Mikey R

Good stuff! Let me know.

It's time to move on some of the pedals I no longer use. This one I used on the intro to Wish You Were Here, the guitarist played the acoustic while I played the electic chords up top on the neck. Good times, bad band. It's also awesome when combined with other LFO effects to give really lush movement to the bottom end, and it works well with distortion.

Anyway, good electrical condition, no PSU but works on 9v pedal board supply.

The pedal board purge continues - this time, the Neo Clone is up for sale. This is a nice little chorus pedal, great for guitar but works just as well on bass. No PSU, but runs off your friendly neighbourhood 9v pedal board suppy.

Hey everyone,

I've no musical projects on at the moment, so it's time to thin the pedal board. This Q-Tron is a load of fun to play with, it's great for funk and psychodelia, it also works really well with distortion pedals, octive pedals and LFO based effects to produce synth type tones.

It's in gigged condition, electically sound but the front decal has some minor wear / added mojo from use. No PSU, but it runs just fine from a regular 9v pedal board supply.

Hi everyone,

The time has come to move on some toys I no longer play with. I've no musical projects on he go at the moment, so this awesome pedal was locked away in my pedalboard flightcase and has been for some time.

It's the very well regarded OC-3, in good gigged condition. Electrically it is perfect, but it has some superficial paint chips. I'm afraid I don't have a box or PSU for it, but it works just fine off of a regular 9v supply. There are two stips of velcro on the bottom, ready to be stuck to your board of choice.

Price is £75 plus shipping, or I can meet you in York if you're local.

EDIT: Dropped the price to £60. It's without a box and it's been used, so £60 is a better price for it.

Cheers guys!

Hey everyone, 

I wanted to say hi before I start posting again. I've been away from the site, looking after real world stuff for a bit. Life got tricky, and it demanded all my attention for a bit.

I've been playing bass for about 25 years now, it's always been there in the background. Like many of us, I've accumulated a bunch of paraphernalia, but since I've all my music projects are on hold, I'll be moving on all the stuff I've no real attachment to.

On 27/08/2018 at 22:30, LukeFRC said:

.... and the FOH is coming from the DI box the tech uses...

They put bass through the FOH??!! Thats news to me!

11 hours ago, Japhet said:

I've found the electrics in some venues can cause a lot of hum from my amp and on a couple of occasions running my pedal board through the effects loop has helped. As a rule I run the pedal board before the input though.

Are you using a daisy chain power supply, or one where each pedal is isolated from the rest? Do any of your pedals need a ground, or are they all ground lifted? Eliminating ground loops is something I'm reading about at the moment.

40 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

I think it’s true for all amps of all classes. It’s more a point that if you are comparing a 100w valve amp pushed to gentle distortion and with some nice musical compression it might very well sound louder than a 400w Markbass LM11 which will have comparative little distortion until it hits its limiter. 

I think I’m with Muzz - in an ideal world valve amps sound nice so we might all have them - then you want something solid state and you can get lighter and debatedly cheaper to run amps, and you know what people design in different electronic designs to get different sounds... some of them might have a valve in the preamp but that alone doesn’t mean much... some valve preamps are super clean, others designed to add some pleasing valve distortion... but I don’t think having a valve or not is the point - do you like the sound of your Mesa walkabout or do you like the sound of your thunderfunk? I don’t think hybrid or not is the determining factor. Actually - if I wanted a more portable version of a valve amp a Line6 Helix into a FRFR speaker would be another viable option.

In some cases, such as some of the less expensive iphone docks that were popular a couple years ago, the preamp valve was nothing more than a marketting gimic. We know a large part of the valve tone comes from the interaction between the power pentodes, the output transformer, and the speakers, a single preamp triode won't simulate that.

Yes, there is a psychoacoustic effect of all those nice harmonics. It doesn't necessarily matter how those harmonics are generated. But it's proven to be very difficult to get it dead on, in a way that not only gets the harmonic content right, but also the timing and phase of those harmonics. You don't only need to trick the ears of the listener, you need to trick the ears of the player, who is well within the feedback loop of ears to brain to bass to amp to speaker back to ears.

Interestingly, the best amps to play aren't necessarily the best amps for the mix.

3 hours ago, pete.young said:

An observation: my LMII is class AB and doesn't seem to add any audible distortion. Is this true for all class AB?

Hi Luke, it depends on how linear the amp is, or how soon the overdrive kicks in. But eventually, every amp of every class will hit the upper limit set by the supply rails, even the most linear. When that happens, theres nothing to stop it from clipping.

I suppose, if your amp had a limiter, then that could prevent this from happening.

"It's all I need" - never before have I heard these words on BC!

1 hour ago, discreet said:

Multiple basses are fine, but keeping a large and expensive Ampeg fridge just for home use is not!

 I clearly didn't get the memo. I nearly have as many amps as I do guitars.

47 minutes ago, Muzz said:

I don't mean to be dismissive, it's just it's been done an awful lot, on all sorts of threads whether they start off that way or not (and it's become quite snippy sometimes, too, as fanbois of all kidney clash antlers), and what it boils down to is every type of amp, whether it's all solid-state, or hybrid, or reverse-hybrid (by which I mean solid state tone stack and valve power) or full valve, will have its fans, and a lot of that will be dictated by personal GAS/brand loyalty (people who always wanted an Ampeg/Mesa/whatever), personal circumstances (size and weight for gigging, ageing backs, etc), folk who can really hear the difference and to whom it's very important, and of course good old implicit peer pressure, marketing and fashion.

If there weren't people who like valve and hybrid kit, it wouldn't sell, but if you're thinking in any sort of commercial terms, this place is a microcosm of cork-sniffers (and I don't mean that in a negative sense: the level of technical knowledge, experience and, for want of a better word, connoisseur accessible here is very high indeed) and is dwarfed by the number of bassists out there who, for example, buy Ashdown (or Fender or Peavey or Markbass, etc...) because it's out there in the shops and on stages, and they can get a sound/volume out of it they like, without analysing it anywhere near as much as folk on here (and I'm including myself here) do.

On the numbers font, I think in terms of a lot of the buying public, an 800w Class D amp LOOKS louder than a 200w valve amp, and that (along with the fact that the new 800w Class D output stages really deliver) is what sells. Similarly, with cabs, there's no NEED any more (see the FRFR-Killing-Rock-N-Roll-one-slipped-disc-at-a-time thread) for a big stack of 8x10s or 2x412s down the Fox and Gynecologist, and all the logistical hoohah that entails, but people still love the look and will do awhile yet.

Thats fair enough. I've been away for a while, and have missed out on shifts in the BC culture during that time, and what has and hasn't been flogged to death. When I used to read the Luthiers Corner on Talk Bass, there were sigh inducing reruns of tonewood discussions almost weekly,  with as much misinformation circulating as there are on the merits of values vs transistors.

The very reason I came here to guage the general feeling of valve kit, is that the BC bunch do sniff the corks, they are the kind of players who enjoy experimenting with top of the range kit, and they are a good representation of the kinds of players a small boutique company would target. The premium kit is subject to fashion, and fashion changes over time. I just wanted to check that valves and hybrids haven't gone out of fashion, because that would be a real shame.

They're also a really nice bunch who are happy to share their experiences, of which we have amongst us a huge stockpile.

2 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

I think that the phycoacoustic effects are the crux of the issue. All amplifiers are amplifying a signal - if all worked perfectly then there would be no difference between them - so the bits we are hearing that form a preference are the deficiencies from perfection. 

I think comparing like for like distortion levels is one of the key things- someone earlier compared a 300w valve ashdown with a solid state of the same preamp and said there wasn’t much difference between them as they weren’t pushing the valve power stage enough... 

if I took a solid state amp and added some pleasing distortion and some gentle compression like you would get in an all valve amp would you tell the difference? (Which I guess is part of the point of hybrid amps) 

silmiarly class D get a bad press as when turned up beyond the clean limits a class AB adds distortion (which make it seem louder) where as a class D just runs out of power. Hence “class D has no heft” is as much about the phycoacoustic effects as the amplification system. 

Hi Luke. I don't think anything you said was wrong, but I do believe that the power output of class D amps is calculated differently, and therefore is inflated relative to how valve amps are rated.

I do believe valve amps are rated at continous sine wave output, as that is how the output stages of radios were tested back in the 50s. The limit for any amp is how much juice the power supply can, erm, supply. In class AB, this sets the maximum voltage swing, but also how that voltage sags as current is drawn. If the voltage doesn't sag, then the power output can be maintained infedinitely.

The rating system changed sometime in the 70s or 80s, and things like peak power output were invented to make hi-fi amps seem louder on paper. Some of this would have leaked into instrument amp specs, as transistor output stages became popular. I'm going to have to google "peak programme" and remind myself of all of this.

Then class D came along, and they are complicated beasts. OEMs buy their output boards wholesale, meaning that they have very little control over what is in their amps. If they use a 300 watt board originally designed for a car stereo, then they'll rate their amp at 300 watts. It may be able to handle very short bursts of 300 watts during the loud sections of classical music, but it couldn't keep that up if the signal was all bass guitar.

So, I don't think we are comparing like for like, even if we remove the effects of how valves compress as they are driven into clipping.

I'd also point out that modern valves don't kick out as much juice as NOS valves do. A 6550 pair, with 600 volts on the anode and 300 volts on the screen, dring a 5k anode to anode load, used to output 100 watts. If you use modern valves, you'll get around 70 watts, you need to increase the screen voltage to 400 volts to get the full 100 watt output, and that would be very hard on the valves. Even so, modern amp builders still rate their amps as if they had NOS valves, even though they don't ship with them. Your 100 watt amp is actually kicking out 70 watts, and it's still louder than a 300 watt class D.

6 hours ago, xgsjx said:

There’s some great tube emulators out there for pre amps that can sound identical to tube preamps, but there’s the visual side of tubes. 

As for power sections, tubes do sound different. 

I loved my all solid state MarkBass amp. I also love the sound & look of my Radiovox amp, but it weighs more than my car and has no DI. 

I could do with another light amp for most gigs. 

Hi xgsjx, would you find any amp more useful with a DI? What is your opinion on effects loops, yes or no? If yes, what do you use them for?

Cheers!

5 hours ago, discreet said:

Preference is one thing, practicalities are another. IME you just can't beat a 70s P Bass through an Ampeg SVT-CL and an 8X10. This is my preference. But for various (and very good) reasons I actually use a small Class D Combo. Life is full of compromise...

You can own something nice, and only bring it out for special occasions. Many of us here have several basses, and play them all, even though we might only use the one for live work.

5 hours ago, Muzz said:

This is an emotive and subjective a topic as 'Jazz or Precision?' or even 'Rock or Jazz?', and as pointless as either. It's entirely down to what each person wants from an amp,  what they can hear (or what they think they can hear) or not, and what they ultimately want to own. And let's not forget the cabs, too, which can colour the output of any amp...

Hi Muzz, I agree it's subjective, which is why I'm asking for people's opinions. I want to know if there are people out there who do like valve and hybrid kit.

I'm sorry you're not finding this conversation it useful, I can assure you that I am.  Hopefully, I'll be able to explain why in a few weeks.

28 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

In this test Are you measuring it to achieve the same level of distortion? 

You're touching on psychoacoustic effects there.

A real experiment would have to be very complicated. But as a starter for 10, you could connect a 4 ohm dummy load across the output, and connect a a 440hz square wave from a function generator to the input. That way, clipping will have minimal effect - the signal is already clipped. Increase the input until the voltage across the output doesn't increase any further.

The voltage across the dummy load squared divided by 4 would then tell you how much power the amp is putting out at 440hz. Ideally, you'd repeast at 220, 110 and 55hz to get a fuller picture.

This will give you continuous power output. To get peak power output, you would have to drive the input with pulses of waveform.

It's not perfect, but it would give you an idea of how the two amps fare objectively. I wouldn't be surprised if the class AB amp does better in continuous output, by quite a margin.

21 minutes ago, artisan said:

Gigged my CTM100 through my fender bassman neo 410 on a pretty big outdoor stage this afternoon.

Input gain at 10 o'clock & master at 3 o'clock & it was bloody loud on stage, awesome trouser flapping  sound too,you'll never get that from a class D.

Plus the valves react to how you play beautifully.

 

Thanks Artisan! Thats exactly the feedback I wanted to hear. I wanted to know that there are at least some people out there who "get" the value amp thing. OK, now I'm showing my bias, I'm also a valve guy.

12 hours ago, Merton said:

Yep. At full tilt I have no doubt there would be far more significant sonic differences. And as you say, full tilt would probably destroy most of my house

A 30 watt amp is feaking loud when cranked in your front room. 200 watts would show up on the Richter scale.

EBS used to make a 90 watt all valve amp, that's likely the right number of watts to give enough loudness, whilst being on the edge of soft clipping. I wonder why they took it out of production? Are people not interested in valve kit any more? Do people not like to clean and jerk their heads onto their speaker stacks?

EDIT: I just checked, Ashdown do still make their CTM-100, but they've given up on the bigger valve amps. The 300 and "big block" 427 are long gone. Snarf.

2 hours ago, Merton said:

I’ve A/Bd the Ashdown ABM500 with their BTA200.

Identical preamp, the ABM has a solid state Class A/B power amp, whilst the BTA is a 200W KT88-driven valve power amp.

They sound almost the same. Almost. There was “something” different about the valve power section in the room but I’m buggered if I can explain it. I recorded them both on my iPhone (the pinnacle of sound recording technology) and couldn’t tell them apart.

Hey Mert. With a 200 watt power section, you might never have the chance to push it till it to compression. So, since both amps were in their linear range, that would explain why they sounded similar.

Pushing a 200 watt amp to clipping is face meltingly loud.

Hey everyone. I'd like to steer the conversation a little, if I may.

The excellent point has been brought up, that the technology and class of the amp isn't important, how it sounds is. I totally agree with this. We don't listen to technical specs, we listen to music. However, we can draw on our experience, we can say amps of that type tend to sound like this, and I like this sound, so I bought an amp of that type.

We've also ascertained that class D amps are quite popular, provided you can get one big enough for the job. Class D watts seem to be less loud than class AB watts.

I'd now like to discuss peoples experiences with valve amps, in particular if anyone has done an A / B comparrison of a transistor vs a valve amp. I'd like to get peoples ideas on the whole experience - not just the sound, but the whole feeling of playing through valves. How they respond and how the sound interacts with your playing.

Is there truth to the idea that valve amps are more "interactive," is the mojo real or just in the mind of the player? Is the real thing better than simulated tubes, or are the sims just as good?

Final question, for now at least - would people considder buying an amp with a nice tone for studio use, or as a bedroom blaster, and maybe have a bigger but less nice amp for live work?

Kind of like having a nice classic bass that you don't let leave the house, for gigging you use the old beater bass? Us lot on here tend to like having nice things, even if they're impractical. Is a nice amp a thing that people want?

4 hours ago, Al Krow said:

@Mikey R I have no views on your third question (my Mesa M6 uses a 12Ax7 in the pre-amp), but I'm afraid your survey won't allow for just a couple of answers without the third, so manually:

1. My experience of a traditional hybrid in the form of my Mesa M6 is very positive. It's a deliciously sounding amp head and has a 'sparkle' to its tone that my purely D-class amp heads can't match unaided, but that's where pre-amp pedals can address at least some of the gap, right? e.g. @Lozz196 has achieved exactly what he's after with the Tech 21 Paradriver (v2 I believe).

2. Not tried a purely valve power section; I suspect they would be fantastic and I'd love to get my hands on a Mesa Prodigy 4-88, which is a snip at a mere £2,675 new (lol!) Purely transistor power stages really are more than good enough for my needs, though, and whilst I might (just) notice the difference when playing in a band mix, I'm not sure that my bandmates or the audience would? But it's kinda hypothetical for me in that my back absolutely would notice the difference! 

Fyi my D-class heads are a DG M900 and a Markbass LM3. I'd happily recommend either.

Cheers for the input Al! The poll is really there just to spark a bit of conversation. Your data point adds weight to my inference that class D amps are great, provided you get one big enough. I'm seeing recommendations from 500 watts up to around 900 watts for live use, whereas a couple hundred watts of class AB would previously have been fine.

I'd love the opportunity to compare them using a dB meter, against a tranny class AB and a valve AB amp of differing power outputs.

Oh, and also, valve amps can also be really clean. We associate them with grit, but they aren't all gritty.

Well, we know that class AB valve amps are loud for their rated output, relative to the same rated transistor AB amp. I've no doubt, if you compare a 100 watt valve bass amp with an 800 or 900 watt class D amp, then the class D will keep up. And, if you can't tell the difference in a band situation, then theres no reason not to go with the class D. 

I'm purposely not giving my opinion here, as althought I don't mind guiding the discussion, I dont want to overly influence it. Blood in my mouth beats blood on the ground... ;o)

9 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

 Most of the noise is from the bass itself. A good amp won't contribute much, especially past the input stage. Whether a loop is better placed before or after EQ and tone controls is up for debate, there are valid arguments for both.

I do believe my old Trace had a switch to let you choose where the EQ went in the chain.

But if you did want an amp that was so configurable that it could do everything for everybody, then it would be incredibly complicated and difficult to use, as well as expensive and potentially noisy. The Fender Cyber Twin died because of this.

I keep contrasting bass amps with guitar amps here, since both bass and guitar valve amps share a common ancestor, a lot of the technology is the same. Of the common classic bass amps, only the SVT really diverges from the topology used in guitar amps. I don't remember if the original SVT allowed you to plug stuff in between the preamp chassis and the power amp chassis, though I bet plenty of people would have made this mod if they'd have needed it.
 

2 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

Difficult one as my two fave amps are Ampeg SVT and Ashdown ABM, but with the ABM I keep the pre-amp valve off for live, only put it on when recording.

They can still both be quite gritty amps, with a bit of snarl when you push them hard. There's nothing that says transistors can't add grit, they just do it slightly differently.

1 hour ago, barkin said:

I like an amp to make a sound that I like. I don't care what's inside the box, or what the specs say.

Amen!
 

38 minutes ago, paul_5 said:

I run a valve pre (SVP PRO) into a Laney Solid State (weighty old toroidal transformer) and love it. It weighs less and costs less to maintain than an all-valve affair. 

Have you ever had the opportunity to compare your big old tranny power amp to a valve power amp? At a bass bash, maybe? Class AB transistor amps are a different beast again to class D amp, I've not yet played a class D that I liked.