andy67

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1421400965' post='2660703'] This is a way around it.... but I guess it depends on the manufacturer and..... some can easily do this, others cannot. It's also noted that the 'big online german store' will de-list a manufacturers product from it's site if there is no margin to be made over a period of time..... [/quote] Yes they do, the Mike Dirnt P is no longer available from das auto!

Edinburgh used to be a happening place for music and music shops but now its pretty awful. The cost of rent/rates in Edinburgh is horrendous and I do understand what this means for the local retailer. Edinburgh Council seem hell bent on charging more just because of our European Status and amount of tourism. I think there are 6 music shops left in Edinburgh, all populated by good guys who give great service. It seems places like Cash Generator and Cash Converters do cheaper musical instruments than the shops although they trade at the entry to mid level instrument. I do think though that this thread and a couple of others on this forum (General Discussion) provide some valuable info for shop owners and an incite from shop owners to musicians.

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][b]chris_b, on 09 January 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:[/b][/size][/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]It seems you don't get the costs and overhead argument.[/size][/font][/color] [quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1421247676' post='2658911'] Well said. Prime retail space is a massive premium. Check with an estate agent and see how much it is to rent a small ground-floor retail unit on the main thoroughfare in your local town. Compare it with the price of renting a warehouse on the periphery of the town. As discussed on another thread - Fender is an ever-more exclusive brand, due to their high minimum order, so any business selling them can be more brazen about the price they sell it at. As well as that - Fender (and most suppliers) will absolutely HATE their resellers to sell too cheap. The only time they'll be ok with it is through volume sales, which is usually easiest achieved with online sales. There's much more to it than a business owner being greedy and stubborn as to how much they make on a sale. [/quote] Really?? I never once called a business greedy but if the cap fits huh? And in terms of the argument, surely or given the times we live in, shops must find a way of reducing the price? £869 against £1067 (Mike Dirnt bass) is a huge difference. Considering most shops have an on-line presence surely same rules apply as to the likes of SoundsLive who sell it at the lower price? I have bought a lot from SL and have to say their service is first class imo. I don't want to see shops disappear but can't help think they are bringing it upon themselves.

Sure are! were they second hand or new? If they were new when bought, the $500 is equivalent to £331 whereas we would have to pay around £800 each for the two fenders.

Bit of a difference between 50% and 25% on immaculate!

[quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1420828527' post='2654031'] Where the mark up prices are made to look bad is when you look to trade something in and the dealer starts quoting "I only pay this much for a new one so can only offer you a quarter of that" Perfect example, I recently wanted out of my (totally mint) Hiwatt High Gain 100w head (current sale price between £900 and £1100) I wanted to trade for an Ampeg Pro 7 SVT (current sale price around £699) I was expecting to chuck £200 at the deal.....not a chance, PMT offered me £300 for the Hiwatt against an ex demo incomplete head, Richtone could only manage £200 against an ex demo, both shops quoting "it's what we can get them for and recent sale prices on Ebay" so exactly what mark up had they got in a £1000 head that only allows them to offer £250 as a trade in? Neither shop got my business, I sold the Hiwatt for £400.00 and brought a mint used, fight cased Pro 7 for £350.00, not been back to either shop since and now have no plans to, a big loser for PMT as I have spent close to £10.000 in there over the past five years (I know that because the guy inadvertently showed me my account screen!) [/quote] This is one example that really annoys me and causes much distress and distrust in the seller! I have seen me buying a guitar one week, attempting to trad it back less than one month later and being offered peanuts for it!

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1420810596' post='2653733'] Based on first hand experience, I can promise you that mark up is nowhere near 45% at street price (which is always much lower than the RRP). Additionally, when you purchase the item off the manufacturer, you pay a cost price EX VAT, so that's an extra 20% of the price you bought it for that you have to add on at store level just to cover your own costs/bills. That's before staffing overheads, premises rental and all the other etc. You're VERY lucky if the percentage is half of your quoted 45% on most items. [/quote]Again quite happy to be wrong, just enjoying the discussion.

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1420810255' post='2653721'] Your information is wrong Andy. The Moderators were discussing markups last year and, as an ex musical instrument retail person, I threw very similar figures to those that you've been using into the discussion. One of the other Mods currently works in the industry and queried where I'd got my figures from. The answer (which I got ribbed unmercifully for) was... 1984. Back then 30/40% on major items was the norm and some 'accessories' could have as much as 70%, because that was what the market was used to. Obviously, markup erosion to the current level didn't happen overnight, but it has happened. [/quote] Quite happy to be wrong, just going on info imparted to me from a rep.

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1420809076' post='2653692'] The independents have borne the brunt of technology in many areas and survival means reinvention. I saw a lovely bit of reinvention the other day. An old fashioned grocers shop, complete with all the shelves behind the counter (think Arkwright's) [b]but[/b] they'd joined one of those bulk buying groups (I think it was Nisa) that most independent convenience stores use in order to get the 'buying power'. They'd gone out of their way to select as many 'traditional' brands as they could, bought a bar and shelving from pubs that were closing, ripped out all their metal shelving and redecorated the place. It was mid afternoon but I had to wait to get served, and there were people waiting behind me. Reminded me of the shops when I was little® [/quote] I'd love that! Kinda similar example is, with most bars changing to the trendy wine bars making them pretty characterless, its lovely walking into an old fashioned type pub with a band playing in a tight corner.

[quote name='ead' timestamp='1420808698' post='2653677'] Not if it costs you £250 to buy one. [/quote] From information given, at the £300 mark, it would cost £180.

I've bought a lot from guitarguitar and soundcontrol. Red Dog Music in Edinburgh are a good bunch and I try to support them as much as possible. However, the range of basses for sale in shops all over Edinburgh is fairly limited meaning I use here or other places such as Facebook pages: North East Bass or Music Equipment Glasgow/Edinburgh.

[quote name='Weststarx' timestamp='1420802563' post='2653539'] I must admit I will always go try a guitar/bass in a shop if I can and then go and order it online somewhere cheaper. Some people probably see that as 'bad' but if I can get something £££s cheaper I will, its my money at the end of the day. The other issues guitar shops have is the lack of varied stock, if you want a Fender or Gibson thats great but if you want anything else you're having to order online anyway. Stock of bass guitars is even worse... [b]I wont be suprised to see guitar shops start closing over the years.[/b] [/quote] Sad to say but not far from the truth unfortunately. I remember being around music shops during the 70s and 80s, was brilliant almost like a social event, people chatting, playing, planning next gig, buying, getting shop credit, swapping. I really miss all that cos nowadays you go past a shop and you see very few people in.

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1420802419' post='2653535'] I believe the argument was talking about raw salary, not saving up money. I trust "pretty well paid" means you are making more than [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]£1067 a month. So a new Fender will cost you less than a month's salary, instead of the 3-4 months' worth alluded to back in the day.[/font][/color] [/quote] Yes quite correct, didn't look at it form that perspective. However, who could afford to buy from raw salary?

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1420801964' post='2653527'] But most manufacturers will have products that cover various retail points..... so they will obtain this business anyway. Just because they have a product you want at £500 but you really only want to pay £300 for isn't their problem [/quote] That's an example and not what I'm saying re the Standard P. I want a roadworn Mike Dirnt P but unprepared to pay £1067 for it, Isn't cash king?

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1420801586' post='2653517'] My local shop says that Thomann can sell at a price that they can't buy at..which has led to a few shops buying direct from Thomann. This is why some companies make their contract supply deals so watertight and are very hard if a shop betrays that sort of commitment, not to say, contract. Shops will try to match online, upto a point, but this is unfair, imo, as online doesn't have shop costs. I support shops as that is where you go to try the stuff.. so there is your premium. When there are no shops, then where do you try the stuff out. Buying a bass online...?? you have to be joking, IMO. [/quote] Bought my last bass from a shop, however, I'm sure you have bought S/H without trying?

I know how ridiculous the ipad/iphone/macbook cost to make and the margin added as there are many many programmes on TV and on-line which criticise Apple for this and highlighting the plight of their cheap workforce. However, bass gear is of interest and I want to keep the focus there. The demand thing though, surely selling 10 at £300 is better than seling 2 or 3 at £500?

The Fender thing, prices just went skyward on USA and custom shop in such a short time! I paid £700 for my first US P bass in 2007 now £1100 however, the Mex Standard P is as good quality as my first US P. Somethings just don't add up! Re the 25% perhaps realism is coming to the front. The 45% came through a discussion with a rep some years ago, won't name him as I don't drop and a few on here will know him. Great chat with him though. Re wanting discount on £10 - cannae help some people!

Believe me I do get the argument, I want to see people employed and would like to buy locally but not at £2-300 more however, you appear to have missed the point about the mark-up? It would take me around 8 months to save for a Fender and I'm pretty well paid. Once I find the article I'll post however, the article was stating that a Fender P (roadworn) cost $350 to make and assemble and then its marked up by 300% bit odd no? I disagree re equipment being cheaper particularly pro gear, cheap gear is cheap, China has definitely shaken that market up. The manufacturing process in Asia/Indonesia has improved dramatically making the cost more effective including the import

Want to start a discussion re instrument prices/pricing on both new and second hand. When visiting a local music shop recently, It came as quite a shock the price of a new fender, more specifically the road worn Mike Dirnt precision. I love the look of these basses and pretty much want one. New in shop, they cost £1067 however, on-line I can pick one up for £850. Still expensive but should shops start realising that, given the mark-up is already around the 45%, perhaps they should be more competitive with on-line retailers? I get the overheads and staff cost argument but again given the mark-up, does this really stand up to scrutiny? Given the state of the economy and marketplace, musicians and most buyers are fairly tight for money meaning equipment is more or less sitting in shops or warehouses right now so, why is gear so over priced? Surely a bit of realism in pricing and maybe lowering would see lots of gear shifted really quickly? I started looking at the second hand market and found some of the asking prices nothing short of ridiculous! Fender P new £1100 s/h £800, its no wonder they don't sell!! Again, equipment appears not to be moving as quickly due to most finding extra cash a little tight at the moment so, again, should sellers price their used gear more approriately? As with the above example, Fender seems the most ridiculous in the market. Look around the sites, pre-loved, gumtree, ebay or the more specialised sites and its staggering what some want! Why buy secondhand when for another £100 you could have new! Crazy times we live in ...