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[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1442926639' post='2870589'] Which is why it can be hard to get your foot in the door. [/quote] While it's hard, it also means bands trying to make money should be trying to get their foot in many doors. Blue

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1442861382' post='2870109'] Well, that depends on the gig ! [/quote] What I meant was there are some guys that don't like any kind of gig, they do not like the whole idea of being on stage performing in front of people.It does absolutely nothing for them. Blue

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1442830249' post='2869709'] +1 The reason I learnt to play an instrument was so I could join a band and gig. [/quote] Well, yeah exactly. when me and my guys were like 12-13 back in the 60s. Being in a band was one of the first big things you could do on your own with the neighborhood guys. We all loved rock & roll we wanted to play get out and have fun gigging. We wanted to dress cool, be cool and get the attention of the ladies and rock & roll was the way to get there. Playing somewhere was a big deal. Some, like me, and here it is 50 years later never lost the enthusiasm and excitement for gigging. Like right now, I can't wait to play my shows this Friday & Saturday night. Some guys come into or came into *rock & roll" music differently, maybe older and a different generation. And depending on how you got into this impacts your view on gigging and being in a band. I just can't imagine it's as exciting as it was back in the mid 60s, maybe it is, I don't know. Blue * Do you guys know that there are 18 year olds over here in the States that are not familiar with the term "Rock & Roll? To me that is scary. * The pic is from 1969, looks like I was playing a Gibson EB-O through an SVT back then.

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1442782688' post='2869502'] I read the posts on this thread and realise that I've had a [i]hugely[/i] different experience of gigging, on and off, for 25 years to many here. Just shows you that everyone gigs for different reasons and with different expectations. [/quote] There are some guys that just don't like gigging. To each his own, However that is something I will never understand. Gigging is fun. Blue

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1442781565' post='2869488'] Maybe , but your not the person booking the bands , it's them that should know ! [/quote] True, usually it's younger guys coming in already smashed before they start playing, cheap faulty un-gig worthy gear and not enough good material to hold a crowd. Blue

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1442734833' post='2868997'] I've come across this, how hard is it to check up on a band? surely a few phone calls to other venues would do it, or even the bands gig list gives a vital clue to how well they're thought of if you know what the other venues are like in your area, and that's without even getting up off your arse and actually going to look at bands play live, [/quote] You can't research every aspect of a band, but if you can't find a solid gigging history on the bands web-site, you might not want to book them. Blue

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1442733763' post='2868990'] I think though that there are plenty of places trying to book bands that don't even research the bands they are booking, they end up paying cheap , getting mediocre and the punters feeling non-plussed . then it goes downwards in ever decreasing circles , even if they hit on a decent band there is no-one left going to the venue. [/quote] I can spot amateurs from the second they enter to load in. I can also spot those that treat every gig like the pros they are. You come in with a professional protocol. Blue

[quote name='bassist_lewis' timestamp='1442755145' post='2869223'] I think one of the key differences between those who don't give up and those that do - excluding personal choice and injuries - is that they got in with the better/busier players in town, which leads to better gigs and opportunities, which gives you motivation to do more. I've played with a lot of sub-standard musicians because I wasn't moving in the' good musician' circles at the time. Because I powered through, learned from my mistakes and orchestrated a few situations in my favour, I am now a far more in-demand player. I guess it depends how much bull$#£ you can put up with - hint: it's a lot - and also how self-aware you are. Luck may also play some part in it too... [/quote] Yes, to all that. All of the guys that I know that gave up were good musicians, but never found themselves or did not have the ability to find lucrative gigging bands that would give them exposure and experience to understand what it takes and what it's like to be compensated financially for the investment to playing and skill they acquired. Their excuse is usually, [i]"I never really wanted to be in a band". [/i]Maybe that's true or maybe it's BS[i].[/i] Blue

From what I have read there are business and cultural differences between our 4 hour bar gigs and your 2 hour pub gigs. Culturally it's the hours,over here 4 hours is all we know and we think nothing of it. It seems like playing 4 hours doesn't fit the traditional pub business model. Playing 4 hours is not a big deal. Blue

Small bar, 4 hour gig. The kind of gig I love. Small but the place stayed packed the whole night. The band was on all 6 cylinders, very responsive & appreciative crowd. Blue

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1442566976' post='2867791'] Agree about setting a limit, though that limit is going to change from band to band and area to area. I was looking into getting a booking at a pub near me that I thought would suit the new band I joined earlier this year. Spoke to a mate at the weekend who's played there a few times and apparently they have a flat rate of £150 irrespective of who you are. No wonder they get a lot of trio acts there. The other 3 members would be driving around 45-50 min each way to do it, I'm not going to bother pursuing it. [/quote] Travel is a factor, we have a few customers where it's a 2 hour drive one way, but our fee goes up to $1,500.00. I'll be honest, I got spoiled this summer with those 2k gigs for playing 1.5 hours. For a bar band guy that's sweet money. Blue

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1442574501' post='2867893'] I think that you may have a point there BUT the UK's licensing laws and British drinking habits mean that not many landlords would want to have a band playing for 3 or 4 hours. They certainly would not want to pay extra! Also, a landlord is only interested in whether a band can pull in punters and assist him to sell beer! He doesn't care how many people are in the band and will understandably pay the same for a three piece as he will for an equally popular seven piece band... [/quote] I see where Pete's coming from. Over here, established with a following can make all the difference in the world. We know and our customers know when we play we are going to draw punters that don't normally patron their club and they are going to sell more premium alcohol. The bar band business is tough for new acts over here. Say a new band plays a bar and the crowd is week and alcohol sales are weak. Chances are that band is not going to get asked back or re-booked. And re-book is really the name of the game when your band is trying to make money and stay in business. Blue

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1442583381' post='2867992'] I'm not even sure how much a lot of the audience would want a band to be on for that time over here either, slightly different culture. I usually associate these long sessions with tourist places where you have people just drifting in and out rather than a captive audience. Pubs do have an element of 'floating' visitors but it's not the bulk of punters in recognised British music pubs. [/quote] Thing is, in our circuit, most of the bars we play have built up a reputation as a live music venue. So, it makes a big difference when the clientele comes there to hear a live band. Where it can get dicey is when you take a gig at a bar not necessarily known to have bands.Then it's a hit or miss proposition. Normally it's a miss. Blue

[quote name='cybertect' timestamp='1442588991' post='2868057'] From my (admittedly limited) experience of watching bands play in bars in Chicago, DC and Virginia, the standard of musicianship in the US is considerably higher than it is in their equivalents in the UK. I've usually put that down to the fact that they are playing much long sets together and consequently 'putting in the time'. As a casual, corollary observation: it does seem that US audiences are much more [i]into[/i] the idea of watching a band play live in a pub/bar than most I've experienced in the UK, certainly round London and the South East*. Americans do seem to be more inclined to dance at the drop of a hat and actually engage with what's going on on stage rather than hiding in a corner with their pint and talking over the music, or standing at the back of the venue with their arms folded and an 'entertain me, then, I dare you' look on their faces. Of course, it's possible there's a bit of a positive feedback loop here: better bands make people more inclined to dance, etc. * from the times I've played north of the border, Scottish audiences are generally more responsive. I am, however, amazed at the low rates of pay all that time put in generates if this is typical [/quote] Yeah, nobody playing bars, no matter who you are is getting more than $100.00 per man. Last weekend we did a rare 3 hr gig and I walked away with $120.00 but that extra 20 was from the tips we split up. It's a cultural thing tip jars are completely acceptable here for bar gigs. Dancing is strictly a ladies game. If the place is packed with ladies and they're drunk, they're gonna dance. Guys, don't dance so much. Blue

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1442564366' post='2867750'] Basically you can test the market as much as you like but it all depends on whether you are perceived as value. Some pubs around here have a ceiling but that is as much to do with their years rosta as it is the bands, IMO. Some bands have a great night and then fail for no real reason...the date may clash with something or just be a poor night and the LL/venue has to take it on the chin. This is why they'll want to level out fees... good nights sub bad nights. I get that, so I'll offer a band at £250 min and they can pay a premium if we do well... But in a game of hard ball, everyone has to be able to stand by their bottom line and you may loose out. The struggling full time guy might have to take that £60..altho he really wants £80. Their call. But I think £350 is the target to aim for in pubs and those pubs are the target gigs....but you have to be worth it. It doesn't matter so much how you are worth it..(I put a premium on the bands ability myself)... but if all your mates rock up and the band is awful..then that is fair play too as you've 'earnt' your money... As far as the LL/Venue is concerned. Not sure I like the rates in U.S bars for 4 hrs or so... so stuff that. This is a conversation I'll have with my mate in Orlando..as he has done gigs both here and there. I'll see what bar bands are..? pro rata, UK pubs play better/more..?? [/quote] I guess it can vary from State to State or depends on the bars you pay. All the venues we play are 80% existing business ,so they know were a $500.00 minimum band.They also know they make money when were booked.But it took 9 years to build the business. We didn't start out this way right out of the chute. Blue

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1442531032' post='2867676'] Nope, I give up. Why..? [/quote] I think some guys get older and out grow it, it's no longer fun. Certain life circumstances can bring it to a halt. And the worse one are the guys that never find the right band and have a history of bad band experiences. Blue

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1442528911' post='2867662'] Just goes to show that there are differences in pub gigs in different parts of the UK, yet alone between here and the US. I assume that you are based in a far more affluent part of the country than me, but round here punters would (unfortunately) not be interested in paying on the door for a pub gig, although they might accept a modest hike on the price of a pint. Of course, people will pay to see semi-name acts in a club (usually tributes or genre based acts) but not in a pub. Also, no landlords round here would consider paying £350 for a pub gig – the economics of it would just not be sustainable. But then again that might be because I’m living in a less affluent area. I have certainly been paid that much in pubs in other parts of the country, but that was generally as it was a special event / the fact that the gig was promoted as a non-local band playing. I think that the 2x45 sets plus a 15 minute encore pub gig is more a reaction to UK licensing laws / drinking culture. Certainly gigs in northern Europe follow the American model where bands are expected to play for anything from 2 ½ to over 4 hours. However, they do tend to pay better and bands seem to be more highly valued by bar owners. [/quote] While we get our share of the good festival & fair gigs in the Summer were are still classified as a regional bar band. Here's the deal for all of our bar gigs and I have 2 this weekend; 1. 4 hours with two 15 minute breaks 2. $100.00 a man minimum ( we won't turn the key for less) Festival Gigs have been paying some really groovy bread; 1. 1.5 hrs, no break 2. Sound and lights provided 3. $500.00 a man Over here the only places that charge a cover are what I call the [i]"$5.00 back room"[/i] and those are originals bands clubs. Our thing or part of our mission statement is we don't want people to have to pay to see us. Just buy lots of premium alcohol drinks. And I don't want to paint any kind of glamorous picture here. Pete will tell you, this is a real [i]"hustle"[/i] and not for everyone. Blue

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1442220518' post='2865155'] Band played good but for me, hated it. Been a heavy few days. Thursday, live band recording at France Bleu radio, Saturday, wedding anniversary gig, home at 2.30 am Sunday morning, up at 7.00 am, 70km drive to sound-check and play at 11.30 am. Leave there at 13.00, 230km drive to afternoon / evening gig and then 160km drive home. It's not fun anymore. [/quote] Interesting, for me, when I have 3 gig busy weekends, that's like being in heaven for me. As long as the pay is acceptable. Blue.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1442482800' post='2867234'] I wont treat it as a job until it pays me the same salary. But I treat it as seriously as anyone.... which is why I insist it must be right. It must be of the right quality and we must do the right shows/gigs. Generally my name is decent and people know if I am involved and committed... which I'll tell them that I am or not... then that is enough for them to make their decision. I'm kind of pleased that if I want to 'sell' something.. plenty of people will listen. But to do this...IMO, you need to sift through some gigs and not bother with them. I'd rather they came to a gig that cost £10 a ticket..where we could do things properly and spend correctly to improve the show.. than a pub date. But the right pub date is also important... the music is capable of being the same level, it is just that we treat it as a loss leader. But there needs to be a balance... I don't think you 'waste' your product on too many pub dates as those same 'punters' will ask what the difference is between that and a ticketed event. This is why parties are better...because the money is treble/quadrupled and you aren't responsible for getting the audience. The next trick is getting the party money up to wedding money without the wedding faff... So, because it isn't my main job, I'm VERY picky about the quality of the gig..in every respect and I have no worries about whether we are worth the money. I do my homework. [/quote] As I mentioned before regarding gigs. When your fans start showing up where ever your playing the number of bad gigs start to diminish. I really dig it when we have a 2 or 3 gig weekend and we have the same fans that come to all 3. Off topic, from What I have learned from you guys. I think our bar gigs in the States might be an upgrade from pub gigs. Blue

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1442446470' post='2867105'] You've edited your post since I first read it and added some things I'll comment on. Age is an attitude. You carry it off very well. I guess you dye your hair but as far as an audience are concerned you move and rock and carry it off with attitude and from 20ft you're the same as the other guys. But you're old enough to know when someone knows what they're talking about and not just bull....img. You know when to let go and trust someone else. That's not just an age thing, that's a maturity thing. The easy route is to play Beatles and Stones to people your own age. It works, but for me that was three years of my life that I really enjoyed but I've moved on. I've done three years in my latest band - Classic Rock, we're getting gigs and people are asking us to play more so I'm happy living in this moment. But again - it's flexibility and commitment. When I'm bored or it stops working I'll move on. I have no idea what I'll move on to. Just as long as it is entertaining to an audience (just not corporate functions, they don't pay enough for me to give up my day job and sell my soul ) [/quote] Hey thanks, You know, I still can't believe how lucky I am. Finding a band that makes good money playing the same 70s style hard rock and blues I grew up with and played back in the 60s & 70s. And lead by a 29 year old lead guitarist, singer song writer. We get a really nice response to the material we present. Stuff like [i]"Street Corner Talking"[/i] Savoy Brown and [i]"Oh Well"[/i] by your Peter Greene to name a few. BTW, were bring back "Along The Watch Tower"(Hendrix Version). Just stuff that's really fun to play and you can always mix it up as a bass player and making the bass lines hip and groovy. I think because we gig a lot people think were a traditional cover band. No, they just did a great job of figuring out this 60 plus niche market. A lot of the 60 plus folks are out there still trying to party. My hair, I have had it professionally dyed since I was 40. I would imagine it's all grey now. Blue

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1442416146' post='2866814'] For me...I have to like it and rate it..otherwise it is a job [/quote] I joined my band for years ago because it was a job, a paying job. Not wishing well of creativity. Now, while it's a job, it's a very fun job. Blue

[quote name='lowhand_mike' timestamp='1442425379' post='2866901'] I'd love to be playing a gig a week (the wife wouldnt) but thats not going to happen as we just cant get our promotional sh*t together. So if anyone has any advice on actually getting gigs (and we have been asked why we arent playing more places(which is nice)) that would be cool [/quote] We play around 75 shows a year. but that's mainly existing business getting new business is what's tough for most gigging bands. We finally breaking into the local Harley Davidson hierarchy. You guys do know Harley is headquartered here in Milwaukee. They sponsor a sh*t load of events. Blue

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1442389129' post='2866494'] Ideally you want guys who can put a set together without needing too much rehearsing... [/quote] Yes, exactly and especially for bands that have been together with the same members for years.. If your lucky enough to be booked Fri-Sun, you don't want to schedule a rehearsal. I always say, just que the breaks and tell me what key your in and I can pick up on and follow the chord progression. Easy to do for 70s style blues/rock. Blue

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1442402839' post='2866644'] But you and Blue are looking at this from different points of view. You're running a band and he is 'just' a hired hand. From my point of view having been in both situations it's nice to just turn up and play what you're told to play. Put your trust in the band leader. I'm very flexible, I've played in everything from Thrash metal bands, through party bands and am dram pit work. To me a song is a song, most of them are 3minutes long and don't take hours to learn. Really it's all about being entertaining and playing live for me. From a band leader point of view, I'd want people like me. That can learn quickly, don't moan that it's a boring song that's been done to death, or that they're not getting as much this week as last week etc. I kind of agree that a band doesn't really work as a free democracy but really has to be run as a benevolent dictatorship, or as a strict democracy with an elected leader who has the final say on everything. [/quote] Yes, your right about all that. It get back to that knowing what you want and what your skills are. In other words, what can I deliver. I know I'm not a band leader or front person. I sing and play bass. Hell, I don't even like calling songs. We have a band leader for all that stuff. Our band leader is half my age and you know what I finally realized and came to terms with. While I have years of band experience, her experience is more relevant than mine. It's 2015, for efs sake ,you can't do things or run a band like it was 1975. BTW, I been gigging with my 51 MIJ Fender P re-issue lately. I took that black pick guard off. I think it looks a lot cooler without it. I also started bringing a combo to small gigs instead of my big GK stacked rig. I can use the shoulder strap for my pedal board case, bass in one hand and the combo in the other. That's a 1 trip "load in" for me. I love it. Blue

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1442340774' post='2866245'] This is really a question for those regularly gigging bands that carry their own PA. As someone who used to organise the sort of gig you refer to I found fixing everything down was essential to a quick handover. All the leads were colour coded to so if one of the bands swapped a mic or a lead I could spot it from FOH. Fortunately I've never had to play at this sort of event. [/quote] We carry our own lighting and sound with a sound person. However we hardly ever play multi bill shows. Blue