1976fenderhead

I was thinking one for those gigs where I'm playing in a corner at the pub and 2 for proper stages but 1 sounded so bad I would want to use both anyway, which would be ok because they're so light it's unbelievable! But when I tried Vanderkley (210 or 112) and EBS Neolite (210) with a Little Mark before, they sounded good enough on their own (had to turn down the tweeter on the Vanderkley 210 though). I guess the SL's just aren't strong enough to work isolated...

I actually started with tweeter off, didn't sound great, sounded better with it at default level than off I thought, but still 'wrong'. You mean what rig I have? SWR 350x and Triad cab.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1339613077' post='1691581'] Might be just the particular environment for each test - different speaker voicings, different positioning shifting the cancellation centre frequency around, different absorbing surfaces... [/quote] I thought that too... floor was laminate and the room seemed to have bad acoustics, I tried the TH and a MarkBass with the SL's, an Aguilar DC210 and an SWR GoLight, it never sounded quite right regardless of cab and I almost couldn't recognise these amps from the other testing I did... Anyway, still sounded awesome with the stack so regardless of room acoustics, I know a stack sounds way better than a single so I won't settle for the single now...

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1339611690' post='1691549'] Hmm, thinking.. on a cab raised substantially off the floor you will unavoidably get some cancellation that'd typically affect the low mids - could it be that? Since it's a cancellation node EQ can't compensate for it but moving the cab close to the floor and tilting back would solve this. The ICEpower module in the tonehammer is capable (actually more powerful than that used in the Genz or GK MB500 even though they're rated similar outputs) so I'd be surprised if it didn't work well at 8 ohm. [/quote] Could be, but I also tried it elsewhere with a MarkBass 210 standing on top of another one (unplugged) and it didn't sound at all like this, sounded much better... But when I tried it with a MarkBass 112 on the floor it did sound somewhat like this. I guess it just doesn't go well with a single 12" ?

The big one

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1339607561' post='1691445'] Silly question, but did you try it with the single cab angled more towards your ear and bumping up the bass/low mids a tad? I'd be suprised if there was a noticeable difference in tone from the amp itself run at 8 v 4 ohms (though it is possible) so I'd have though the most likely difference would be the placement in relation to your ear combined with the low/mid frequency coupling. [/quote] When using only one, it was the top one and I was sitting so it was pretty much pointing at my face. If anything when using 2 there was a more direct coupling with the floor adding lows? I also expected there to be only a difference in volume, but the tonal difference was massive, much fuller rounder sound, LOADS more headroom, totally different beast. Best way I can compare it is like the difference between running the Catalinbread SFT in 9v or 18v, but even much more evident and bigger improvement in this case. I then went back to one cab and tried to increase volume and EQ it to get close to the stack sound and couldn't get nowhere near!

Just wondering, has anyone had experience with both? Bands are quite different, Boss one seems a bit better in the chosen mid frequencies, but maybe I'm wrong? Which did you prefer?

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1339605730' post='1691379'] Not heard the Ampeg, Genz or SWR models (though if the headlite could actually do the sizzling HV valve pre thing that the old Redhead etc do so well then that would be great) [/quote] The Headlite didn't sound valve-like to me at all, just very hi-fi with all the EQ and enhancement making very little difference to the default character of it. I didn't spend much time on it because it felt to me like playing to an amp bypassing the preamp section! I tried the TH500 today with a pair of SL112's. Loved the sound playing with 2 of them, didn't like it at all playing with just 1. Would love to get the stack but I can't afford it new, no way. So I'll just keep an eye on the 2nd hand stuff and see what comes up, will hardly find this stack for sale used because it's so new, but MarkBass or TC would be an improvement over what I have too, so if I get good deals coming up on those and nice cabs I might go for them. But I definitely want to get a stack straight away (2x 210 or 2x112 or 1x210 + 1x115) instead of one small cab for now, I was thinking I might be happy with using only 1 small cab in small pubs, and though that would work volume-wise, I always feel there's something lacking tone-wise and am not fully happy with it. 1 big cab would do but I want 2 "halves" for portability.

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1339530280' post='1690099'] If you want to try the TH vs an LMIII through a pair of SL112's then Phil at BassGear can set this up (he has an MB combo in stock which ha the LMIII in it). I am covering for him on Friday and will be in the shop all day It's 45 mins on the train from Paddington and just 2 mins walk from Twyford station. I could bring my AG in as well. It's a full width 19" head but might give you a different perspective on sound. He also has a Carvin BX500 head in stock. Mid sized but weighs sod all and made in USA I think. I haven't had a chance to really try it yet but Phil likes it a lot. [/quote] Thanks Molan, well up for that, but can only do it either tomorrow or Saturday. No need for the AG, thanks. What about those Bag End cabs, any good?

Btw, regarding the LM Tube, also AB'd it with the III. Thought the difference between the 2 preamps in the Tube was very small. Slightly warmer on the tube side but also louder on the highs. It seemed to me that if I increased the highs a bit while set to full solid state I got the same-ish result. Biggest problem seemed to me to be the breakup you start getting pretty low on the gain if you set it to the tube side... It doesn't sound great and I'm sure if I was pushing it live I'd end up turning it full to the solid state side to avoid that breakup, so it would defeat the purpose of having this one over the III...

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1339522067' post='1689885'] I know I've said this before but, just to reiterate, the TH500 absolutely works at its best with the Sl112 cabs in my opinion. I agree it can sound a bit too mid range focussed with some cabs but I don't find this with the SL's. [/quote] Funny you say that, because the TH500 is back in the race. Today I AB'd the RH450 with the LM III. When set flat, the RH450 sounded balanced, while the LM sounded too trebly, which is something I had felt slightly already yesterday when playing it to a Vanderkley 210 (was using a TC BC210 today). But once I played with the EQ on both amps, I usually got a better sound off the LM than I did from the RH450 - could never get quite what I wanted (granted, I wasn't playing with the EQ frequency shifting but still)... So the LM needed more EQ'ing, but sounded better somehow, more direct, more 'forward' than the RH. I mean they're both great amps and I'm sure I'd like having either, but the LM seemed to have a very slight edge... Likewise, though the LM sounds better flat than the TH500, fact of the matter is once EQ'd, in these 3 days of testing I had the most fun with the TH! There's something about its dynamic response that's just unique, and it's the one I found myself just forgetting about the time and that I was AB'ing it with something else and just improvising endlessly, enjoying its sound and getting ideas and inspiration from it. Yes it's a bit middy, but roll back that knob a bit and it's just so pleasurable! PLUS, the drive knob! Most musical and natural breakup of all the amps I tried that try to do that (RH450, LM Tube, Streamliner...). It sounds kind of tubey clean too, which the LM doesn't really... Anyway, either of these 3 would be good. Now I'll stop trying stuff for a bit and look at prices, deals, second hand stuff, etc... And look back at what I played and what I remember, and if I continue to miss the TH500 the most...

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1339448347' post='1688762'] I think before you jump (and don't get me wrong, Markbass is a fantastic choice), my advice is: TC amps sound nothing like Markbass or Genz...at all Genz Shuttle amps (the 3.0 and 6.0) have a high pass filter that takes the low end and cuts it off. They were designed to match with small combo cabs that Genz make, and this prevents failures (a small 1x12/10/8 will only take so much!!). The 9.0, and more so the 6.2, 9.2 and Max .2s have a much fuller low end and a more pleasing voicing. I haven't heard any natural scooped tones from the Genz Shuttle amps set flat. In actual fact they have a high mid bump to my ears...definitely not scooped set flat at all. The Streamliner 600/900 has a very small mid dip which can be put to flat with the use of the mid knob put to 1 ish and the bass to 10 ish. It's and old fashioned EQ section...flat at 12 doesn't really matter. The Markbass amps do sound great all at 12 on the EQ. My problem is that it has become a bass requirement to have this on all amps. Position doesn't matter as long as it sounds great. If I was to buy Markbass I'd stick with the LM2/3 or F500. The Tube series sounds very un-tube like and the Rocker grit isn't very musical... [/quote] All good advice thanks, I will be AB'ing the RH450 today with some MarkBass heads. I think I won't have a chance to try a Shuttle 6.2 but to be honest, I'm pretty sure it will fundamentally have a similar character to the other GB's and they just didn't feel natural to me. They definitely colour and obscure the natural sound of the bass too much and make it sound like well, GB... That may be what some people look for (as with Ampeg I guess) but not me... Funny someone said here SWR users tend to go for MB and it looks like it's happening. Maybe TC will change my preconceived ideas. After all, tuner, compressor, tube emulation, foot-switchable presets, headphone and aux in, all sound very tempting, I almost want the sound to blow me away too

Well then, dramatic turn of events after further testing I did some more playing but this time sticking mostly to flat setting to get the true nature of the amps. Genz Benz is eliminated, because of compression on both the Streamliner and Shuttle (which maybe is better on the Shuttle 6.2, not sure) and also because of that scooped baked in EQ that seems to be their signature sound. I really grew to dislike that today so not really interested in trying the 6.2 due to that philosophy of having such a strong voicing baked in. Feels like cheating to me somehow, as does the compression, like trying to get more volume out of their power, makes me feel they're not as powerful as the numbers say. The Aguilar, though I love it, is off too. Love the Drive breakup thing and the beautiful dynamics, but the sound is a bit too middy, so the problem with this one is doesn't do scooped well. So both GB and Aguilar suffer from lack of flexibility for my intentions. Surprise: Pretty dead set on MarkBass now. The reason why it seemed too flat last time was because I AB'd it quickly with GB and was fooled by that instant GB punch, then didn't go back to it. The Little Mark III is actually very warm and natural, and very, very flexible. Does scooped well, slap tones, aggressive rock tones, classic, modern, the lot... They should get the Little Mark Tube for me to try this weekend and I think one of these will be the one... The fact I didn't like GB makes me think I won't like TC either, as they use similar tricks to simulate valves that by their own admission, compress the dynamics. I also read about reliability issues, knobs breaking etc. Not sure if I feel like driving 1 hour to test it alone, and not being able to AB it with MarkBass at that shop won't help much... But I'll see if I can do it somehow this weekend. I tried a few cabs with the Little Mark III. MB cabs kind of sucked. Vanderkley was good, preferred the 210 to the 112 but had to turn down the tweeter a bit. EBS Neo 210 sounded just right. So what cabs would you advise for this amp, given that I liked Vanderkley and EBS and hated MB? I like that GK ones can tilt up, but worried they'll sound as trebly as their amps!!

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1339287712' post='1686545'] I'll slap and pop a few notes here and there where applicable. And if you're going to do it at all, even if very sporadically, you'd better be good at it. [/quote] That's what I do and my point of view exactly. Plus, I make a point of NEVER being the one who holds the band back, so if I replace a bass player and the band used to play Aeroplane, I'll make sure they don't stop playing it because of the new bass player

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1339356719' post='1687399'] Whereabouts are you? You're welcome to try my TH/AG/SL rig any time. [/quote] Thx mate, very kind offer. I'm in East London though so not that handy

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1339326256' post='1686761'] Markbass ! LMROcker maybe your kind of bag if you like the Streamliner as it has the same kind of input stage as a tube amp, setting the gain to the taste of Od needs, rather than clipping. Although it will still do the nice flat and clean sound aswell. The poweramp in the Littlemarks is a gem aswell. The LMTUBE gives you the harmonically rich and distortion you get from preamp tubes anyway, but the big plus is the preamp blend but I have it either in all tube or 50/50. [/quote] Yeah I have high hopes for the Rocker. Regarding the Tube, what's up with that Balanced Input, what's the point of that?

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1339323121' post='1686722'] There was a brief period when I owned a TF550, AG500 & TH500 and had a good chance to try all three back to back with both a pair of DB112's & SL112's I have to say that I found all three amps to be very good and each had some very distinctive characteristics. Simple summary was that I found the AG the cleanest, the TH the warmest and the TF the most 'coloured' (albeit in a nice way). To my ears the AG sounded best through the DB cabs, closely followed by the TF whilst the TH worked best through the SL's. The SL's worked best for me given the astonishing weight. I do love DB cabs but having something as light as the SL's is a real bonus for me. The AG gave a great clean tone through the SL's as well and I would have kept my original one but it was part of a fully matching chocolate brown rig that I didn't want to split. By chance I've just managed to pick up a black AG to go with my SL's so now I have the option of both the TH & the AG heads I did a bit of an exhaustive test the other week with my favourite four basses and each head. Whilst the TH generally had the edge with the more modern active basses I found that the AG was working brilliantly with passive basses. In fact I felt it made my old '63 Jazz sound better than I've ever heard it! If I had to have just one head I'd stick with the TH but, luckily, at the moment I can afford to keep both [/quote] Thx, great info, again it seems like the SL's area great option if I go with Aguilar...

It's not a musical style, it's just a technique like any other and I want to get better at it, what's wrong with that? If you don't like it and don't want to learn it that's fine, personally I want to [i]choose[/i] not to use it if that's the case instead of not being able to use it due to poor technique. I think it will make me a better bassist even if I won't use it 99% of the time, but that's just me.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1339279672' post='1686402'] Which Genz Shuttle did you try? I'd highly recommend trying the new Shuttle 6.2 and 9.2. [/quote] Yeah, it's on my list, hoping it will be less compressed. My list for amps is a bit like this at the moment: Liked: Aguilar TH500 Genz Benz Streamliner 600 Would like to try: Genz Benz Shuttle 6.2 MarkBass LM Tube MarkBass LM Rocker TC RH450 Eden WTX500