Al Krow

Couldn't possibly comment. Given that I'm not in one, surely that would be trolling...trolling, trolling down the river...? Although I'm sure @Dad3353 would approve of us all leaving a good job in the City to spend our time doing that?

Nah, I think the consensus on this thread is that we're not. Phew!! Although there's nothing like marking our own homework, is there? 😄 More seriously - there's been some corking discussion/comments along the way and I've learned a thing or two about the freedom to be playing covers without having any obligation to pay to do so, whilst flagrantly nicking other people's original material, as a performer. Guess I'd best get onto learning some of the new covers material my band's agreed to try out at our rehearsal on Thurs...

As you say the world doesn't work that way and while it might seem at first blush to be fairer, it wouldn't really incentivise creating stuff that other people want as opposed to what we would like to spend our time doing. So someone designing a crap <whatever> but sold once would get paid the same as someone who came up with something that others find amazing and everyone wants. Having said that, when you imply that our time on this blessed rock is the most precious thing we have...well no argument from me about that whatsoever, I am also of that view; just wish I had come to that realisation much, much sooner!

Good shout. In 10 years of doing paid covers gigs, I've never been asked once for a set list from the venue. Sounds to me that none of them are paying PRS fees. Also clearly not worthwhile for the PRS to actually enforce this either?

Sorry, I was back home at 2am this morning from a function/covers gig in the Midlands last night which was a huge amount of fun and very decently paid, so I wasn't able to jump in to comment earlier. Some great posts on here already! Loved the phrase from @DCS222 that "You are the sound track to their well earned time off" Wow - this thread has been worthwhile for that comment alone. @Norris - yes absolutely right, it's an incendiary title. But no apologies, mate - obviously pop/rock music was never meant to ruffle any feathers or cause anyone to think about what we're actually doing, haha?! But why raise the question at all given that I'm the BL / founder of my own pretty active covers band? Well tbh I was a little annoyed about the pomposity that we covers/function band players can sometimes have when looking down at struggling original musicians, and this post in particular: Did it make you laugh? It made me think that the first three categories only have any work because they are effectively stealing the material of writers of original material. Yes Elvis did covers, but I bet he paid royalties. Dolly Parton is super happy that Whitney covered her song. But I bet none of us on BC are paying a paying a penny to make use of other people's material? Also true of most DJs I would have thought)? Aren't we therefore being parasites of sorts? @Pirellithecat Shakespeare wrote his plays to be performed and they are, in any case, maybe a year or two out of copyright by now. Similarly Bach/Beethoven/Mahler etc and classical music orchestras. But did the Killers write Mr Brightside for others to incessantly play? Maybe they're actually cool because they are getting free air time and there is something incredibly heart warming about writing something that then gets played all around the world? I wouldn't know. And maybe we should change our band name to LA Nik-Tracks or The Tapeworms.

What say you the collective BC hive-mind? Would you say the same about a well known artist covering a track and making it their own?

Bill some very useful points there, thank you. Just picking up on one point if I may - given the consensus is that the main benefit from using a sub is to enhance the kick drum which is typically going to be in the 50Hz to 80Hz range, why should it matter if there is a cancellation notch centred at 42Hz? Ok I appreciate that is very close to the fundamental of the low E string on bass but a lot of us will be HPF'ing our basses below 80Hz, in any case, to deliberately avoid a boomy low end, and certainly wouldn't want the 40Hz region to be being boosted by the sub.

But is it fair to say if you're dispensing with floor monitors altogether because you're using IEMs, and also using just one sub rather than two eg because that's all the size of the venue warrants or your budget/boot space allows (delete as applicable), then the phased source cancellation is another thing you don't need to worry about? At which point does it not become a choice of: do want the additional bass reinforcement by placing your sub adjacent to a wall, or do you prefer a neater floor footprint and more stable top placement by mounting your top above the sub? And if the latter is a significant step up over not having a sub at all, have you pretty much not hit bull's-eye by doing so? Just asking for a fellow darts player I know.

That makes sense with unfamiliar kit. On the other hand if you're using the same desk and PA, you'll have a pretty good idea of what settings work for your band and can use that as the starting point, so you're not having to reinvent the wheel each time, and can then tweak it for the venue.

Agreed that having wireless kit does make for an easier process as you can hear the full band including yourself up front. We will get the sound as good as we can during sound check, but either the singer or myself, who both have wireless, will wander out front and have a listen during the set to double check. There's often more energy and volume to the band during the live set compared to the sound check, which can affect the balance.

I do have to agree with you. We were playing at a function gig recently going through the DJ's PA set up: he had two RCF 705s with tops on poles directly above. Can't recall our band sounding better overall - we normally don't use subs. I particularly loved the drums and audience were loving it / very complimentary. And, in practice, you're never going to be able to A/B your set up because it will only be truly compared once the audience is there absorbing your sound waves - hugely different to an empty venue as we all know. I think tbf from some of Bill's recommendations (eg paying someone to be sound engineer at gigs), he's coming at this from the more pro end of the market. We're doing pretty well as a band, but certainly wouldn't be able to afford to bring a sound engineer on board for our gigs. I totally recognise the much greater expertise from Bill and others when it comes to this stuff - it's just that it won't necessarily translate into the semi-pro or hobbyist band set up many of are involved with. So if it works and works well, I'd say crack on! Perfection can be the enemy of the good. And a neater, potentially more secure set up taking up less floor space will often trump a marginal improvement in sound quality. If it means you're using a sub to enhance the kick that's likely to be a noticeable improvement to your sound, certainly in larger venues, than not having one at all.

If they also sound 100% (or even 70%!) as good, I guess that works...

In which case putting it against a wall ain't ever really going to be a thing then? 😁

Well I guess if they're pants they can serve as a spare set for our guitar deps 😅

Crossover of 110 Hz? Your point is probably, however, fair even if your vocal mic is responsive only down to 80 Hz. But as you say it is the kick, which is benefiting most from the sub, and kick drum mic position viz the sub would have been a likely culprit. The low-end stage bleed is going to be more range dispersed as well, agreed?

But if you're putting subs behind the mics in order to have them close to a wall you can get awful low end feedback.

AliExpress seem to have a deal on at the moment offering the Sennheiser IE300 for around £40. Feels more than a little too good to be true, but at that price worth a punt. I'll maybe see if I can meet up with @dave_bass5 to A/B these against his IE100 and IE400 to see if they are even remotely the genuine article!

This was quite a helpful A/B The AS16s seem more rounded/balanced less harsh than the ZS10 Pro but lose some of the detail.

Oh I agree that being BL brings a bunch of additional responsibilities, and it would be very nice to be more of a passenger and just turn up well prepared to play at rehearsals and gigs, for sure. But maybe it's the better option than not being in a band at all, if that's the only realistic alternative, which I'm pretty sure would be true in my case and seems to be the experience for a few of us who are no longer in our 20s and 30s?

Thanks very much for this - I'm looking to get something that is a step up from my KZ ZS10 Pros, which I agree are a little harsh having gigged with then regularly for 6 months or so. So I will be putting the KS AS16 Pro on the shortlist. I've maybe a budget of up to £150 - grateful for those of you who have previously upgraded from the KZ ZS10 Pros to share where you ended up? @dave_bass5 where have you landed with your own research into these?

Yeah, I'm sure I would be in the exact same position Andy. I guess my workaround has been to take the lead in putting together the covers bands I've been in. PS the JMB age demographic can then actually work in reverse - I tend not to bother considering anyone under 30, haha. And 40+ y/os are very welcome!

Is your current band covers or originals and, before your drummer left, were you regularly gigging and, if so, were they decently paid gigs? Just trying to figure out what might be behind the drummer drought you're facing - as you say in London it shouldn't be too hard to find someone, but an originals outfit still in its start-up phase is usually going to be a harder sell than a regularly gigging covers band doing decently paid gigs.

@Silvia Bluejay another one to move to the PA sub-forum please.

Happy to be educated on this! 🙂