mikel

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1501270899' post='3343790'] In that case you still have to up your game. You're not doing what the audience want. You have to change something or continue to play to empty rooms. Could be as simple as being more choosy about your venues but it's all part of musicianship and knowing your audience. [/quote] No, its just the wrong audience for the wrong band. Could be the promoters fault. Its getting the right band in the right place, nothing to do with being un professional or poorly prepared. If you are a well rehearsed Prog Rock band or a great modern Jazz outfit it would be difficult to wing it for a funky dance crowd. Or vice versa. Just cos the room empties does not always mean the band is not good at what they do.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1501257879' post='3343680'] Understood Cheap is a relative term. In my neck of the woods free is unheard-of out side of charities,benefits and the few originals clubs. Blue [/quote] Whatever, good luck man, and keep on keeping on.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1501245941' post='3343567'] You'll soon find out if the punted notice or not. They'll stop coming to your gigs. They'll walk out before your second set. You'll stop getting bookings. Even a band that plays for free won't get rebooked if they're not entertaining the audience. [/quote] That could also be down to song choice/genre etc. You could have a great Prog Rock band, but if the audience want to dance rather than listen they could walk. Horses for courses. Not always down to poor musicianship.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1501245198' post='3343553'] Well, I certainly don't think my band is any better musically than other regional bar bands, far from it. We are however IMO better at certain things like booking. We also have a young female front, lead guitarist and lead vocalist that sets us apart from many other blues/rock bar bands. She alone keeps us away from what I call " 4 old guys on stage" syndrome. We're also drama free and ego free.The only time we see each other is at gigs. We don't take ourselves that seriously. I've been in bands that had drama and ego issues and IMO it's laughable and a big joke. Also the main reason many bands fall apart. BTW, you guys refer to drinks a lot. We don't see much of that at all. You get a DUI over here, your looking at 10 grand minimum after all is said and done. Blue [/quote] I wasnt saying you did think you were better, I was simply putting it from a gig or bar owners perspective. If they can get music cheap, or free, they can and will. Thats why you can plan everything to the max, but in the end its out of your hands.

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1501209465' post='3343343'] How much does she love the genre you play? How much does she really want to do it? If she wants it, she'll be able to break free from the dots. [/quote] /\ This. Surely someone that well trained could "Learn" the song, from the music. Then play without it. I find it odd that someone with that much musical training cant learn a few songs by rote. With that much experience they should not need to look at the keyboard so will be free to look at the leader for cues etc.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1501196295' post='3343335'] Well If anything I've learned that business is not my thing. I failed. I couldn't come up with anything. Blue [/quote] Worth the try though, mate. Probably because for musicians its not a "Business", its a calling. You could have the best bar band in the state but If a bar owner wants to put on a band who will play for nothing, Instead of your band that needs to earn to live, there is nothing you can do about it. You may believe your band is better , and worth there money, but If the bar owner thinks the punters will still get drunk and dance to a free, or cheaper band than yours, he will do it. The only "Music business" is run by the record companies and promoters.

The way I see it, you can do all the planning and have all the mission statements but the music business has never worked like: A to B to C to D to E = success and money. To me the music business works like: Talent..... Being in the right place at the right time,..... Luck,.........Longevity,.......Hard work = success and possibly, If you are really lucky, money. Put that business plan to a bank manager.

The only problem with all this planning and expenditure is.....its the music business, its art. You can have all the gear and all the musicians in place, but if the gig promoters and punters dont buy into it you are sunk. Oh, and 100k in debt. If you have the songs, on demo, and the music business likes them, everything else follows.

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1501078707' post='3342313'] ... and get sent away, as far as I'm concerned. The sound of my drums come from the resonant heads, not from any port, tuned or otherwise. Deal with it. [/quote] And me. Most of the tone comes from the rezo head and I refuse to put a hole in mine. Any decent sound guy should be able to simply amplify the sound a drum produces, within the limitations of the room and equipment.

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1501005919' post='3341744'] This seems to be a recurring pattern amongst many genres/areas, bass drum with no actual attack, just made ridiculously loud to compensate. At one gig we played I asked the sound man to add some top-end to the kick drum as our drummer is pretty fast, and all the other bands had a bass drum that was just booming and he said he "knew the room". So why make everyone sound sh*t then was my question (asked after we`d played, I do have some sense, sometimes). [/quote] Aye. Its strange that sound guys almost insist on a ported head on the BD "So they can get the sound of the drum", then make it sound like an electronic dance pulse.

Write, or know someone who can write, great songs. The rest follows. Its no secret that the vast majority of successful acts have great songs, thats how they become successful. If you have great songs the music business throws money and opportunity at you. The technology for making quality demmos is available to all so It can easily be done without you having to borrow anything. If you have the songs.

[quote name='Ross' timestamp='1311415330' post='1313629'] Seconded, as a pretty poor flautist (Although no classical training) Ian Anderson is my god, I'd love to be able to do what he does. Loving some of the bass parts as well. [/quote] Aye. Anderson was entirely self taught on the flute. He was trading a Strat for a mic, in a music shop, and there was cash left in the trade so he took the flute. Decades later his daughter was learning flute with a teacher and pointed out the fingering Ian was using was all wrong, so he re learned the technique. Didnt stop him coming up with all that great music in the 60s 70s 80s though. The legend is that the Strat originally belonged to Lemmy.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1501010088' post='3341791'] The point is that they're not working for anyone, they have their houses paid for, cash in the bank and decent pension, they can and do enjoy playing just like you but the ONLY difference is the don't HAVE to. [/quote] Got it in one.

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1501004325' post='3341732'] I can't comment about the indoor stuff, but I believe the outdoor gig had to be mixed from the stage. Nightmare. [/quote] Aye, the Shires gig was mixed just in front of our seats, so we had the best sound in the place. God knows what it was like in the rest of the hall. Outdoors was mixed from the stage but nowt to stop the sound engineer or the monitor mixer stepping out front to check what it sounds like.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1500999059' post='3341659'] I should have clarified my statement. I did not mean better in terms of ability or skill. I meant that some that[b] boast[/b] about not being in it for money come off as [b]thinking they're slightly better idealogically.[/b] Blue [/quote] I think you should stop digging now mate, while we can still see your head.

We were back in the Geordie Delta last week and took in the Americana music on Friday afternoon and evening. Had a great time and listened to some very good bands, but the music was spoiled to a certain extent by the FOH mix. It was a line array with subs and the bass drum sounded like woooom, no attack or delay just an electronic sounding noise that was so loud it made your chest rattle with every BD beat. I presume there may have been something wrong with the setup of the PA as when the bassist, who was playing an upright, hit a note around those frequencies it made the same muffled boomy noise. The rest of his undoubtedly great playing was inaudible. Anyway, enjoyed the afternoon immensely, despite the sonic overload by the dick on the mixer. In the evening we decamped to the Sage properly and took in the Stax Academy gig. Some wonderful performances by talented kids, and great to hear all the old Stax stuff again. Got tickets to see The Shires in the big hall at the Sage in the evening. I am not a big country fan and only know about two of there songs but they put on a great show and the musicianship was superb. Cant comment on the bassist as the main show had the same problem as the outdoor stuff, another over loud and indistinct BD sound. It completely drowned out the poor bassist and may as well have been a £100 Stixx kit for all the tone that was evident. They were session musos backing the duo so they had the best gear going and the drummer had an un drilled bass drum so he was obviously concerned about his sound. What is it with even pro sound guys? If I had been a band member I would have complained bitterly about the quality of the FOH sound. Bear in mind this was a big show by a best selling popular act playing to a sold out venue. Anyone else had experience of top line gigs being spoiled by a diabolical mix and way over the top BD sounds?

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1500937982' post='3341249'] Then you are a part of the far and few in between. And nothing is fact merely because I say something or you say something. [b]I get the sense that some think because they play for free they're slightly better than those of us that play for and depend on the money.[/b] Blue [/quote] Again, you are making assumptions. I did not say that, I said I would have loved to be able to make a living out of music, but could not. Being paid or not never enters my head. If it costs me to play a gig through expenses, etc, I will still give it 100%. If I was getting £1000 for the gig I would still not be able to give it any more effort or commitment. No one is taking a pop at anyone, certainly not for being lucky enough to make a living from music. Lighten up.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1500926747' post='3341157'] Sorry Dave, I agree with you on some topics, but not this issue. It's not about whether a musician wants or needs the money. Even people like me that work for ,want and need the money. I say bands like you seem to be describing are far and few in between. The members of my band outside of ne all have full time jobs, however they don't share your "don't need , don't want" position. [b]I can't accept the notion that those that make it a point to play for free approach the band management or performance the same way those of us do that are trying to scratch out a living.[/b] However, for those who don't need or want the money, I say, proceed. Nobody is stopping you. With all respect Blue [/quote] Accept it or not, Its a fact. I have never made a living from playing and now dont need to. I give 100% to my practice, rehearsals and gigs, always have and always will. Music means more to me than making money, while I was working I was always thinking about playing, writing, recording. If I could have made a living from music I would have, but It was not to be. I remain a very committed, passionate and well prepared semi pro, with the emphasis on pro. Dont assume that because someone is not being paid they are not taking it seriously, or not giving it 100%. I have seen many top pro bands going through the motions, and young pub bands nailing it.

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1500926452' post='3341155'] I'm not a fan of bass solos at all, especially that last more than 4 bars. [/quote] +1. I love the bass and I love playing the bass, but If asked to take a solo I always decline because it gives me no pleasure to play, or listen to one. I also play drums and hate drum solos with a passion.

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1500885830' post='3340742'] I communicate in metaphors. Think acting. Reading a script out loud is doing that and nothing more. The acting equivalent of Musicality would be in making the words mean something, communicating the emotions and intent of the author etc. One is mechanics, the other is Art. [/quote] This. Call it feel, empathy, groove, whatever. The great and even not so great players all have it and its got little to do with formal training, some of the best musicians I have ever played with over the last 50 odd years have been self taught and could not read music.

I would say, playing with other musicians is the key to becoming more "musical". You can play along to recordings, but you are still "playing along" ie following. Playing with others is helping to drive the music and bouncing off other musicians.

[quote name='subaudio' timestamp='1500821549' post='3340371'] My take on punters not noticing is that you can use that phrase to stop self torture over an honest mistake. Mistakes happen, we are human, although as a perfectionist that lesson is hard for me to learn, but life is better for it. What "the punters don't notice" isn't, is an excuse for not playing and preparing as best as you possibly can. A "dishonest" mistake would be not preparing properly and sounding sloppy, punters might not notice that if your lucky but your peers will and might not hire you for better gigs etc. and, you wont be developing as a musician in the way you should. [/quote] I never beat myself up over a mistake. I would beat myself up, big time, for playing poorly due to lack of preparation because I do have control over that. Control the controllable, the rest you cant influence.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1500147574' post='3335952'] Tipping, yeah it's really accepted in the States. I found out from a friend that use to cut hair where I get my hair cut, they get pissed if you don't tip at least $5.00 for a $15.00 haircut. Igrtit and I'm cool with it, I know the corporate hourly wage there is a joke. Blue [/quote] Tipping? Its a cultural thing I suppose. In Britain, and I am talking about myself here, people are paid to do a job, end of. If its in the service sector like restaurants etc, and they do a great job and go beyond what is expected then I will tip. I see it as a bonus for being exceptional, but I wont tip someone for simply doing the job. They get paid for that, as do I. Why not simply charge $20 for the haircut and pay the guy a decent wage? Its a con really.

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1499945063' post='3334693'] I see your point but i've found that the reality for many amatuer bands is that they simply don't have the same amount of time available to rehearse either at home after work or rehearsing with their band. One of the main differences i see is that a "professional" musician spends his days learning his material and has less distraction in life. If i was spending my days learning songs and perfecting my performance in general i would expect to be up there hitting all the right notes and interacting with my audience to ensure they have the best night of their lives. Sadly i don't have that time available but still strive to do the best i can. I learn from each gig to perfect for the next gig. I learned a fair bit from Blue's other post on "Stage Presence" that i need tp perfect so i'm learning all the time. Every day a school day. With regards putting on a professional show i agree with you and all bands should be aiming for a high standard. Dave [/quote] Exactly what I was saying. We are not all pro musicians but we can still have a professional attitude to playing, be it down the local pub or at a stadium gig. You give your best, If your best is only pretty good, but entertaining, then you have not taken the attitude that "The punters wont notice". Why do some find it difficult to grasp what I am saying?

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1499886624' post='3334357'] We will often see comments here on bass chat pushing the idea that punters don't notice the flaws in our shows. I recently saw 2 pro level shows, Ann Wilson from Heart & Peter Frampton. Both shows were outstanding. Production and the caliber of musicianship was outstanding. Do you think they got to that level of performance with a "punters can't tell the difference" attitude? [b]My point, none of us should use this "punters can't tell the difference" as an excuse for "shoddy" performances.[/b] Blue [/quote] You are telling me my post about punters being able to tell the difference is for another thread? A shoddy performance can also be leveled at a band simply going through the motions, rather than putting on an exciting show. Because punters "[b]Can[/b] tell the difference".