more useful than five hours looking at pictures and reading about it.

I'll talk you out of a Sandberg. The headstock is too big and ungainly. And those oversized single magnet slugs on the Fender -style pickups don't look right. And I don't like the name either.

TI Jazz Flats sound wicked on a Jazz Bass. Yes, they can affect the way you think and play but that is not a bad thing by any means.

It might be my prejudice, but this Darkglass stuff seems to be geared towards what you might call New Metal/Math Rock genres rather than more mainstream musical styles. It does look like lovely quality equipment, though, and I really like the styling. As an aside, in keeping with MM20s observations on tone, I've serious misgivings about the amount of distortion it is practical for a bass guitar to use in a band situation. Too much fuzz just sounds "fizzy." A bit of grit and grind is one thing, but there is definitely such a thing as too much. In practice, most bands would benefit from having a clean, solid bass tone, especially in heavy music where the guitars are already exploiting distortion.

I heard about this farewell Sabbath gig last night on Radio 4. For a whole host of reasons it is making me feel very old! I remember only too well,in the 1970's when Black Sabbath, along with Status Quo, were the preferred sound track for denim-clad bovver boys at every comprehensive school in Britain. I was never a fan, but nonetheless, history should recognise that after The Beatles, Sabbath are the most influential band this country has ever produced. Hard Rock/Heavy Metal is a hugely popular on a global scale and Black Sabbath defined the genre. They were the first and have never been bettered. It's not surprising that they are past their best. These "See the legends in the flesh" tours are almost invariably crap. Let's face it, they are all mainly doing it for the money. Nevertheless, Black Sabbath were once magnificent trail-blazers and a great British export. They deserve credit for that.

Tina Weymouth is a good shout, also, from the same era, Sting. I know that nowadays some people roll their eyes at his public pronouncements on eco issues etc, but back in the day when The Police burst onto the scene Sting was a captivating presence, a creative and innovative bass stylist. A role model to a whole generation of post-punk bass players.

These pedals look pretty good to me, but I'm a bit shocked at the £300 price tag. Yes, that's three hundred of your English pounds. It's even harder to understand this price when you consider that it is made in the UK and therefore less immediately affected by the fall in the exchange rate. This would have to be one hell of an envelope filter to be worth so much more than the obvious competition.

I have to be honest and say that, regardless of price, this design doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. Not my taste. However, in the wider context, the problem I have with most of these "super-Fender" basses is that they sound too refined, missing the essential grit and grunt which is the heart of the Fender tone. Adding a preamp usually only makes matters worse. Marcus Miller has a great sound, but I'm not sure about the thousands of bad imitators he has inspired. In the right hands a good Fender bass sounds as satisfying as any other bass on the market, whatever it costs. A Fodera at whatever price, will sound different and some may prefer that tone. But in terms of the sound coming out of your speakers, can you say that it is demonstrably better than a Fender? I almost always prefer the rawer tone of a Fender, but that might be my eccentricity in old age.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1484004665' post='3211968'] Really? These basses are regularly using shims? I wonder how you know that? [/quote] I know that because over the years I have either read first-hand accounts or experienced it myself. Roger Sadowsky, for example, is on record as defending the use of shims as a perfectly legitimate guitar building technique with no detrimental influence on tone. Wal basses were more often than not shimmed, too. That is back in the day, I'm not sure if Paul Hermann has the same approach. My USA Lakland isn't shimmed, but I don't doubt that Lakland would have shimmed it had the action not gone low enough when it was assembled. What else could they have done except throw the body away? Most vintage Fenders that people pay a fortune for were, apparently, shimmed with pieces of sandpaper at the factory.

I wouldn't see the fact that MM basses have a factory-fitted shim as being a sign of sub-standard quality, rather just how they approach building their basses. Loads of high-end basses routinely have shims, including, for example, Wal, Sadowsky and Roscoe, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lakland regularly use shims too.

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1481896672' post='3196087'] My REAL 4001 stereo was £400 brand new in the mid seventies.... [/quote] £400 was an awful lot of money to most folks back then! That's around the time I started playing, and a Shaftesbury Ric copy was one of the basses I aspired to. A real one was way beyond my means. I'm not sure I am nostalgic for those good old days, but I often think how thrilled I would have been then with the gear I have now (USA Fenders etc).

I can appreciate the skills of a player like Sharay Reed, but it does nothing for me, and to be honest with you, I think it lacks the taste and maturity of the best players. Just a bit too much of everything and not enough restraint. YMMV, of course. There is no doubt the young man has exceptional ability, and each to his own! For me, it doesn't get any better than this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoDamvrfUbQ

I don't know anything about the new Fleabass, but I heard the new RHCP single on the radio this morning and the melody of the verses bears an uncanny resemblance to "Benny and the Jets" by Elton John.

Been looking at Warwick basses on the internet in relation to this thread and I would [i]really[/i] like to order one to my own spec! Either a hollow body or a Streamer LX would do nicely, thank you.

[quote name='Kev' timestamp='1479511610' post='3177239'] They are expensive, but they are incredibly well built now. Believe me, compare the basses that were built in the early 00's with the ones being built today and they are worlds apart. In my (rather extended) experience, the current Warwick builds are the best they have every built as a company. The build quality of my 2013 Streamer was notably better than the dozen or so eighties/early nineties Warwick basses I have been through. The difficulty is they used to be cheaper, which makes them seem so expensive now. Ultimately though, their workshop will be very similar to other high end bass builders. Take Dingwall for example, they are not dissimilar in cost, but you rarely see as much bleating about Dingwall prices. The so called 'masterbuilt' basses are built using top end machinery in a workshop that only produces 250 or so instruments a year. [/quote] I take your point entirely, if you want top quality you have to pay accordingly. Nothing wrong with that. My last point of reference is the early 2000's era Warwicks when they went over to the rather fat ovankol necks, and the overall quality seemed to have dropped a bit. I used to play them in Academy of Sound and Sound Control around that time. By comparison the late '80's to mid '90's Warwicks were wicked basses. I'm basically a Fender guy and not into hi-fi exotic wood basses, but Warwicks have a more gutsy sound than most of those kind of basses. The wood really seems to make a difference. If you have played the more recent basses and they are of superior quality to any previous ones, then fair enough. I still think they are somewhat over-priced, recent fluctuation in the exchange rate not withstanding. Bear in mind that Warwick basses in the UK still benefit from the Single Market, a generally favourable exchange rate and relatively close proximity to the UK. Dingwall and other basses made in North America do not enjoy these advantages.

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1479391223' post='3176184'] Having just been through the process of buying my dream Warwick, I am all too familiar with their pricing and manufacturing options. Back in the good old days Warwicks were all made in the German factory and you could pick your extras, like hardware colour, for free. These are now effectively classed as Custom Shop and Masterbuilt - in practice there is no difference between the two options other than whether you take the standard spec (Masterbuilt) or ask for a tweak or two (Custom Shop). These are only made to order - some shops will order them, but they are scarily expensive, bit like the Gibson Custom Shop. Warwick lean on them being made by experienced luthiers - I have no idea if this is a true distinction, and again, it's something that Gibson have been doing of late to justify high prices. They then have the Teambuilt/Pro option, which used to be made in the Czech factory and finished in Germany but that is now back in Germany, albeit at a separate factory, so they can legitimately say are made in Germany, albeit "overseen" by the luthiers that make the Masterbuilt/Custom Shop ones rather than made by them. Standard specs only, and what is noticeable is that they quite often use different woods to the Masterbuilt models, and have a limited range of models. they are, however, about half the cost of a Masterbuilt - more in line with the Warwicks from the good old days. these are more widely available, but still not a huge amount of stockists. There is then the Rockbass, which are made in China and now badged as a Warwick. Again, a limited range of models, but a third of the price of a Teambuilt. These are most of the "Warwicks" that you'll see in shops. For a full run down of which workshop makes which basses: [url="http://shop.warwick.de/?&lang=en&modul=shop_new&site=shop_overview&&ctree=D0746768001321517432A47035|D0780229001321517432A47059"]http://shop.warwick....321517432A47059[/url] As others have commented, the second hand price for original German built Warwicks is ridiculously low, basically a similar price to a new Rockbass...my feelings on this may have been significantly affected by my selling a couple of old ones to help finance my Custom Shop purchase. With the re-badging of Rockbasses as Warwick's I'd be very careful about any second hand purchase, although the Rockbasses I've tried have been fine, but I'd have been very annoyed if I thought I was buying a German one and it turned out that it wasn't. I've also heard about them being a very difficult company for shops to deal with - I remember having to wait weeks for my first Streamer JazzMan, with GAK being the only place in the UK that had a confirmed order, and they'd been waiting some weeks beyond the original delivery date for it to show up. they told me that despite having the order confirmed, they had to wait for the boxes to arrive and open them up to see what they'd been sent that week. I had a similar response when buying another one from Thomann, that they had a confirmed order but could only tell me when they had been told to expect it, which from experience was no guarantee that it would arrive on that date. the shame is that unlike, say ten or fifteen years ago, you can't find a shop that has a decent range of the German made basses to try out and see what you want - I first came across them when looking for an active five string in Denmark Street, and the Bass Cellar had the whole range (albeit that they didn't have the model that I wanted in a five string - hence my dealings with GAK). If I did the same today I don't think I'd be going for a new Warwick, just because I wouldn't be able to find anybody that had the whole range for me to try. But for all that...they are great basses. Though having just spunked a huge amount of cash for one I would say that wouldn't i? [/quote] Thanks for clarifying the various manufacturing options that Warwick are currently offering. I had been a bit confused up to now as to what actually constituted a proper German-made Warwick nowadays. So essentially, what Warwick are now calling a Masterbuilt / Custom Shop bass is what I would call "a Warwick". I too remember when that's how they all were, and they didn't cost anything like the equivalent of what they do now. To make an analogy, they are asking Rolls Royce money for a Volkswagen, if you follow my drift. Volkswagen are great cars, and Warwicks are great basses but you pays your money and you takes your choice. I can't imagine too many punters in the UK will be stumping up between four and six and a half grand for a Warwick bass. It's a classic case of being priced out of the market. In the interest of balance, it has to be said that whoever owns Warwick is a business man not an altruist. I'm sure he knows what he is doing in terms of making a profit, and he is not under any onus to make his basses "affordable" . Over the years I've seen Warwick grow from being just another little independent bass-maker to what must be one of the biggest guitar companies in Europe, so in commercial terms he must be doing something right!

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1479338147' post='3175858'] I suspect there are lots of people playing Warwick basses - just not that many who come on forums and talk about them a lot. In fact I've bumped into quite a few enthusiastic Warwick players. They are a great instrument using quality components and construction and they have their own signature tone. If you can get them for that price used then that's absolutely ludicrous when you consider some if the other stuff you could get for that price, some of which would be distinctly ubiquitous and decidedly average in comparison. Their upper range standard basses are easily in a par with Fender Custom Shop, as are Musicman, US Lakland and G and L - all of which quite wrongly get compared with the more run of the mill US basses. I would not be deterred from buying a new Warwick if that's what I wanted - I'm pretty sure I'd be satisfied by what I received. There is a certain view on this forum that 'getting a used bargain' is somehow better than buying a brand new instrument - as someone who has done both, I have to say ordering and buying a brand new instrument is a great experience and gives a lot of pleasure which, for me, is usually beyond buying a used bargain. I have only once bought a used Musicman which has given me anywhere near the pleasure of those I've bought new - for those that have experienced it, it has some parallels with buying and bonding with a new car. I have no worry about the depreciation on basses - and with Brexit and other political lunatics about, such is the economic situation that there ain't too much depreciation anyway!! For those who live for the used bargain, if that's what floats your boat then that's great. A new Warwick would be quite a pleasure! I would find someone with some in stock and make a trip to try out - then maybe order what you want. [/quote] I don't disagree with what you say about the merits and pleasures of buying a brand new bass, but I can't help but think that full-tilt German-made Warwick basses are a special case in so much as in recent years they have become grotesquely over-priced. Don't get me wrong they are lovely basses - I'd love to buy a sunburst hollow body Star Bass, same as the one Lee Sklar plays - but the German basses are currently weighing in at between just over four grand and rising to close to six with options that used to be standard on basses that retail for between one and two grand in the UK not all that long ago. It seems to me that the ordinary consumer is being asked to pay for Warwick's extensive worldwide network of endorsements. They are good basses, but there is nothing about them that elevates them to that retail level. They are essentially factory- made guitars.

Fret size is something I too have been thinking about lately, essentially for the same reasons as the O.P. My main bass is a USA Lakland PJ with a Jazz Bass neck and vintage frets. The bass plays with incredibly low action and very little relief in the neck. The problem is that the "feel" of playing this bass is very different from my Fenders with bigger size fret wire. It almost feels like a fretless in comparison. Even though the measured action on the Lakland is substantially lower than the Fenders, somehow it feels higher despite being effortless to play, if that makes sense!

I think, as others have alluded to, the quite frankly insane pricing of new German-made Warwick basses has a lot to do with why they have all but disappeared from the UK retail scene compared with say, twenty years ago. In addition to that, though, Warwick are, according to some, a very difficult company for British retailers to deal with. Funnily enough, I remember being at the Bass Centre at Wapping one day back in the early 1990's and a number of the staff, including,I think, the owner, were having an animated discussion about a big falling-out they were currently having with Warwick, for whom they were the UK distributors. So maybe they have a history of being, let us say, individually-minded.

I've been thinking about Wal basses quite a lot lately. I'm of an age where I can remember when they first came out and rapidly became one of [i]the[/i] basses to have for serious players. I remember trying them in shops and being wowed by the sheer power of their basic tone, and the flexibility of the electronics. They were always very special instruments. Since the recent fall in the exchange rate, I've been casting my eye over British-made basses in search of better value for my money than imported basses can offer under the current circumstances. The problem is, with the exception of Wal and Status Graphite, no British builders have any allure for me. And what I can't help but notice is that Wal basses are now proportionately much more expensive than they used to be. In fact, even allowing for inflation, a Mk1 Wal now costs two and a half times as much as one in their heyday of the 1980's. Interestingly enough, in contrast, back in the 1980's, a Status Series 2 bass was substantially more expensive than a Mk 1 Wal. However, the current version of that Status retails for several thousand pounds less than a new Wal. I cannot help but wonder in my idle moments why Status have been able to curtail their pricing whilst Wal have not. I suspect that the new-found cachet that Wal basses have recently been enjoying, for various reasons, plays a big part. The fellow who now makes them can charge whatever he likes and still have a full order-book. Good luck to him, they are fabulous basses, and that is the way of the world. Very limited supply and high demand puts him in a commanding position. From my own point of view, though, much as I would love a Wal bass (and for me it would have to be the classic Mk1 shape) I would balk at the prospect of paying just shy of five grand for one. For me, as someone who remembers the 1980s as if it were yesterday, it's just not a five grand bass.