Greg Edwards69

I meant to add. I've used a couple of clip on tuners in the past when they first started becoming main stream and couldn't get on with them. The cheap one just didn't work very well on bass and I replaced it with an intellitouch model. This one worked fine in the shop and at home where it was quiet, but was rubbish at gigs.  It would pick up vibrations in noisy environments and fail to read the lower strings.  

I don't know if clip on tuners are any better for bass these days, but past reliability experience has put me right off. I'd rather plug directly into a tuner any day.

Another vote for the pitchblack.  I had one and it I found it to be excellent. Highly visible and accurate, especially in strobe mode. I only sold it because I needed to sell a few redundant pedals when I bought my Helix.

I sometimes wish I had kept it for home use such as setups. However, I use the Peterson iStroboSoft app on my iPhone/iPad for setups that works just as well as you would expect a Peterson tuner to work.

Another vote for the TC corona mini.  I bought one specifically for the Duff toneprint and with all knobs pointing to 12:00 it definitely had "that sound".  You should be able to find a used one within your budget.

Here's an example of the toneprint. The engineer explains that it's a tri-chorus effect, so that's also worthy of exploration if the TC pedal is out of reach.

In my youth I was dead set against FSO's (Fender shaped objects). I wanted to be different from everyone else I saw toting P and Jazz basses.  I was well aware that some artists and sound engineers stipulated fender basses, which I just put down to laziness. If a sound engineer can work with any guitar brand, then they should be able to work with any bass.  So I played Warwick for a number of years as well as a dalliance with Yamaha RBX basses.

Then I got into Billy Sheehan and realised the Attitude bass with it's dual outputs was the answer to my tonal prayers.  Whislt it's a beast of a bass when routed like that, my tastes and knowledge grew and I realised that just the P pickup on it's own was magical. It just slots into almost any mix and genre perfectly. That was my first, great FSO.  More recently I had the opportunity to try a Squier 50s P.  I fell in love with it. Real, simple  back to basics stuff. So I had to get one of them. Then last year or so I had a hankering for a jazz bass as my band has been expanding our repertoire into more pop, party and disco genres, and and I needed "that sound". After much research, as I'm very particular with certain specs such as neck and weight, I ended up getting a G&L Tribute JB-2 (essentially a jazz bass). It's fast become my number 1 bass, more so than the considerably more valuable Attitude.  So although I still don't own an actual Fender, I've really learnt to appreciate how much Leo Fender got right with his designs. They do "just work".

FWIW, I kept hold of the Warwicks for quite some time unplayed. I had a play shortly before selling them and I really didn't care for the sound of the Thumb at all. it just sounded totally wrong to my ears.

2 hours ago, Franticsmurf said:

First band I was in played a biker rally - it was probably our 4th or 5th gig ever, acquired through a friend. We were naive and had a set of largely originals that with hindsight were not suitable for that kind of gig. We played, they yelled for heavier/faster/rockier songs that they knew. We put all the rock stuff we knew in but we were stopped after about an hour (it seemed like 20 hours 😃). We were expecting to be shown the door and, indeed, we were taken to one side. But they said thanks but it wasn't what they wanted. They got we were new and paid us in full. A decent bunch of guys and gals. 30 odd years later and I've played 'nice' venues with 'nice' audiences and had to put up with far worse behaviour and attitude than that rally.

We played for a Hells Angels chapter last year, got to the end of the set and they asked for more. I started playing the riff to Love Shack for a giggle. Then they asked us to play it. We happily obliged.

I recall playing September by EWF and Disco Inferno at another biker club in amongst the hard rock and metal.  They enjoyed that too.

4 hours ago, Obrienp said:

Seriously though, that puts my gigging problems into perspective! We’ve had the odd drunk but they are mostly peaceful.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, biker clubs and hells angels are a lot less bother than regular pubs for misbehaviour. 

Played at our spiritual band “home” gig at the haystack, Canvey Island last night. It’s nearly always a good one for us with decent support from the punters, patrons, friends and family. 
 

The night went very well, with our usual eclectic mix of rock, pop, disco and party bangers until the very last song of the night when one half of the pub got a bit “flighty”.  Our singer had just finished his kazoo solo in “I’ve had the the time of my life” (yes, really) and suddenly what seemed like a 15 to 20 person brawl started. Tables and chair knocked over, glasses being thrown. Apparently the doorman noticed someone getting shirty, who took offence at said doorman trying to calm him down, so pushed him into someone else and it all got a bit tasty. Blokes and women all getting involved. Finished the song, lights came on, police called and abandoned any thought of doing an encore!

Oh and Punk IPA £6.50 a pint!

Other than that, it was a decent gig. 

2 hours ago, stewblack said:

I suspect my problem is that I like to blend a little of the shifted octave or fifth with the clean sound.

You're right - on its own it's not too bad (just not very clean, a bit wobbly) but when blended with the clean signal it's off pitch so the effect is like a bad chorus.

Gotcha.  Seems like the shifting is a few cents off.  Can this be compensated for in the app, or is the shifting chromatic only?

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Just a note on HPFs - they tend to be deployed far too often with an aggressive cut that impacts the quality of FoH. You are better EQing your monitors to cut the sub - you still want the lower frequencies out front (to a certain extent) - cos otherwise youll find everything starts to become quite harsh.  

Fair play.  We engage the mixing desk's 100hz hpf on each vocal mic and the two guitars. The bass and bass drum are left full range. Seems to work well, sounds clean and clear without harshness, and prevents the low end feedback we had previously been plagued with.

1 hour ago, stewblack said:

https://on.soundcloud.com/DyD7T

Perhaps I'm not as discerning as I thought I was. That wasn't as terrible as I expected.

On 17/07/2022 at 12:10, stewblack said:

Hi Greg. Put very simply the pitch shift alters the sound and puts it out of tune.

It literally doesn't work. I'll record an example for you if you like. It's an area Mooer struggles with, I have a pitch shift pedal of theirs which similarly can't do it.

Everything else is great. Seriously, the drive sounds are to die for. I found an always on dirt sound which gives that little bit of grit needed to cut through in the mix with no tone sacrifice.

There is a fraction of a delay with the pedal. A deal-breaker for many I suspect, but not enough to bother me. 

 

Would you mind recording an example of the pitch shift effect, if you have the time?  An example of simulating BEAD tuning with a typical EADG tuned 4 string P or J bass would be helpful. It may be acceptable enough to me for practice at home, even if it's not gig worthy.  The only device I have with a pitch shifter (not counting a laptop with software simulations) is my Helix, that to be frank, it a PITA to drag out for spontaneous practice.

On 07/09/2022 at 23:17, Jack said:

I think that you know this but just for the benefit of anyone reading: the problem with low end on stage, power alley and comb filtering etc isn't to do necessarily with a subwoofer, it's just having low end in the pa. If you have a top that goes all the way down you're still going to have the same problem. 

I must admit I didn't know that, and didn't think of it like that, but it does make an awful lot of sense. If I understand you correctly, having low end in the PA and on stage results in a clash of frequency mess.  So it's better to favour one or the other.   However, my original comment was thinking that having tons of sub-bass frequencies on the stage can cause all sorts of problems, such as reverberating a hollow stage and bleeding into the vocal mic (particularly if you have a basic desk without hpf's on the mic channels).

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

I guess the nice thing about the Bergantino design was that rear facing back speaker is low down and also not pointing at the vocal mics - not dissimilar to stage monitors in that sense, although it lacks the ability to independently control the rear facing volume which a stage monitor gives and that would be s a big disadvantage. The market clearly didn't take too kindly to them as I think the HG series may have already been discontinued.

I would assume the advantage of the rear facing bass speaker in that cab is for wall/corner interaction. We already know that putting a bass cab near a wall can increase perceived low end. I guess making the speaker face the wall increase this even more.  Otherwise, I guess it could be useful for the drummer to hear, if your cab is a bit forward of the drums.

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Appreciate IEMs would be another solution - but not all musos seem to like using IEMs. Certainly true of the drummer in one of my bands, so the Behringer mini monitor might be a nice solution for him and I know some bass players miss the "feel" of bass when there's no backline.

We haven't really got our IEM system up to snuff. We've only got a cheap wireless Gear4music branded one.  It's fine for vocals, and guitars, but get a mushy when the bass kicks in which disappears in the mix. It's simply because it's a cheap system with a cheap compander. One of the guitarists has an inexpensive Behringer P2 wired IEM adapter. Much, much better sound. We're considering getting a few of these and headphone distributer for those of us at the back of the stage and let the two lead singers use the wireless system out front.  The drummer would definitely be okay using a wired IEM.

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

So I guess the other obvious approach for bass monitoring would be a little backline bass combo for stage bass and let the PA speakers do the heavy lifting for FoH. 

Like my band, without a sub, I think it's the easiest solution. Even if I use a higher quality IEM and ditch the on stage guitar frfr speakers, I would be reluctant to forgo a bass speaker on stage. As we've established earlier in this thread, in lieu of a sub, I feel it helps fill out the low end lost by putting the FOH speaker up on poles.

With a sub, and without IEM, a small combo pointed at you could work as well.  In a small venue such as a pub, having a gobs of subbass low end filling up the stage can cause all sorts of issue, and as I say, the low end from the PA is omnidirectional, so you only need to hear the mids and top end.

FWIW, I use a hpf in my helix to ensure I have enough low frequencies to help the sub-less FOH speakers, but not so much that it floods the stage with uncontrollable boomy mud.

11 hours ago, Al Krow said:

But bands use backline speakers all the time, which will be "muddying" the on stage sound? 

 

I could see this working really well as a FoH bass speaker and the rear facing cab providing a dedicated bass monitor. Could be neat! 

True, but backline speakers aren't generally pointed at the vocal mic. Well, not unless you bring an 8x10 to the dog'n'duck.

I do like the idea of a line array pointing back at the band however. They're generally less prone to feedback and since low frequencies are omnidirectional, you don't need full range pointing back at you. But you still run the risk of the vocal mic's picking them up unless speakers and mics are very carefully placed.  TBH the Mackie/Behringer mini monitor designs work just as well for this purpose. Our drummer uses one in preference to IEM and still keeps the stage volume down because he can have it much closer to him than a side fill.

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

 

I was going to say put it at the end of the song!

That's a viable solution if you have the lyrics view open. But sometimes, I literally just have the set list only view on my phone.

FWIW, I have made a feature request to add custom colours to the pause names to flag important instructions.

3 hours ago, neepheid said:

 

I've done that before.  That's why there's annotations on the set list along the lines of "TUNE BACK UP TO E FFS!"  

Good idea. But we don't use paper set lists anymore, it's all managed through band helper. I can add a note to that effect on the following songs, but we don't always play the same songs in the same order.

You've gotten me thinking though. I may make a feature request to add notes between songs in the setlist.

EDIT: Just gone into the app and realised I can already do this with "pause names".  I'm going to add these right this second!

13 hours ago, dmccombe7 said:

Had a bad mistake last week doing Into the Valley by Skids. Bass E string detuned to D for it. Bass starts and after a couple of bars the guitar joins in for another 2 bars. That was fine until i went to the  next line a bar early causing the guitarist to get lost and the drummer couldn't come in with his cues. At one point myself and guitarist were on different bars, he stopped and i just kept playing the intro riff until they came back in. That's the worst start i've had in  many years. Some of the audience who had been drinking a fair bit said to me at the end of the night that they thought i was having a wee bass solo 😂

Happy days but it's live music and sometimes things go a little astray 😀

Dave

 

I had a similar drop D issue earlier this year. I downtuned the E string to D for Summer of 69 and forgot to retune it afterwards when Sweet Child O'Mine kicked in.  Nothing like transposing on the fly to keep you alert!

FWIW, I have a hipshot xtender on one of my other basses, but I haven't gotten around to installing one on the bass I was using that night. Otherwise, it would have been a non issue.

1 hour ago, Obrienp said:

I’ve had my SM58 pick up my cab off-axis and cause a rumble through the PA. The low cut filter helps (if you have one on your channel strips).

This. We engage the low cut (hpf) on every mixer channel part from bass guitar and bass drum. It cleans up excessive low end picked up in vocal mics a treat. 
 

A good parametric eq pedal can help that “one loud note” issue that plagues bassists in certain size rooms. Find one with an hpf and it’s even more useful in challenging rooms. A note of caution, be careful notching out excited frequencies if your backline fills the room, what sounds awful on stage may be fine out front.

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

You'd kinda think/hope that vocalists would be providing band PAs as they are the ones who need it the most? Nope - haha! 

 

And, yup, we bass players do seem to end up being the sound guy! Although after a lengthy campaign I managed to persuade the drummers in both my bands to get onto PA duties, as they needed to be driving anyway with their kits.

I think bass players tend to be the most knowledgeable when it comes to sound, as it's usually us that are affected the most from environmental acoustic anomalies and have to work harder to wrangle a decent tone out of our rig without it turning to mush or causing low end feedback etc. We're the only ones (apart from possibly keys) with a truly full range instrument.

1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

Reading the lower than E notes would stuff me but I could get it out if it wasn't too fast. Moderately fast with fire, maybe not.

Reading bass clef outside of the stave stuffs me.  I played clarinet in my formative years so spent most of my sight reading time in the treble clef. Even when I played keyboard and tinkled on the piano the bass clef would completely confuse me.  I've been playing bass a lot, lot longer but still haven't got my bass clef sightreading ability up to scratch.

24 minutes ago, CJPJ said:

I tried a ETB on Sunday in GuitarGuitar and I was blown away. It has so much low end and such a lovely overall sounds and feel.

I had a Tokai TB years ago. Looked great, sounded great and lovely neck. But boy was that thing big and unwieldly.  If the OP is considering one, I'd recommend trying one in person before committing, and preferably on a strap.

But I second the Squire 50s P recommendation. Lovely bass to play with a different flavour of 'P'. 

If the OP is a P guy that fancies a Jazz, I'd recommend giving the G&L JB2 (Tribute) a look as well. Chunky jazz neck, jazz electronics in a smaller P bass sized body.

He's a little over-enthusiastic to watch for me, but Ian Allison's synth run down video is super helpful for building synth sounds with stomps

Welcome to the forum.  I find it's a nicer place to discuss all things bass and bass related than that other place where people 'talk bass'. Your expertise and connections will be very valuable here.

Could you kindly get on to the powers that be and remind them that bassists love modelling as much as guitarists, and please produce a line 6/ampeg bass powercab frfr and a yamaha variax bass.

Just kidding, but that would make me a very happy bassist.

1 hour ago, Paul S said:

Exactly so - earplugs to attenuate the volume.  Or, in my case, I use my app. to reduce the volume of my hearing aids.

 

Our set up came to £2K on the nose - 2 x EVOX 8s, a new desk, leads etc.  I bought it and the other guys pay me a depreciation cost each year - working on the stuff losing half it's value over 3 years, they each paid me £110 a year.  Coming up to 3 years now, so then they'll pay me £55 a year for 3 more years, assuming I am still alive and gigging.  When you look at it that way it isn't much.

Nicely done, although I can't afford to get a pair of them right now. However, I see Andertons are offering 9 months interest free.  Even between the 6 of us as a band purchase (guitarist's dad sound man not included) it only works out at £25 each per month - even less if he wanted in on it. Obviously there's cheaper monthly payments for longer with interest.  If someone decided to leave the band, the rest of us could simply buy their share at market used rate.

FWIW I note the original Evox 8 is marked as "archived" on RCF's website. It appears the lighter, but plastic Evox J8 has superseeded it.

Heck, they even make a protection cover with wheels and trolley handle!

16 hours ago, Al Krow said:

I guess it stems from different venues. Agreed in a pub if you could have a backline PA that would be a really neat set up with no need to faff around with monitors or IEMs.

 

But in large auditorium venues the band likely wouldn't want to have the full venue volume blaring at them as backline on a regular basis?!

Depending on the size of venue you're thinking, a good set of earplugs would sort that out. It certainly seems easier than IEMs.

The idea of having a pair of these set at the back of the stage, replacing FOH speakers, guitar and bass frfr speakers and monitors/IEM sounds like a wonderful idea. It would solve so many issues. Heck we could use just one for guitars, keyboard and bass with a mini mixer at rehearsals, or vocals as well with a larger mixer. And I realise they're not lightweight, but it's less gear to transport.

I seriously considering looking at a good finance option to split the cost between the band. It's certainly a viable alternative to getting a sub and IEM solution. Perhaps I'll have a chat with the guitarist whose dad own the PA. He's not a young man anymore and I don't know how much longer he'll want to do this for.  Perhaps he might consider selling the Yamaha's if we got these.