Cuzzie

1 minute ago, Woodinblack said:

ah - ok. <walks slowly backwards out of the room>

Exits stage left quickly behind to join for a beverage

Just now, Woodinblack said:

I didn't follow all that - my point was more that Al seems to think if you say humbucker you think of a MM pickup, whereas I don't. i only think of that if someone says an MM type pickup.

It’s a long running Lockdown boredom infused battle for correctness

2 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Agreed - when someone says a humbucker I don't think of either a P or an MM type pickups, even though they both are.

Exactly, they both are  - it all started 55 million years ago when it was said a P pick up is not a humbucker, and i said thats incorrect and the rolling stone gathered moss

18 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I don't disagree that P pups can be hum-cancelling, for a minute.

My point is a very simple one: if you had a bass with P + MM set up and were to say to a bass player that "the bass has  P + Humbucker pups" folk would instantly know what you were talking about - he or she would be (rightly) imagining a P + MM pup set up.

If you said (also technically correctly in Cuzzie speak) that the bass had "two humbucker pups", I bet almost no one would immediately think that you were talking about a P + MM set up.

By doubling down on parlance and other stuff - Humbucker gate has become befuddled and entrenched - its not they they can be hum cancelling, they ARE hum cancelling/bucking.

Them being called a P pick up has never been in dispute.

The difference is the field of action between a split coil and an M type pick up, hence sonic differences aside from types of magnets, windings, pole pieces, positions etc.

2 minutes ago, Paul S said:

Exactly so.  each to their own.

Which is why I find it hard to understand when some folk react so negatively at the idea of taking a spare just because they don't.  Like the very possibility of a spare makes their gonads wither, or something.   

Mine are already Bill Withered-but totally agree

24 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

(sorry if I've misread the script by concurring Cuzzie, on this occassion lol!)

This is the road to rack and ruin but true enlightenment

17 minutes ago, scrumpymike said:

OK, so the pup swap is now on the back burner.  I was looking at a new Creamery '58 but according to their website there's a 45-day wait due to "covid restrictions causing limited access to the work-shop".  If that's the situation, I wouldn't risk putting any money up front.  Also, just fitted my first-ever set of TI Jazz Flats and am much happier with the way they sound.

TI’s are wonderful strings- glad you are finding a combo you like. Jaime does have a wait being a small operation - if i can make the SW bash I’ll bring my Precision with the Creamery’s in so you can have a good old play and then wipe down after of course! (The bass before anyone gets excited)

On 15/02/2021 at 11:53, Al Krow said:

Not disputing that P pups are often hum cancelling and, indeed, some J pups are too.

But "Humbuckers" in common parlance IMO are usually thought of as describing the soap bar variety shown below.

 And a P pup is generally referred to as a P pup (or reverse-P as appropriate) to denote its configuration and not as a "Humbucker".

That's all 😉

Found the text next to the picture you used in case you missed it, and aren’t soap bars usually a term reserved for another pick up rather than the M, just for parlance sake of course...................

6 minutes ago, shoulderpet said:

I would say this is generally true but there are some exceptions, the Seymour Duncan Spb-1 is scooped in the mids and there tone chart (B5 M4 T5)

APB-1 one as well - its really useful what they do alongside their pickups to give you a flavour of if it is your thing

This is a really difficult topic as its your ears that will completely govern this one.

I agree for sure on those Aggie pick ups and they seem to suit you from what you say.

Maybe look at how pick ups are potted or not is something that may have an effect.

Possibly you just like that rawness

45 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Haha it's not all about you, even if you are talking baloney some of the time!

I mean seriously, who calls a P pup anything other than a "P pup"?

Oh i dunno, a fool no doubt, don’t listen to a word they have to say

28 minutes ago, NancyJohnson said:

Bit of an odd come back. 

Look, I gigged for years with a variety of amps (generally heads, rarely combos) but only one at a time.  While I may have been fortunate, I never suffered amp loss either through breakdown or theft.  Considering reliability, I'm an advocate of you get what you pay for, buy carp, expect carp.  The OP didn't allude to what loss actually referred to.

Home insurance is never going to weigh in where breakdowns are concerned and the likelihood of Hastings et al paying out quickly (ie in a week) to cover loss by theft and replacement thereof is unlikely.  Thing is, a lot of small venues adopt gear sharing, so in that instance it's reasonable that another band will let you use their kit.  A lot of small venues also have backline available as well (although it might not be fit for purpose).  If you're in a wedding band (or something where you're the only band playing), you could feasibly go through FoH and hey let's face it, we live in networked times, there will always be someone who can loan you an amp until you're sorted. 

To be honest, it's nothing I'd be getting my panties in a twist about.  If the OP is concerned, a secondhand TC Electronic BH550 will suffice.  Tone print, loudish.  It's just whether the desire for a backup outweighs the desire to spend £400 on some small/portable.  Personally, after years of doing this, I wouldn't worry.  There's always a solution.

Maybe its poorly worded, poorly chosen example - the photographer is probably a better one, but it was more born out of the fact some people take extra stuff as a back up or insurance policy, and of course you don’t want to use it, because if you have to it means something of yours has broken and can be expensive to fix as per @Paul S identified.

There is always a solution, if you have a variety of solutions.....

I had a similar one but a 5 banger - very reasonable second hand!

20 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Or you could just DI through the PA

😁

Quite.........🤦🏾‍♂️

Even if I said go just PA no amp you’ll probably become Mary Mary and take the opposite view.

There are some posts on here outlining this is not always possible, that is the simple point being made

21 minutes ago, PlungerModerno said:

Ah. That makes more sense. The split P is more fiddly to assemble and set up quickly on a production floor and there are other downsides (more complex shape to route etc.).

Once you have a template - it will be no more fiddly really to rout (obviously machines do it now) and popping and wiring one in won’t be much more hassle either

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Home insurance is a tiny cost in comparison to the cost of your home. In that rare emergency, you can always simply DI into the PA and job done. 

Had a feeling this would come out, or maybe second home cost etc.

As said earlier it fully depends on what PA you are using - if it is vocal only and Bass will not /cannot go through then you should bring along a safety net. If your safety net is an extra ‘x’ number of pounds spent on a PA system for this eventuality then you are fine, or it could be spent on a spare amp.

You are also protecting your brand, band, future bookings and the people you are playing to.

There are a myriad or Possibilities depending what the circumstances, but it needs to be right for your and the venue’s set up.

If you want to quibble the home insurance example, how about a wedding Photographer - would you risk that because your camera has never crapped out you wouldn’t take a spare? If your camera failed then you could use your smart phone, borrow someone’s smart phone or small digital camera, or would you take a second camera?

A few bad reviews even off one event can hurt.

1 hour ago, NancyJohnson said:

I think this sums things up succinctly enough.

What about the guys who have carried and used a back up?

It may be the minority, but I would prefer (as I think we all would) to have home insurance and it never be used rather than think it’s never going to be used, don’t have it and then something awful happens and you are stuck.

5 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

Shall I try an experiment... I have a Warwick SSI that has what we are calling the 'reverse' P and I have the same model (a ltd 5th Anniversary bass) but with the standard non-reverse P pup (I'll measure the leading edge).  Point of note is that for some reason Warwick decided to slightly angle the pups... maybe they knew it would through up debates in years to come.    

Only problem is that though the two models are Streamers they aren't the same bass nor will they have the same strings, hence all things aren't really equal in a test. 

  

They probably had me doing the routing that day.......

20 minutes ago, Ricky Rioli said:

 When you reverse a split pick up either (a) the EA half moves a lot or (b) the DG half moves a lot or (c) both halves move a bit. Which of these is snake oil? They're all going to affect the tone to a degree.

Typically it will be ‘sold’ as having a tighter lower end on the EA, so i am more referring to the EA staying static and you are right the DG will shift moving more towards the ‘fuller’ end of the spectrum. 

As you say there will be a variance across the spectrum depending on what is being moved. With a reverse type line up you are making the DG sound a bit more like a 51P type bass

4 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

It's not standardised but it is possible to give an idea of what's going on which covers a substantial part of what different manufacturers are doing and remove much of the speculation. Personally, I find the reverse P more comfortable to play, for a start. There's also something very pleasing about that mixed PJ sound which isn't quite there with a traditionally positioned split P and J. But first, let's do some measuring.

I don't have a Fender P, the closest I have is an old Japanese Yamaha BB1100S. Other traditional P types are a Bass Collection SB311 and an Ibanez SB900. Measuring the distance from the 19th fret to the leading edge of the pickup, we find:

 

From what I could find digging around, it looks like the Fender P has the leading edge of the E-A coil positioned round 12.5cm from the 19th fret, which would put the D-G coil at around 15.5cm back. Someone be a dear and measure, if you have one. It would be interesting to see if Fender themselves are consistent across USA, Japanese and Mexican models.

Anyway, looking at the reverse P types to hand we see this:

 

The Charvel appears to be closest to the traditional Fender position but with the coils swapped around. The famous Warwick growl is coming from the pickups being much closer to the bridge than "standard" and the Warwick E string is read almost 5cm closer to the bridge than the Yamaha. It's a much greater difference than, for example, the 60's and 70's Jazz bridge pickup positions. If you think that makes a difference then surely there's more than snake oil?

As for disco and funk, you can do a comparison by listening to the first Chic album, recorded on a P, and the subsequent albums recorded on a Stringray. The leading edge of the Stringray pickup is, what, a little over 17cm from the 19th fret, so the E and A string is being read from even closer to the bridge than a Warwick SS1. Which tone stands out more?

 

 

 

Illustrates exactly what is going on - for reference my snake oil point was if someone reverses the appearance but leaves the pick up in the same place and tries to sell it as a true reverse which would be positional change as well

It’s like most people said it utterly depends on the venue and what kit is being used.

If the PA you have is vocals only, then the powered/amplified instruments need a back up solution.

Even If your amp is going through the PA, but is crucial to your tone/sound you need a viable alternative for failure which can come in all sorts of solutions.

Same with a bass for me - a double gig bag is barely anymore hassle than a single one - if my main one was active - I’d take a passive back up even though I check the battery just due to Sod’s law 

5 minutes ago, CameronJ said:

I think different manufacturers/brands approach this differently, which is why I dispute when people make blanket statements like “a reverse P is better!”

There is an obvious tonal difference between doing one and the other but it doesn’t seem to be standardised.

Exactly this - if your reversed P top split coil is on exactly the same place as the standard - it will sound pretty much the same and you have been sold snake oil just on appearances and hubris without Due diligence.

Something with a single J type pick up (which could of course be dual coil and humbucking) slanted either way would give a similar sound as you would expect.

How about an M type humbucker - you could have a Quadcoil in there and depending on how it’s wired flip between a standard and reverse setting or a straight up jazz.

I think a proper reverse P bringing it closer to the bridge is great in a PJ PM setting as it just tightens everything up just a tad to allow a great blend between the 2 as you wish

Noice and in Brizzle - GLWTS 

Keep us posted for sure, but the world is your oyster on this, someone will snap up those Black labels for sure which will offset the cost unless of course you want to keep them to return to stock for any further resale

1 minute ago, Cato said:

I'm very much a believer that in terms of tone pickup position is the number 1 factor, followed by pickup type and electronics.

Everything else, including body and neck materials has far less impact on overall tone than those three.

I strongly suspect that you could mold a P bass out of concrete and as long as it had the split P pickup in the correct place and the usual passive tone and volume it would still sound very much like a P Bass.

Might weigh less than plywood too.

Agree and disagree (only slightly) - it will sound like a P of course - I would pop the importance of the neck/fretboard pretty high along the list.

All things being equal when I exchange a graphite neck for a wooden one on what is exactly the same bass there is a difference for sure