Bill Fitzmaurice

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1368696845' post='2080217'] Who is this grandad clown reviving these old threads? [/quote]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368666084' post='2080062'] Don't mistake watts for volume. They don't really relate. [/quote]+1. And, to answer the original question, the best BW made has only 4.8mm xmax. That limits it to perhaps 100w before farting out in the lows. There are BWs with as little as 1.2mm xmax, making them good for only 25w. Thermal watt ratings alone mean little, as do driver diameters.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368621958' post='2079283'] Only one octave away from a sensible bandwidth for electric bass though. [/quote]It's not the first time a manufacturer chose an inappropriate driver based purely on the thermal power rating and an inexpensive price. That tradition goes all the way back to Leo Fender.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368620389' post='2079249'] Think the theme is Orange use drivers for their watt ratings rather than their suitable for electric bass bandwidth. [/quote]+1. The 115 uses this driver: http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=EMIKAP15A&browsemode=category While it has a 450 watt thermal rating it will only take 100 watts in the low end before farting out. And note the price.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368537903' post='2078146'] which I have been assuming is why the 8x10 is a standard big stage accessory. [/quote]The 810, specifically the SVT, is the standard big stage box because they're simply loud enough to please virtually anyone. Rental companies don't want to have to stock a dozen brands, and almost no one complains about running through an SVT.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1368536916' post='2078126'] I've used a cab loaded with them, not much going on very high or low, but enough in the middle bit to work fine as a cab. [/quote]In other words, vintage tone. The thing about 'vintage tone' is that those of us who played in the 60s were never thrilled about it, not being able to stray below 'A' at a decent volume without farting out. The E string might as well have not been there for all the use you could get out of it. Given the penchant for guitar players to write songs in the key of E back then it led to very thin bass parts.

[quote name='apa' timestamp='1368474896' post='2077573'] Or should I just sell them on and start from scratch? [/quote]That. Unless you can get complete specs on them any cabinet build is a shot in the dark. [quote]Fundamental resonance was very high at 72Hz, so loads of low-mids but short on very low bass.[/quote]If that's the case they're really not well suited for electric bass.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1368101849' post='2073177'] Rather off topic, but in Europe at least there have been recent recommendations and defined standards using perceived loudness-based metering that are changing this, and will have knock-on effects for music production intended for commercial broadcast - if anyone's interested look up ITU BS.1770-3 and the earlier EBU R128. The old trick of overcompressing will potentially be quite counterproductive as the level will get dropped anyway. [/quote]One can get around that by fiddling with the frequency content, emphasizing the mids. You can't beat the marketeers. That's why I record what I want to watch and view it at a later date, so I can jump the commercials and regain the 20 minutes out of every viewing hour I'd otherwise lose to them.

[quote name='voxpop' timestamp='1368085854' post='2072898'] Think of it as being like the ads on telly. The peaks in volume are the same as the programmes but the average volume is raised because of the compression they apply to the sound. Great way of explaining SS v Valve loudness. [/quote]+1. Regulations say that commercials cannot be louder than the program. By using compression the maximum dB level isn't higher, but the content has higher density due to the loss of dynamic range, so it sounds louder. Not because the peaks are any higher, but because the valleys have been filled in.

[quote name='polyrythmmm' timestamp='1367924002' post='2070993'] Now if you guys could have a nice back and forth re: Apparent volume of tube watts versus SS, and how this manifests itself in the arena of driver calculations... ? ... [/quote]Nothing changes. The transfer function of tubes is different mainly due to their inherent compression; you can duplicate the effect with SS using the right signal processing. Speakers are dullards, they can't tell the difference between a volt that's tube versus SS sourced, so they'll give the same result in either case.

[quote name='Mikey R' timestamp='1367648271' post='2067863'] So why, as bassplayers, are we feeling the need for a half kilowatt stack for the low end? [/quote]To paraphrase Sir Edmund Hillary, "because they're there". In 1965 I bought a 50 watt Fender Bassman because it was what was available. If I could have bought a 500w ten pound Class D micro-amp instead, I would have.

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1365800014' post='2044826'] Are you sure about that Bill? I'm sure I remember bass drivers in the sidewinder range as well. [/quote]AFAIK there are no T/S specs anywhere for them, but they were supposedly a knock off of the EV SRO, which was a guitar/musical instrument driver, back before there was much differentiaton, if any, between guitar and bass drivers. I had an SRO 15, which was a monster guitar driver, able to split eardrums at 200 meters. On bass it would fart out at 40 watts.

They're guitar drivers.

Your only option is to use pliers to force it to turn. Hopefully if anything breaks it will be the plug and not the socket. I've never had this happen either but I've heard of there being some issues with knock-off Speakons. Only use genuine Neutrik.

[quote name='hunt the shunt' timestamp='1364651435' post='2029231'] What on earth do you think you will achieve adding a 1x15 to a kilowatt 8x10 rig??? [/quote]Good point. A 1x15 is a good addition to a 2x10. Adding one to an 8x10 is about as useful as putting a sail on a cigarette boat.

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1362662020' post='2002899'] I will say that this cab has the potential to be very bright (in an upper mids sort of way) though. I had to take a lot of upper mids out from the amp, to compensate. It was never a problem though, just a characteristic of the cab. Just shows how little of these frequencies most cabs put out maybe ? If I were really nit-picking, it would be nice to have a dial control on the cab to control the mid-driver output. [/quote]You're just hearing for the first time frequencies that your bass produces but your speakers were unable to reproduce. Once you get used to it you won't feel the need to reduce the sensitivity of the midrange driver, you'll just wonder how you ever got along without it. When it was being beta tested Roger asked my opinion of whether to add an LPad, as he saw that many testers automatically went to turn it down, even before turning the amp on, let alone hitting a single note, while setting all the EQ knobs at 12:00. Partly on my advice he didn't, and sure enough, eventually his beta testers figured out that those knobs are meant to be used, and once they had regained that long forgotten ability they found out that they really didn't need an LPad to get exactly the tone they wanted.

Fuzz and tweeters do not get along well. That's why guitar speakers don't have them.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1362570635' post='2001404'] Sealed should be stuffed. [/quote]Perhaps. If the cab is too small for the drivers within response will be boomy; stuffing the cab can reduce the boom. If the cab is the correct size for the drivers then lining alone is adequate. But most manufacturers use cabs that are too small, especially in the lower price range.

[quote name='BassHertz' timestamp='1362434615' post='1999851'] Do the manufacturers not bother with padding inside the cabinet anymore? [/quote]The ones who care how their speakers sound wouldn't dream of sending out cabs that aren't properly damped. Those who'd rather save the two quid that it costs to do it right, not so much.

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1362040160' post='1994748'] And, Bill, to pick up your point about midrange drivers, my next cab will definately have one. I just don't understand why they are not standard on bass cabs, even instead of a tweeter. It's down to cost and tradition I expect. [/quote]Tradition and cost. The first tweeters used were piezos, back around 1972. They were stuck in bass cabs because they were cheap and didn't need a crossover. Midranges weren't used because few existed capable of the job, and they required crossovers. Eventually dynamic tweeters with high pass filters, if not full blown crossovers, supplanted piezos, but midranges cost roughly twice as much, so they're seldom employed. The midranges we have at our disposal today render tweeters obsolete, but I wouldn't count on seeing them go away anytime soon.

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1361990753' post='1994150'] If I merely turn the tweeter control on the rear to minimum (at which point I can perceive no sound coming out of the horn), is that the same as actually disconnecting any crossover inside and wiring the woofers straight to the input ?[/quote]No. [quote]I assume there is a crossover inside which splits my signal into high and low frequencies, and sends the high to the horn, and the lows to the woofers. I have no idea of the crossover frequency in my cab as GK publish no info about this. My suspicion is that this frequency is significantly lower than the woofer's upper frequency output abilities[/quote] In most cases the opposite is true, they go to the tweeter an octave or so higher than where the woofer is useful. 4 to 5kHz is the usual range. That leaves a gaping hole in the response, and it's why midrange drivers should be used, at the least in concert with tweeters, if not replacing them. [quote]With the horn turned down on the rear and the signal being split by the crossover, am I right in assuming that the woofers don't receive a full range signal, therefore possibly sounding duller than if just connected them straight to the input[/quote]Probably not, see above. And even in those rare cases where a twelve has useful axial response above 3kHz none have useful off-axis response above 2kHz. [quote]I hope my waffle is understandable. The thing is, with the horn completely turned down, the tone is too bassy for my tastes [/quote]Don't turn it completely down. Use your amp EQ to control the highs.

[quote name='Tom Bowlus' timestamp='1361978280' post='1993951'] There are industry standards for measurement of amplifiers and cabs for both home audio and pro audio use, but there are not equivalent standards for musical instrument amps and cabs. I am sure that Bill will disagree with me, though. [/quote]The standard of how to measure speakers dates to the 1930s. A speaker is a speaker is a speaker, how it's used has no bearing on how it should be measured.

[quote name='Tom Bowlus' timestamp='1361974750' post='1993866'] That is not an accurate assessment of our testing procedure. Yes, we do test with one mic and we do not splice multiple measurements into one chart. [/quote]You may do so accurately with the speaker mounted in the wall of an anechoic chamber. You can duplicate that by going outdoors, digging a pit large enough to fit the speaker into facing upward, backfilling around the speaker to create a flush mounting, with the mic suspended far enough above to insure that the multiple wavefronts from multiple drivers are fully integrated. The two step process is a lot easier. The way you're doing it will not give an accurate result. [quote]We measure using 1 watt at 1 meter. [/quote]Measuring at one meter does not allow for integration of the wavefronts of the woofer and midrange. The result will be inaccurate, especially off-axis. Your charts show deep nulls in the off-axis that aren't there on-axis, and in the midrange and HF sensitivity at 15 degrees is higher than axial at some frequencies. Those inacurracies are the result of the mic being too close to the speaker. The low frequency response is also off, the result of the baffle reflection as line source when measured at too close a distance. [quote]From our perspective, we do not believe that the ML-112 measured "poorly."[/quote]Since your perspective would be compared to other cabs that you've measured using the same technique that's to be expected. The issue is that compared to speakers measured half-space anechoic with the mic at a proper distance the results are pretty bad, and could lead one who knows how to read SPL charts to think that the cab sounds pretty bad as well.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1361961039' post='1993556'] Ok...forget that you don't like the measurements.... if the buyer then decided he didn't like the sound, that would trump all technical data, to my mind anyway. And the the opposite would apply as well. IMO. [/quote]It's not a matter of what I like. There is a correct way to take measurements, and there's every other way. Bass Gear uses one of the other ways. If one bases their criticisms solely on those measurements, not having heard the cab, then those criticisms have no basis, either objective or subjective. [quote]How do you yourself rate your above behaviour as compared to the Roger Baer behaviour that you criticised so vocally? [/quote]His behavior is the same now as it has always been. He fancies himself an authority, and takes very opportunity to belittle those who actually make their livings doing what he wishes that he could. An internet bully, who can't expound on his own accomplishments if the field, as he has none, so he can only satisfy his ego by criticising those who are successful. I chose to ignore him a goodly five years back. I answered a few of his posts in this thread, in the hope that he was actually interested in learning something. You can see how well that turned out, so back onto my iggy list he has gone. Others, like Alex, have decided that it's just not worth their time being here at all, given the toxic atmosphere. AFAIK Roger is the only other manufacturer who has ever been here, and given the warm reception he's received I wouldn't be surprised if he also decided it's not worth it.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1361901971' post='1992810'] Is a lower than nominal impedance at 3kHz likely to cause much of a problem in a bass guitar application? [/quote]No. This is normal. If there was a dip below 5 ohms in the region where 75% of the power demands lie for electic bass it would be an issue, but that region lies below 500Hz.