mikel

Hmmmm...dont know, that one looks like someone has had a go with a fret saw.

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1487363448' post='3239386'] BBC? Not me, Chief. Commercial sector. Finn Dave's the ex-BBC chap. In any event, I'm a great supporter of women in the workplace: they most of them work harder than men and they'll do the same job for less pay. It's a win-win situation. [/quote] Nice one mate, someone on here with a sense of humor.

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1487349420' post='3239224'] we seem to be mixing up a whole load of different issues and ideas here. Positive discrimination feels wrong, because it's making people select people for jobs, college places, whatever, based on a selection criteria that is not to do with being the best applicant. But it's sometimes a necessary evil when there are issues of institutional racism/sexism/ageism. The fictional example from Mikel is actually a good one to pick apart. The reason that the male applicant is deemed to be better than the female one is based on a range of factors,[b] one of which is experience. How is that relevant for the job[/b]? It's immediately discriminatory on the grounds of age - 50 year olds will have more experience than 25 year olds. If it's an industry in which women are chronically under represented then it's very likely that male applicants will have more experience than females so it adds the question of whether it's sexist. So to just demand "experience" with no context can be ageist and sexist, and becomes a barrier to entry. If however it's "experience of doing X, Y & Z because they will be a core part of doing the job" then it's completely reasonable to demand it. And worse than this, we don't realise we're doing it. We are a species of very limited imagination. We think that we are brilliant at our jobs, so we think that anybody like us will be brilliant at the job we are hiring for. We've got twenty years experience in the industry so clearly people with 20 years in the industry will be better than people with only five years in the industry. This is exactly why company boards are full of middle aged white men, because middle aged white men who make the appointments think that middle aged white men are brilliant at running companies. And there's this: [url="https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/oct/18/racism-discrimination-employment-undercover"]https://www.theguard...ment-undercover[/url] it's a few years old but it's a perennial chestnut that the media will update every few years - I recall seeing something very similar in the last couple of months. Add to this that studies have shown that diverse companies, the ones whose boards aren't full of middle aged white men, perform much better. Diversity of age sex and ethnicity isn't just token, it brings diversity of thinking and companies who embrace this tend to do better. Maybe Mikel needs to think about appointing the woman because it's time for some fresh ideas that yet another middle aged white man isn't going to bring. [/quote] You are simply being pedantic. It was a fictional situation and I stated [b]relevant[/b] experience, better qualification, and coming over much better in the second interview stage. I said nothing about age of applicants so again stop being pedantic. What would be the point of having lots of bricklaying experience at an interview for an electronics management position? It has to be relevant.Do keep up. I could just have easily have swapped the genders and percentages about and said the woman had the best qualifications etc and that's why I employed her, and made the same point, but that would not have given you anything to froth at the mouth about. But I dont have an axe to grind.

[quote name='Jungleman' timestamp='1487306557' post='3238793'] I recently bought a Flea Road Worn Jazz Bass, and couldn't be happier with its playability and tone. [/quote] What do they do to make it sound better, how do they "Road Wear" the tone?

[quote name='Daz39' timestamp='1487340484' post='3239136'] Several issues I think: Your last clause infers an inherent bias that the female would not be the outstanding candidate, by using 'or.' By creating scenarios where the minority is not the most qualified/suitable - you reinforce the belief that it is unfair to discriminate on their behalf. Also selecting 3 as the pool, and 1 as the female sets a bias against reversing the ratio - as 2 females would seem more unfair to a society where male dominance is normalised. That is the problem - that there is only 1 woman in the interview pool - not that you feel forced to choose one unfairly. Why do more men aspire to distance running? [/quote] Wrong on all counts, and it was a fictional scenario, so don't get in a twist. I don't actually have a business, really. First, I didnt say how many females were in the final 3. I said the male was the best candidate based on his interview, his experience and his qualifications. It is possible for a man to have better qualifications, despite what you think. So If thats the case who would you chose, the man cos he is the best candidate or the woman just cos she is a woman? If I had a business to run I would always chose the best person for the job, you can do what you like. Why do more men aspire to distance running?.............how the f**k should I know. I don't care, we are adults we make our own decisions.There are road, track and fell clubs for everyone. Oh sorry, some people would have too far to travel to run on the fells, now thats not strictly fair is it? Perhaps a re distribution of fells with a 50-50 split North and South would help. In my experience, and its fairly broad, suggests people run because they enjoy it and however good a coach I might be I cant force people to enjoy something. You may as well ask How long is a piece of string? This is a Bass forum, why do you play bass? Is it cos you like it and want to do it, or do you feel compelled to make up some statistical error in the cosmos?

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487336310' post='3239079'] Males and females are not that different. Hormones drive the way we feel and act and so certain activities will gain more men and some will gain more women. However that doesn't go anywhere close to why activities that neither sex have an advantage in are prodominatly one sex. [b]The current record holder for the double Bob Graham round is a woman. Women are better at long distance endurance events than men and yet there are more men involved[/b]. Why are there so few women racing drivers or footballers when they're much better than men? How do you explain ethnic minorities then? [/quote] I am well aware of the female's inherent endurance capability, being an endurance coach myself. Why are there more men involved? Because more men aspire to do it, nothing sinister. I coach at an athletics club and we currently have a 73% female bias, should we kick out some females so we can achieve the 50-50 that you espouse? If I own a business and decide I must have a 50-50 gender split, simply because the population may or may not be that, what do I do if someone leaves? Say there are 3 outstanding applicants who have got through the first interview stage for a top management job. Should I hire the woman, simply because of her gender, even though one of the men is better qualified, has more relevant experience and came over much better in the second interview, simply cos its a woman that left and it will maintain the status quo? Or do what is best for my business and go for the outstanding candidate, regardless of gender?

Is this the "I can think of a more obscure band than you competition?" Apologies, couldnt resist. I loved The Saw Doctors back in the 90s and have seen them 6 or 7 times. Irish Folk/Punk. They still record and tour. If you want a great night out go and see them.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487321305' post='3238859'] [b]Again everyone is missing the point.[/b] People only want to do things that fit into society's view of 'normal'. There are people who don't fit into society's box but we call them eccentrics. Choice is an illusion and is heavily influenced by what other people (and yourself) expect you to choose. Why don't any of you guys want to wear skirts? It's a simple question. Think about it. Then look around at jobs that are traditionally done by men and women and ask why men and women have 'chosen' to do those jobs. Why don't women choose to be in cover bands then? Statistics tell you everything about how things are distributed, they don't tell you why they're distributed or how to distribute them. . [/quote] What, except you? Probably because you are so much cleverer than we are. Why don't I wear a skirt on a regular basis? Because I don't like having cold legs, or having to keep my legs crossed, for modesty, every time I sit down. That's why. I have worn the kilt, for weddings, as I can wear the the Northumberland tartan. For everyday use I would find it irritating. What you fail to understand is that males and females are different. We think and act differently. Not better or worse, just different. Many learned papers have been produced trying to understand why, and failed. Perhaps its simply human nature. Humans are massively complex and elusive, it must drive statisticians bonkers that they cant put us tidily into any box. Lies, damn lies and statistics. Oh, and there are loads of covers bands round here with female members. We have two female singers in our band. My mate is the drummer in an otherwise all female band.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1487283241' post='3238709'] I live in a typically growing village, I suppose it has ........ Hang on I have googled this to see if I can find out before making my point, where I live we have hardly any ethnic minorities, if you set a play where I live you would need to have an all white cast. [url="https://www.citypopulation.de/php/uk-england-westmidlands.php?cityid=E34001879"]https://www.citypopu...ityid=E34001879[/url] How is that for an ageing white christian middle class place to live? EDIT to say I am not middle class, Christian and we are not sure about the white bit beyond one generation. [/quote] With you on that, my ancestors were Breton. Birmingham has less than 60% white middle class population, I guess if we want to get to the statistical norm we need to kick out a lot of people to comply with the required 3%. I wonder if thats why more than 3% of the Great Birmingham run are from ethnic minorities? beats me.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487279546' post='3238665'] But there should be an equal number of both sexes shouldn't there? If 3% of the population are black then that 3% should be represented in every activity. So yes. There is the proof. We don't live in an equal society. . [/quote] You have a very strange view of the world if you think everything is governed by statistics. I know it would be all neat and tidy that every business and every occupation had 3% ethnic minorities involved, because that is the population percentage,but people dont operate like that, humans do what they want or like to do not what statistics say they should.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487267760' post='3238533'] Nobody said anything about 'making sure'. I said expect. That's from the law of averages. [b]You would probably (if everything was equal) expect to see 50% of musicians to be women[/b]. Are they? There are certain activities that a large proportion of people don't do, not because they don't want to, or because they can't, but because no one expects them to. Including themselves. That's ingrained. If a man wants to wear a skirt, there's nothing in law that says he can't. The expectation is that he won't and if he does, people will question it, some people will even say it's wrong. Would I wear a skirt? No. Why? Because I think it is a piece of woman's clothing and I have no desire to wear one. But why do I think it's a piece of woman's clothing? Scotsmen wear kilts, and Hari Krishna monks wear dresses. It's been ingrained by society that men do not wear skirts. All MOBO does is give certain people some encouragement. [/quote] But everything isnt equal, or average. Firstly people have to want to do something, they have to aspire to it. Secondly you have people who do an activity but have no desire to take it to a competitive level or to even do it in public. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487238424' post='3238218'] [b]You would expect that 3% would be represented though.[/b] Positive discrimination is only there to try and redress the balance. Look at the London Marathon. Their stated aim is to have a 50:50 split of men and women. In order to do this they lower the time requirements for women disportianately. Look at any other marathon and it's full of men in their mid 40s women are very under represented. Why is this a problem? Why are women under represented? Is it because they're not interested in running? No. It's because they're interested in running but when they turn up to marathons it's an elitist activity and society says women are not as good as men. There was no women running London until 1981 and no women's marathon in the olympics until 1984! Women running marathons? How ridiculous. Compare this to how blacks were treated in the US, and are even now. It's part of society's institutionally ingrained attitudes. It's so deep that we all don't see it and posts like yours just illustrate that. [/quote] Why? There are lots of ethnic minorities in Britain, does every activity have to look at all the percentages and make sure every one is represented in everything, regardless of weather they want to be? Positive discrimination is still discrimination. It has nothing to do with my "Ingrained attitude" All popular music is MOBO, I have already pointed that out. Claiming the British have the same racial leanings as the most Redneck section of the US Southern States is also very wide of the mark. We are talking music here and from what I can see no one has any problem with black or ethnic musicians. I lived in rural France for two years and did not expect the populace to bend over backwards and modify there customs and lifestyle to accommodate me, I stood out because I was English, even amongst the black and ethnic minority French. Its peoples differences that make them interesting, imagine how boring the world would be if we all looked and spoke the same. If someone wants to make music, or run a marathon or swim the Atlantic, its there choice and there desire that will get them there, regardless of ethnicity or gender. Take Stevie Wonder. Not just black, but blind from birth. Did he become one of the most influential and best selling musicians of the late 20th century because of positive discrimination? No, he did it because he was highly talented and he had the desire and drive to get to the very top. Was he a great blind,black musician/ songwriter? No, he was a great musician/songwriter, period.

[quote name='lownote12' timestamp='1487251486' post='3238374'] +1 In my short time on your planet my first band as a bassist was a country dancing ceilidh band. And I'm a blues/ jazz man. But they were pulling down £250-300 a night every couple of weeks. And they weren't much good. The really good ceilidh band round here pulls up to a grand a night and has a busy diary. [/quote] Is this not another thread though? Like...."Would you rather be playing music you love, that challenges you, for petrol/break even money? Or just going through the motions and gritting your teeth, playing rubbish, for 100 quid a gig?" If we work on the assumption we already have a full time job I would always go for the former. If it was my only source of income then obviously I would go for the money and keep looking for a decent band.

[quote name='Daz39' timestamp='1487168083' post='3237705'] Every other awards are not exclusively MOBO awards - I think that's the best way to put it. Privilege blinds us to the discrimination that occurs -[b] If you look back at any awards across any media (film, tv, music etc.) that does not specifically focus on one group by colour, gender, race or religion - it has overwhelmingly favoured white, middle-class, western winners. Most of the judges have been from this group, most of the air/screentime has favoured this, and thus it favours these winners.[/b] If someone looks at the MOBOs and thinks 'where did all this music come from?' then that's the result of all of the above. It's always been there, but it has to meet higher expectations to compete. It's partly why Adele was complaining that Beyoncé ought to have won the Best Album Grammy (partly self-deprecating modesty too I imagine). [/quote] I have no time for bigots, but looking at your first comments.... If the awards are in Britain its hardly surprising as the country is mainly white, middle class, so the fact most of the judges and winners are the same is not a shock.

[quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1487146361' post='3237395'] I've always felt the same thing. I've been mulling this question over for about half hour now and virtually every bullet point I can think of makes me sound like a fanatical Nazi, which I'm not, by the way. [/quote] Aye, If you think about it almost all popular music is MOBO. The origins of popular music are Blues, Soul and Jazz to a greater or lesser extent.

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1487091758' post='3236979'] Is that inches tall or stones in weight? From an ad on Bandmix: [b][i][color=#101010]I'm looking for other members who are preferably no older than 30 (as im 22), who have similar taste musically and who are pretty openminded.[/color][/i][/b] [i][color=#101010] [/color][/i][i][color=#101010] [/color][/i] [/quote] I have no problem with that one, or any that mentions an age range. If we are doing it for fun, as most of us are probably semi pro, I think its works better if there is not a 40 year gap in the ages of band members. It can work fine musically but on the social side it can be difficult as interests outside music will probably be poles apart. Nothing to do with being a bigot or closed minded, just sensible. I mean, I am 65 but I am very fit and would have no problem keeping up with a bunch of 20 year olds, but what the hell would we talk about after rehearsals?

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1487098333' post='3237095'] Sorry, no. I'd never heard of him, and now having had a listen to a couple of his songs I know why. Not my kind of thing in the slightest. [/quote] Hey, who said you could walk all over other peoples fantasies. Get your own.

Yes, or as a second choice, Jethro Tull.

Didnt watch it cos awards are pointless as far as I am concerned. I like Adele, she has a great voice and writes most of her own material unlike most of the c**p in the charts now. She seemed to me to have worked hard to get where she is and I for one can see her singing Jazz and Blues in small clubs in 20 years time, cos she clearly loves singing.

Yep Mustang shorty. I love that bass tone. The look on her face, that nerdy haircut and the twitching left shoulder. Could be super cool, still cant make my mind up, and I remember watching it when it was first televised.

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1486740397' post='3234288'] We still speak [b]much of[/b] the original language and pronunciations. Geordie is not just an accent , [b]< comma [/b]its [b]an [/b]ancient language. [/quote] I was speaking Geordie, so Poo to you. And If you are going to be a real pedant it would be[b] and pronunciation,[/b] not pronunciations.

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1486737947' post='3234255'] problem is all those guys have their own sound engineers who know what they should sound like, [b]the rest of us have to use an in house sound man who has no idea (and probably doesn't care) what we want to sound like[/b] [/quote] That was my point exactly. So??? And those guys had there own sound dialed in well before the big gigs and big PAs came along.

[quote name='No lust in Jazz' timestamp='1486733690' post='3234201'] Unless you are a soloist, much of your sonic ideals will have to compete with, drums, guitars, keys and anything else that is in your band, I really want to be part of the [b]music[/b] that the band makes, rather than cut through it; on stage this starts with me hearing myself - the rest is down to the sound man who is mixing the [b]music[/b] - not just the bass. Well a P Bass may not be for everyone, but its a good point. [/quote] Hey, I have no solo pretensions and I doubt many have but look on the gear threads of this forum and tell me people are not particular about there sound. I am and I am also not interested in recording so the dual rig thing is bogus. Its the blend of instruments that make a sound and If we all used the same tone it would all pretty much sound the same. Sometimes its peoples differences that make it interesting. Everything from Glen Cornick, JJ Burnel to Chris Squire. Imagine if there sound guys had simply dialed there unique sounds out and made them generic bass tones live, cos it was easier. The OP is all about "Improving live tone".

[quote name='DangerDan' timestamp='1486726369' post='3234107'] Well, you don't, and can't. Unless you are going to step out into the crowd mid gig and then give your adjustments to the soundguy mid set, its really down to them as to how you will sound. It's their venue, they will know how it reacts to the sound we are trying to play out in it. They have to decide how to blend you with the rest of the band. What sounds good to you won't necessarily sound good FOH, when the place is full and the band are playing at volume. [/quote] I know all of that, but bassists spend lots of time and money to get just the sound they want. Just the right bass, strings, amp, cabs, speakers and pedals to produce there unique sound............and then leave what the audience hear up to the sound guy????? Why not save a fortune and buy a P Bass, a pre amp and in ears, cos thats what the FOH will make your top range kit sound like anyway?

[quote name='DangerDan' timestamp='1486722721' post='3234059'] The only problem with checking FOH sound during soundcheck is that an empty room doesn't sound the same as one full of punters.[b] There comes a point where you just have to trust the soundguy.[/b] [/quote] Unless you use the same sound guy every time how do you know he is producing just the bass sound YOU like out front? Unless you require a generic tone then you are ok.